RX 570 and 310W HP PSU

[emorales0411]

Can a RX 570 be underclocked to work with a 310W HP PSU?

 

I have been very close to buying a 1650 but reviews have held me back. I am upgrading from an RX 550 so either of these options would be a huge upgrade.

 

I really don't want to buy an overpriced HP PSU given I plan on rebuilding in the next year or two. That would basically wipe out any cost savings going with a discounted 570.

[Spotty]

4 minutes ago, emorales0411 said:

a 310W HP PSU?

What model HP PSU is it? Can you take a photo of the label on the PSU please.
Does the PSU have the required 6/8pin PCIe connector?
What CPU do you have?

[mariushm]

It depends on the PSU... see the amount of current it's produced on 12v

For example this Hipro SFF 310w psu can only output 204w on 12v (12v x 17a = 204w) which is too little for RX 570.

 

It also depends on the other components in the computer

 

A RX 570 consumes up to 175 watts ... you can reduce the frequencies and power budget to around 140-150 watts, maybe even less.

If the power supply can provide at least 150w for the video card and let's say 100w for the cpu,mb,hdd then it should be doable.

 

 

[Hotseff]

Just now, emorales0411 said:

Can a RX 570 be underclocked to work with a 310W HP PSU?

 

I have been very close to buying a 1650 but reviews have held me back. I am upgrading from an RX 550 so either of these options would be a huge upgrade.

 

I really don't want to buy an overpriced HP PSU given I plan on rebuilding in the next year or two. That would basically wipe out any cost savings going with a discounted 570.

First what is your system specs without your GPU so that we can figure out the total power consumption before the GPU and if the RX 570 doesn't work look into a 1650 since Newegg also has one on sale at the moment 

[emorales0411]

12 minutes ago, Spotty said:

What model HP PSU is it? Can you take a photo of the label on the PSU please.
Does the PSU have the required 6/8pin PCIe connector?
What CPU do you have?

HP Model: 690-0067c

CPU: Ryzen 7 1700

 

I am away from it at the moment but it does have a 6pin connector.

 

 

[Hotseff]

Just now, emorales0411 said:

HP Model: 690-0067c

CPU: Ryzen 7 1700

 

I am away from it at the moment but it does have a 6pin connector.

 

 

Does the system use the AMD Wraith Stealth Cooler or does it use something else?

[emorales0411]

1 minute ago, Hotseff said:

Does the system use the AMD Wraith Stealth Cooler or does it use something else?

No, it's stock. The only addition I have made to it was an NVMe M.2 boot drive.

 

[emorales0411]

This is the 570 I am looking at. https://www.amazon.com/PowerColor-570-AXRX-4GBD5-3DHD-OC/dp/B06ZYRRW9T/ref=sr_1_5?keywords=rx+570&qid=1557952165&s=gateway&sr=8-5

[mariushm]

I can't find any part number for the power supply used by HP in these models and the youtube videos don't help, they don't zoom on the power supply.

If you can, open the case and take a quality screenshot of the label on the power supply, or at least write down the numbers (voltage and current for 12v and 5v and 3.3v , maximum combined 5v+12v, and so on)

 

[emorales0411]

10 minutes ago, mariushm said:

I can't find any part number for the power supply used by HP in these models and the youtube videos don't help, they don't zoom on the power supply.

If you can, open the case and take a quality screenshot of the label on the power supply, or at least write down the numbers (voltage and current for 12v and 5v and 3.3v , maximum combined 5v+12v, and so on)

 

I'll confirm soon but I am pretty certain that this is the part number through HP, L03980-800. I am fairly certain the sticker picture at the bottom of this forum in the same PSU.

[Vejnemojnen]

undervolt it and set a lower power target...

[emorales0411]

3 hours ago, mariushm said:

I can't find any part number for the power supply used by HP in these models and the youtube videos don't help, they don't zoom on the power supply.

If you can, open the case and take a quality screenshot of the label on the power supply, or at least write down the numbers (voltage and current for 12v and 5v and 3.3v , maximum combined 5v+12v, and so on)

 

Here is the sticker.

[mariushm]

ok, so it can do 310w on 12v.

Your ryzen 1700 will consume up to 100w... an 1800x overclocked with 1.4v ... will reach 140w.

Non OC 1700 is unlikely to go over 100w. MB, HDD, RAM, etc ...let's say 30-40w

so you'll have more than 150w available for video card

A rx 570 with defaults will hit this... if you play with wattman/msi afterburner 120w or so is possible.

You'll have to buy an extension/adapter cable , for example a 2xmolex or 2x sata to pci-e 6+2 cable and basically splice the 12v and GND wires to existing wires, because i suspect your psu has no pci-e connectors

example cables: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIACJF5497357 , https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812196870

 

[Vejnemojnen]

really I'd just drop voltages on both cpu& gpu, even set a power target to a lower value. I'm assuming that the case is also a tight-smallish one with poor air flow, circulation. In that case, undervolting-slight underclocking can be advantageous not just because of lower power consumption, but heat generation as well...

[aisle9]

That right there is a proprietary motherboard with proprietary PSU connectors, meaning it's probably a proprietary power supply. eBay listings for it show a very proprietary form factor with very few connectors.

 

OP, best you can do is a 1650, which should work fine with that PSU and a 1700. You're not going to be able to plug the RX 570 into anything, and you can't replace the PSU with an off-the-shelf one because HP is run by a bag of dicks.

[emorales0411]

12 hours ago, mariushm said:

ok, so it can do 310w on 12v.

Your ryzen 1700 will consume up to 100w... an 1800x overclocked with 1.4v ... will reach 140w.

Non OC 1700 is unlikely to go over 100w. MB, HDD, RAM, etc ...let's say 30-40w

so you'll have more than 150w available for video card

A rx 570 with defaults will hit this... if you play with wattman/msi afterburner 120w or so is possible.

You'll have to buy an extension/adapter cable , for example a 2xmolex or 2x sata to pci-e 6+2 cable and basically splice the 12v and GND wires to existing wires, because i suspect your psu has no pci-e connectors

example cables: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIACJF5497357 , https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812196870

 

The psu has a spare 6 pin PCIe connector. So wouldn't this adapter work since all of the 570s I have found are 8 pin?

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAJX896X4944&Description=6 pin to 8 pin&cm_re=6_pin_to_8_pin-_-9SIAJX896X4944-_-Product

[emorales0411]

16 hours ago, Vejnemojnen said:

undervolt it and set a lower power target...

They are the ones who gave me that idea.

[emorales0411]

9 hours ago, Vejnemojnen said:

really I'd just drop voltages on both cpu& gpu, even set a power target to a lower value. I'm assuming that the case is also a tight-smallish one with poor air flow, circulation. In that case, undervolting-slight underclocking can be advantageous not just because of lower power consumption, but heat generation as well...

Yes, this case has very poor air flow but I am stuck with it for the time being.

[emorales0411]

13 hours ago, mariushm said:

ok, so it can do 310w on 12v.

Your ryzen 1700 will consume up to 100w... an 1800x overclocked with 1.4v ... will reach 140w.

Non OC 1700 is unlikely to go over 100w. MB, HDD, RAM, etc ...let's say 30-40w

so you'll have more than 150w available for video card

A rx 570 with defaults will hit this... if you play with wattman/msi afterburner 120w or so is possible.

You'll have to buy an extension/adapter cable , for example a 2xmolex or 2x sata to pci-e 6+2 cable and basically splice the 12v and GND wires to existing wires, because i suspect your psu has no pci-e connectors

example cables: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIACJF5497357 , https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812196870

 

Also, per CPU-Z the max TDP of my 1700 is 65W.

[mariushm]

TDP doesn't equal total power consumption. It's just a value that tells how big/good of a cooler to use, basically "the cooler must be able to handle at least 65w of dissipated heat"

Think of it like this:

CPU goes to 4 ghz for 5 seconds and consumes 80 watts. The temperature of the die (the chip surface) goes up to 90c, and the temperature of the cooler heatsink gradually goes up to 80 degrees celsius (because the heat transfer is slow)

For the next 10 seconds, the cpu will reduce its frequencies to 3.2 Ghz and will consume 50 watts... within a few seconds the heat will dissipate and the temperature of the die will go down to 70-80c, and the actual cooler heatsink temperature will go down to 60-70c.

Over the course of these 15 seconds, the cpu has consumed 5 x 80 + 10 x 50 = 400 + 500 = 900 watts, to get the 1s average you divide by 15s and you get 60 watts average dissipated power, which is below 65w...  I'm making it super simple but it's kinda like this.

 

Basically, the heatsink warm up and cool down is kind of elastic, it ramps up gradually and cools gradually, nothing is instant, there's a delay.

The processor can abuse this for very brief moments of time to get more performance, as long as over the long run, the amount of heat it produces stays within some value, for example that "65w worth of heat".

 

The TDP is basically that "peak" threshold of temperature - a 6 core 1600 and a 8 core 1700 are both 65w TDP rated, but doesn't mean they'll consume or produce the same amount of power. It may just mean AMD just doesn't want to create a new rating, like let's say "54w TDP" for 1600.

 

Also, don't forget about conversion inefficiencies.

The VRM is the voltage regulator circuit on the motherboard which converts 12v into the voltage cpu wants, which will vary depending on frequencies... could be between 0.7v and 1.4v

The efficiency will vary depending on the number of phases and the components used (mosfets, inductors etc). Typically, a VRM with few phases will be more efficient at low loads (like when cpu consumes 10-20w) and less efficient at high loads like 80-100w... a VRM with 6-8 phases will be more efficient at high loads

 

In your case, the motherboard is "optimized" for 65w TDP processors, and can only handle that much. It has a 4 phase VRM but because the VRM has no heatsink on them and they're probably using cheaper mosfets that heat more than high end (more expensive) ones, they limit the processors to the ones with maximum 65w TDP.

 

Estimate around 90% efficiency of conversion ... basically if the processor requires 60w to do it's job... that means those 60w were 90% of the total energy taken from power supply, which means the VRM circuit consumed around 67w

 

So basically I said 100w as a conservative, safe budget for the processor. Most likely you'll average at less. If need be, you probably can lower the maximum frequency by around 200 Mhz and you may be able to play with the maximum cpu voltage to reduce power consumption.

For example, the motherboard may choose to go the "safe" route and just set the cpu voltage to 1.3v or 1.35w which could be overkill for a Ryzen 1700.

You could set the default frequency to 2.8 Ghz (instead of 3 Ghz) and maximum boost to 3.5 Ghz instead of 3.7 Ghz and lower the maximum voltage to let's say 1.25v, maybe even 1.2v ... run tests and if everything's stable you can keep the voltage. That could shave 5-10w out of the cpu power consumption. If PC is not stable, you can raise the voltage a bit.

 

Now...  for the video card.

 

The video card will take some amount of power from the pci-e x16 slot  and some amount of energy from the pci-e 6pin / 8 pin connector.

In order for the video card to mention pci-e on the packaging, on advertising material, anywhere, the video card and the designer of the video card MUST follow the specifications which say

* the video card must not take more than 75w from the pci-e x16 slot (65w on 12v and 10w on 3.3v - 3.3v is barely used by most video cards, so you only care about that 65w number)

* the video card must not take more than 75w through a pci-e 6 pin connector, or 150w through a 8 pin connector.

 

Physically, there's no reason for a 6 pin connector to not carry more than 75w. In fact, the pins, the thickness of wires, everything makes them good for 9A per pair of wires... so the cable and the connector can carry 3 pairs x 9A per pair x 12v = 324 watts. However, for safety, redundancy and other reasons the people that made the pci-e standard decided to limit these connectors to 75w for pci-e 6 pin and 150w for pci-e 8pin version.

 

The companies that make the RX 570 cards know that depending on the default frequency of the cpu they decide on, and the amount of memory on the card and the default frequency of the video card memory, the power consumption will vary between let's say 140 watts and 175 watts.

It's usually too complicated (more expensive) to take both 12v and 3.3v from the pci-e x16 slot and mix them together to power things on the video card, so they mostly use only the 12v part, which is limited to 65w ... but typically, because there's so many cheap motherboards out there, you don't really want to go this high... so let's say the manufacturers aim to take only 50 watts from the pci-e x16 slot.

So you know the video card needs 140w...175w and you prefer to take only 50w or so from the pci-e x16 slot, which means you need 90w..125w from somewhere else. This range is obviously bigger than the maximum a pci-e 6 pin connector is allowed to transfer, so the video card manufacturer has no choice but to use an 8 pin connector on the video card.

They also have to keep in mind that end users may want to overclock the video card, so they have to add 20-50w to the maximum power budget and account for that... all the more reason for them to use a 8 pin connector.

 

Technically, as I explained, a video card could start with only a 6pin connector plugged into the 8 pin connector, because the pinouts are compatible. The extra 2 wires are ground wires...they're just used as a "key", a way for the video card to differentiate between a 6 pin and a 8 pin jack.

The video cards are supposed to check for the presence of those two extra ground wires - if they're not there, the video card will simply refuse to run because officially, it's not allowed to take the amount of power it needs.

Some video cards will run either way, with or without those extra wires - like I said above, it's perfectly safe and the amount of energy can be safely transferred into the video card even without those two extra wires.

 

So you can try running the video card with the 6pin pci-e connector and see if it works.  If it doesn't work, you'll have to either ADD that +2 part of a pci-e 6+2 connector to your power supply (cut the +2 bit from an extension cable or a broken power supply and connect the wires to ground wires on your power supply, black wires if your psu uses multiple color wires)

Or, you get a whole extension like the ones I linked above and splice the 8 pin connector to the existing wires.

 

 

 

In real world,  the blue and green are GRAY/BLACK... they're connected to ground. They wanted to add SENSE functionality, but it turned out power supply would have been too expensive to add sensing for each connector so they didn't do it, and they're all simply ground. 

 

If you don't want to modify the power supply, there's another way... you can modify your video card.

You can simply flip the video card on the back, and create a connection between the ground pins of the 8 pin connector. This way, no matter if you insert a 6pin or 8pin plug, those extra 2 pins are connected to the other ground pins permanently... you're tricking the video card to think you inserted a 8pin plug in it.

 

In the example below, it's a Sapphire RX 570 card... the row of pins on the side with that retainer clip has the ground pins, so you should easily see those 12v pins on a totally separate island of copper... you want to create a connection between all the ground pins (blue in the picture) to trick the video card into thinking you inserted a 8pin plug)

You have to be careful about connector, how it's placed... on some video cards the retainer clip may be on the other side... you can use a multimeter to determine the ground pins... with the multimeter set on continuity mode, place one probe on the bracket of the video card and one probe on the pins you think are ground... the meter will beep.

You can use a soldering iron and a bit of solder to link those pins together), or maybe even something more temporary like a high quality crayon (to create a conductive path between the pins)... if you're really patient, you could even just twist a bit of copper wire around the ground pins a couple of times to have a good connection between them.

 

 

 

 

 

[Stefan Payne]

6 hours ago, emorales0411 said:

The psu has a spare 6 pin PCIe connector. So wouldn't this adapter work since all of the 570s I have found are 8 pin?

https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIAJX896X4944&Description=6 pin to 8 pin&cm_re=6_pin_to_8_pin-_-9SIAJX896X4944-_-Product

You probably don't even need the Adaptor.

 

I tried that with my Powercolor RX480 Red Devil, wich also has an 8pin Connector and it works splendidly with only 6pin.