Reliability build

[Sorenson]

20 minutes ago, BigRom said:

Intel is expensive, unless you have a use case like Adobe or certain software that is visibly improved by having Intel. It makes no sense to go for an i5 as majority of those are overpriced af.

Yes, intel is more expensive. But OP is asking for "reliability build" not "cheapest" build. 

[LienusLateTips]

Just now, Sorenson said:

Yes, intel is more expensive. But OP is asking for "reliability build" not "cheapest" build. 

And AMD is equally as reliable. They will even have the same factory for low end parts soon! (TSMC)

[RobFRaschke]

2 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

The 860 evo (one of their cheapest SSDs) is MLC not "TLC" or "QLC" 

This guy is asking for a reliable build, and people are telling him to go with the cheapest shit available. 

Ok, here's where a MAJOR issue with NAND naming comes in. SLC is Single level Cell, or one bit per cell. MLC is Multi Level Cell, which just means it has more than one bit per cell. TLC is triple and QLC is quad, however those are both considered types of MLC because it's more than one bit per cell.

 

The 860 EVO uses V-NAND that stores 3 bits per cell, so it is TLC(triple level cell) which is a type of MLC.

 

The 950 PRO, 850 EVO and 961 series use 2 bit per cell MLC.

 

All modern SSDs have the capability of writing entire drives worth of data every day for the length of the warranty. So smaller writes per day will help it last MANY times longer than the 2 year warrant offered.

[Sorenson]

Just now, LienusLateTips said:

And AMD is equally as reliable. They will even have the same factory for low end parts soon! (TSMC)

True, but when an R5 2600 is $164, and an i5 9400f is $159 us, I’m going to recommend intel, unless the guy is a content creator. 

[RobFRaschke]

Just now, Sorenson said:

True, but when an R5 2600 is $164, and an i5 9400f is $159 us, I’m going to recommend intel, unless the guy is a content creator. 

Except, what is the price difference of the motherboard? That Ryzen 2600 can drop in a $60 board and have ALL the available features, probably 6 SATA ports and probably an M.2 port.

[LienusLateTips]

1 minute ago, Sorenson said:

True, but when an R5 2600 is $164, and an i5 9400f is $159 us, I’m going to recommend intel, unless the guy is a content creator. 

The Ryzen 5 2600 is more powerful. Boards, that can actually support upgrades are cheaper too, and the AMD processor doesn't come with a shitty, whiny cooler, it comes with one that's quite nice.

 

The Ryzen 5 1600 is only $119 right now, $89 at Microcentre, and is still, more powerful than the i5 9400F.

[Sorenson]

1 minute ago, LienusLateTips said:

The Ryzen 5 2600 is more powerful. Boards, that can actually support upgrades are cheaper too, and the AMD processor doesn't come with a shitty, whiny cooler, it comes with one that's quite nice.

 

The Ryzen 5 1600 is only $119 right now, $89 at Microcentre, and is still, more powerful than the i5 9400F.

I didn’t realize I was arguing with an AMD FAN (get it?) boy. Ryzen one has major memory compatibility issues, and the 2600 is only faster at multi core tasks like video editing. In every day tasks, the higher boost clocks of intel will be faster than Ryzen. I’m not shitting on Ryzen. If I built a computer for my self right now I would use Ryzen. But if I built one for my mom I would use intel.

 

@RobFRaschke you’re right, but as multiple reviews of TLC NAND have noted, it’s only an issue when you don’t have a VRAM cache. Do you really want your directory constantly being written to your SSD cells? When QLC was introduced it was recommended as the perfect cheap drive for billboard computers because of its cheap cost but low endurance.

[jerubedo]

There's no reason to get something more expensive than this while remaining reliable for your use case:

 

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	Intel - Pentium Gold G5400 3.7 GHz Dual-Core Processor	$74.89 @ OutletPC
Motherboard	Gigabyte - H310M A Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard	$55.99 @ Amazon
Memory	Patriot - 8 GB (2 x 4 GB) DDR4-2400 Memory	$39.99 @ Amazon
Storage	HP - EX900 500 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive	$57.99 @ Newegg
Case	DIYPC - DIY-F2-O MicroATX Mini Tower Case	$31.48 @ Newegg Business
Power Supply	Corsair - CX (2017) 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply	$32.98 @ Newegg
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total (before mail-in rebates)	$303.32
	Mail-in rebates	-$10.00
	Total	$293.32
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-05-04 00:39 EDT-0400

 

A 4 thread CPU, 8GB RAM, 500GB M.2 SSD, and a decent PSU.

[LienusLateTips]

3 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

I didn’t realize I was arguing with an AMD FAN (get it?) boy. Ryzen one has major memory compatibility issues, and the 2600 is only faster at multi core tasks like video editing. In every day tasks, the higher boost clocks of intel will be faster than Ryzen. I’m not shitting on Ryzen. If I built a computer for my self right now I would use Ryzen. But if I built one for my mom I would use intel.

I use a 8700K for my daily PC... I bought a 4460 previously and a 2400 before that... I've never owned a AMD CPU in my life except for client request when building PCs...

 

In every day tasks, you won't notice a difference, between either. The R5 1600 is cheaper. The boards are cheaper. I would go for a 1600, any day.

 

EDIT: Most memory issues have been fixed on Ryzen 1... I've never noticed a single problem with them.

[Stefan Payne]

36 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

Yes, intel is more expensive. But OP is asking for "reliability build" not "cheapest" build. 

Could you pls stop that shit/FUD?!

If you don't use cheap ass garbage hardware, that should never have been made or even sold, AMD is fine. Even in K7 Days.

 

The bad reputation comes from people beeing cheap and getting the cheapest shit -

• broken no name memory with errors garbage
• Codegen PSU (and other lowest quality 10-20€ PSU)
• and tiny heatsinks for Pentium 2 or Socket 370 CPUs.

 

If you want reliability, AMD is a BETTER choice because you can use ECC Memory with some Boards and Ryzen CPUs!

[RobFRaschke]

2 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

 

@RobFRaschke you’re right, but as multiple reviews of TLC NAND have noted, it’s only an issue when you don’t have a VRAM cache. Do you really want your directory constantly being written to your SSD cells? When QLC was introduced it was recommended as the perfect cheap drive for billboard computers because of its cheap cost but low endurance.

Ok, dude, you are more than welcome to be that un-necessarily skeptical of new technologies. I can't stop you. Have a good day sir.

[Stefan Payne]

10 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

Ryzen one has major memory compatibility issues

No, it doesn't (anymore).

And Intel also had some major Memory Issues. For example a Friend of mine has an X99 System and with his Gigabyte Board, Samsung B-Die don't work with some newer BIOS Versions.

A System Integrator told me that the issues they had with Ryzen launch were quite minor compared to Intel X99. But people don't talk about the Intel shit because Intel

 

 

The Real Problem were some lower end Boards that caused low memory speeds. The rest was fixed with BIOS Updates within the last 2 years since Ryzen was released in early 2017.

 

 

Also if you knew what Memory you should avoid (IIRC some Hynix Chips), you'd be fine as well.

So stop spreading misinformation!

 

 

10 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

In every day tasks, the higher boost clocks of intel will be faster than Ryzen.

And cause (way) higher Power Consumption than the AMD Chips as well.

The Average Power Consumption of the AMD systems is often also lower than comparable AMD Systems.

 

 

That's something people don' t mention these days because AMD is better.

 

 

10 minutes ago, Sorenson said:

I’m not shitting on Ryzen.

No, you're spreading misinformation that might or might not ahve happened more than 1,5 years ago.

 

Almost everything You said about AMD/Ryzen is not true and you are also hiding some facts as well - like the higher Power Consumption, the Bogus TDP from Intel that gets violated constantly.

 

[Stefan Payne]

3 minutes ago, valdyrgramr said:

PCPartPicker Part List

Type	Item	Price
CPU	AMD - Ryzen 3 2200G 3.5 GHz Quad-Core Processor	Purchased For $0.00
Motherboard	ASRock - B450 GAMING-ITX/AC Mini ITX AM4 Motherboard	$120.88 @ OutletPC
Memory	Team - Vulcan 8 GB (2 x 4 GB) DDR4-3000 Memory	$44.89 @ OutletPC
Storage	Crucial - MX500 500 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive	$69.85 @ OutletPC
Case	Fractal Design - Focus G Mini (Black) MicroATX Mini Tower Case	$50.03 @ Walmart
Power Supply	Corsair - CX (2017) 450 W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply	$32.98 @ Newegg
Optical Drive	LG - GH24NSC0B DVD/CD Writer	$18.88 @ OutletPC
	Prices include shipping, taxes, rebates, and discounts
	Total (before mail-in rebates)	$347.51
	Mail-in rebates	-$10.00
	Total	$337.51
	Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-05-04 01:01 EDT-0400

I agree with that, though 16 GiB can be a good idea for certain Office Tasks, especially if the PC should last longer.

 

If you want it small, an ASROCK A300 with SO-DIMM DDR4 is also an option - that's around 150€ for Motherboard, Case, PSU. And also comes with a Cooler. But the AMD 2200G Boxed Cooler can be modded to fit as well. Or you put a Noctua NH-L9a-AM4 inside.

 

 

With the ASROCK A300 an optical drive is not possible...

 

 

Power Consumption of such an AM4 APU System without GPU and only the minimum is around 20W Idle (or slightly lower) - primary, depends on the PSU and around 25-40W Youtube.

 

[Vejnemojnen]

I'd pick something like this:

- Asrock B450M Pro4 Motherboard

- 2x8 GB Gskill Aegis, Patriot Viper4, Corsair Vengeance LPX or similar dual channel ram kit, 3000Mhz or higher

- Ryzen3 2200G, 2400 don't really worth the surprice imho.

- BQ Pure Power 11 400w PSU

- 1tb HDD&512mb SSD& possibly another 250-500gb M2 SSD

- Some case.

 

The reason for going with 16gb ram is simple: when using cpu's IGP, you have to "donate" roughly 2 gb RAM to your IGP. So, well worth getting a 16gb kit, which costs only marginally more than 2x4 gib.

 

If I were you..

[jerubedo]

1 hour ago, Stefan Payne said:

And cause (way) higher Power Consumption than the AMD Chips as well.

The Average Power Consumption of the AMD systems is often also lower than comparable AMD Systems. 

 

 

That's something people don' t mention these days because AMD is better.

This simply isn't true. Look here, where every single test has the stock 8700K drawing less power than the stock 2600x, which is its on-paper competitor (6c/12t):

 

https://www.gamersnexus.net/hwreviews/3288-amd-r5-2600-2600x-review-stream-benchmarks-gaming-blender/page-3

 

Here's one such example out of 6 total:

 

[Stefan Payne]

13 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

This simply isn't true. Look here, where every single test has the stock 8700K drawing less power than the stock 2600x, which is its on-paper competitor (6c/12t):

Yes, it is true!

 

They used a Gigabyte X470 Gaming 7.

How does that Board compare to others?
I know for a fact that my ASUS X370-F Strix consumes 15-20W MORE than a Bistar X370GT7 or MSI B450I under all circumstances. Lets assume that Gigabyte is equal to my ASUS, that means that with a good/efficient Board its 20W less.

 

 

Look here:

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-7-2700x-review,5571-12.html

 

In Gaming Loop the Power Consumption of the 2700x is on par with the 8350K.

In Torture Loop the 2700X is on par with a 7600K.

 

And they used an MSI X470 Gaming M7 AC for 2700x, MSI Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon AC for the 8600(K) 400

For the 1800x, 1700(X) and 1600X they used an MSI X370 XPower Gaming Titanium.

 

 

If you don't know the Power Consumption of the Board in Comparisation with other AMD Boards, its useless, as I said, I measured 15-20W Difference to the Biostar and MSI with my ASUS X370-F Strix.

 

[jerubedo]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Yes, it is true!

 

They used a Gigabyte X470 Gaming 7. How does that Board compare to others?
I know for a fact that my ASUS X370-F Strix consumes 15-20W MORE than a Bistar X370GT7 or MSI B450I under all circumstances. Lets assume that Gigabyte is equal to my ASUS, that means that with a good/efficient Board its 20W less.

 

 

Look here:

https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/amd-ryzen-7-2700x-review,5571-12.html

 

In Gaming Loop the Power Consumption of the 2700x is on par with the 8350K.

In Torture Loop the 2700X is on par with a 7600K.

 

And they used an MSI X470 Gaming M7 AC for 2700x, MSI Z390 Gaming Pro Carbon AC for the 8600(K) 400

For the 1800x, 1700(X) and 1600X they used an MSI X370 XPower Gaming Titanium.

 

 

If you don't know the Power Consumption of the Board in Comparisation with other AMD Boards, its useless, as I said, I measured 15-20W Difference to the Biostar and MSI with my ASUS X370-F Strix.

 

And guess what people tend to use for AMD Testing? The Boards that consume the most...

 

 

 

 

For that Tom's article they aren't telling us how they are measuring that package wattage whereas Steve is (he's measuring the power draw on the 12v cable) and he's telling you which motherboards are being used where Tom's isn't. Steve also tends to test based on which boards people pairing with most often. So it's kind of a moot point if the X470 Gaming 7 is having the Ryzen chip draw more power if that's a board people are using. I mean, he's also using a Maximus board on the Intel side, which is also known to draw more power.

[Stefan Payne]

26 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

For that Tom's article they aren't telling us how they are measuring that package wattage

They do tell us what they use. 

You have been proven to be wrong and also you outed yourself as someone who doesn't argue in good faith as you didn't look at the Index of the Review. 

They even have "TEST SETUP" named in the Page.

 

The Test Setup and Measurement equipment is listed on Page 4. 

And I doubt that Steve Burke has THAT kind of Equipment.

 

 

Also they show AMD is more efficient and consume less than Intel while using MSI Motherboards, wich are known to be on the more effient side.

26 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

whereas Steve is (he's measuring the power draw on the 12v cable) and he's telling you which motherboards are being used where Tom's isn't.

Toms Hardware list the Setup in greater detail than Steve does not.

What you linked is a pretty bad listing of the Test Setup.

 

26 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

So it's kind of a moot point if the X470 Gaming 7 is having the Ryzen chip draw more power if that's a board people are using.

No, you're ignoring facts and cllaim things that are wrong.

 

Here some other measurements, though only in Idle:

https://www.planet3dnow.de/cms/38979-gigabyte-ax370-gaming-k5-vs-gigabyte-ax370-gaming-5/14/

 

 

The Biostar X370GT7 is way more efficent than the Gigabyte Gaming 5 wich is much worse.

26 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

I mean, he's also using a Maximus board on the Intel side, which is also known to draw more power.

Do you have any proof for your theory??

 

 

[jerubedo]

37 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

you outed yourself as someone who doesn't argue in good faith as you didn't look at the Index of the Review. 

Not really. That should have been on page 1 or on a page of its own, not lumped in on page 4 with overclocking and Spectre information. That's pretty easy to miss and I likely would not have seen it until you pointed it out.

 

37 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

And I doubt that Steve Burke has THAT kind of Equipment.

Steve's data is still king. He has perfectly capable equipment.

 

37 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

You have been proven to be wrong

No I have not. You just have a MASSIVE superiority complex like most men and are absolutely compelled to tell people that they are wrong if they say anything remotely negative about AMD.

 

37 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

No, you're ignoring facts and cllaim things that are wrong.

No I'm not. If people are using that X470 board, and they ARE, then that's the kind of power draw they'll see, period. You can't escape the facts even if you desperately want to. The facts are that many people purchase an X470 board like that and the data Steve has shown is representative of what they're going to see.

 

37 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Here some other measurements, though only in Idle:

We both know that idle measurements mean nothing.

[jerubedo]

@Stefan Payne

 

Here's some more data that agrees with the data I provided from Steve. So this is now 2 data sources vs the 1 you've shown:

 

https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-ryzen-7-2700x-review,7.html

 

EDIT:

 

a third source, again, showing the same thing:

 

https://pcper.com/reviews/Processors/Ryzen-7-2700X-and-Ryzen-5-2600X-Review-Zen-Matures/Power-Consumption-Overclocki-0

[Stefan Payne]

1 minute ago, jerubedo said:

Not really.

Yes, you have.

 

1 minute ago, jerubedo said:

That should have been on page 1 or on a page of its own, not lumped in on page 4 with overclocking and Spectre information. That's pretty easy to miss and I likely would not have seen it until you pointed it out.

That's your oppinion, not fact.

Fact is that it usually the last page before the Benchmark results.

And also:

 

No, that's not "easily missed".

 

1 minute ago, jerubedo said:

Steve's data is still king. He has perfectly capable equipment.

Oh and how does Steve compare to:

 

What Equipment does HE use?!

Why doesn't he list that in the Article or to an Article about "how we test"???

 

 

1 minute ago, jerubedo said:

No I have not. You just have a MASSIVE superiority complex like most men and are absolutely compelled to tell people that they are wrong if they say anything remotely negative about AMD.

Why you call me names?
I prove your claim wrong.

Tomshardware is a big site, that is said to have a slight bias against AMD and THEY show that AMD is more efficient.

 

I proved that there is a difference in Boards, 

I had a Biostar X370GT7 wich was replaced with an ASUS X370-F Strix.

The ASUS Strix takes about 15-20W more.

 

1 minute ago, jerubedo said:

No I'm not. If people are using that X470 board, and they ARE, then that's the kind of power draw they'll see, period.

X470 Board != X470 Board.

I was talking about X370 Boards and even between those I have seen a difference of 15-20W.

 

 

If you disagree, then show me data!

 

 

1 minute ago, jerubedo said:

You can't escape the facts even if you desperately want to. The facts are that many people purchase an X470 board like that and the data Steve has shown is representative of what they're going to see.

Where are the facts to back it up?!

I showed you a Review that disproves your claims.

Don't believe it?

Here's another one:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12625/amd-second-generation-ryzen-7-2700x-2700-ryzen-5-2600x-2600/8

 

IN that diagram they show the "Cores only" a power consumption of 85,13W for the 2700X (105W).

But 113,65W for the 8700K

Or in the other one 107.41W for the AMD, 122,29W for the Intel.

 

So yes, AMD is indeed more efficient.

 

 

[jerubedo]

2 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Why you call me names?

Show me where I called you a name, because I didn't. 

 

3 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Where are the facts to back it up?!

I showed you a Review that disproves your claims.

I've shown you 3 different sites that back it up: GamersNexus (Steve), 3DGuru, and Pc Perspective (PCPer). I'm sure I can find more if I really look.

[Stefan Payne]

4 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

Here's some more data that agrees with the data I provided from Steve. So this is now 2 data sources vs the 1 you've shown:

https://www.guru3d.com/articles-pages/amd-ryzen-7-2700x-review,7.html

And how did they measure it? Do they have some serious equipment?? And what Motherboard do they use??

Just stating "X470" is not helpful

 

4 minutes ago, jerubedo said:

a third source, again, showing the same thing:

https://pcper.com/reviews/Processors/Ryzen-7-2700X-and-Ryzen-5-2600X-Review-Zen-Matures/Power-Consumption-Overclocki-0

404...

Not even linking is your strong point...

 

But then again:

a) the owner of that site now works for Intel

b) ASUS Crosshair VII Hero 

 

Pls provide a Link to an Article that does NOT use an ASUS Board!

And what did they use for the Intel Setup??

[Stefan Payne]

Just now, jerubedo said:

I've shown you 3 different sites that back it up: GamersNexus (Steve), 3DGuru, and Pc Perspective (PCPer). I'm sure I can find more if I really look.

a) Gigabyte overclocking Motherboard

b) doesn't list the AMD Motherboard

c) ASUS Crosshair VII Hero

 

 

Now show me some with ASROCK or MSI MID RANGE Boards.

I showed you one...

And that shows higher efficiency on AMD.

Also this Anandtech does:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/12625/amd-second-generation-ryzen-7-2700x-2700-ryzen-5-2600x-2600/8

 

[jerubedo]

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

404...

Not even linking is your strong point...

It looks like the article is down right now. It was up just before. I'm sure it'll be up again soon.

 

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

But then again:

a) the owner of that site now works for Intel

b) ASUS Crosshair VII Hero 

More excuses for why this data is "bad." Uh-huh. There's always a reason with you.

 

4 minutes ago, Stefan Payne said:

Pls provide a Link to an Article that does NOT use an ASUS Board!

And what did they use for the Intel Setup??

You completely miss the point as usual. You're trying to find data only on specific boards where it'll show what you want. PEOPLE ARE BUYING THESE BOARDS. Asus is a big name. People will use them. This data will reflect their experience. Not everyone is going to buy the specific MSI board you want to see tested.