I am essentially as moral as pirates without being a "pirate"

[Fasauceome]

2 minutes ago, BetterThanLife said:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-watches-grey-market-idUSKBN17E2E8

From the article:

Quote

Though representatives of the biggest luxury watchmakers, including Swatch Group (UHR.S) and Richemont (CFR.S), refused to discuss their strategy with regard to the gray market, some manufacturers may find that it offers benefits.

“For every timepiece we sell, the manufacturer is getting the lion’s share of the profit, and then all the search engine queries, image searches, social media brand posts, tweets and pins are terrific and free (advertising),” said Darryl Randall, founder and owner of United States-based online platform SwissLuxury.com, which he said generates sales of about $10 million in good years

Yeah sure sounds like piracy

[Razor Blade]

Just now, BetterThanLife said:

If you understand logically what piracy bases it's principles on, then all intellectual property that was not paid to the creator by an individual is logically theft based on those principles.

The creator was paid with the initial purchase. There is nothing wrong with buying used hardware

[KarathKasun]

2 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

I definitely don't believe that to be the case, I have not seen any consideration of used goods to be piracy, especially in the cases of the goods outlined above. Used consoles and gaming hardware have never been contested as theft, and despite digital media becoming more common and convenient, I believe that it's in no way representative of an impetus to block potential used buyers from using goods. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the crack down on emulators by Nintendo, which isn't really related.

This is literally the #1 benefit from a business point of view going by cost analysis.

 

Maintaining content servers probably costs more than distributing 128gb flash drives with the software on it.

[BetterThanLife]

6 hours ago, fasauceome said:

From the article:

Yeah sure sounds like piracy

Well it is linked to intellectual property, it stretches an entire amazon of markets not just games, software and hardware, things work on the surface level differently but most of it comes down to 1 thing.

 

Money and profit.

 

6 hours ago, Razor Blade said:

The creator was paid with the initial purchase. There is nothing wrong with buying used hardware

And loses a customer to every second hand unit.

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, BetterThanLife said:

If you understand logically what piracy bases it's principles on, then all intellectual property that was not paid to the creator by an individual is logically theft based on those principles.

What is or isn't piracy is a pretty wide and not very well established subject and just conflating it as theft is both naive and short-sighted. Also, 2nd-hand market isn't theft.

[KarathKasun]

Just now, BetterThanLife said:

Well it is linked to intellectual property, it stretches an entire amazon of markets not just games, software and hardware, things work on the surface level differently but most of it comes down to 1 thing.

 

Money and profit.

Thats two things.

 

I would say its three things...

Profit

Sustainability

Image

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, WereCatf said:

What is or isn't piracy is a pretty wide and not very well established subject and just conflating it as theft is both naive and short-sighted. Also, 2nd-hand market isn't theft.

Well your point completely contradicts the piracy act.

[WereCatf]

Just now, BetterThanLife said:

Well your point completely contradicts the piracy act.

There is no "piracy act."

[Razor Blade]

2 minutes ago, BetterThanLife said:

And loses a customer to every second hand unit.

Not necessarily, it pushes the creator to come out with something better so they get sales of new hardware. Otherwise what incentive is there for someone to even sell their old gear if not to buy something newer?

 

It would really suck if Sony released Playstation from the late 90's and never came out with PS2,3, or 4.

[Fasauceome]

2 minutes ago, KarathKasun said:

This is literally the #1 benefit from a business point of view going by cost analysis.

 

Maintaining content servers probably costs more than distributing 128gb flash drives with the software on it.

Not really, because imagine Netflix distributing physical media I'm sure that would-

Oh wait, that made a lot less profit for them.

 

I highly doubt servers cost more than distributing media, but I'd be happy to know of some examples.

[BetterThanLife]

1 minute ago, Razor Blade said:

Not necessarily, it pushes the creator to come out with something better so they get sales of new hardware. Otherwise what incentive is there for someone to even sell their old gear?

 

It would really suck if Sony released Playstation from the late 90's and never came out with PS2,3, or 4.

What do you think moving to online marketplaces is?

 

They are removing this from the consumers.

 

The console market is the hardest to fight with though because people are used to discs.

[KarathKasun]

Just now, Razor Blade said:

Not necessarily, it pushes the creator to come out with something better so they get sales of new hardware. Otherwise what incentive is there for someone to even sell their old gear?

 

It would really suck if Sony released Playstation from the late 90's and never came out with PS2,3, or 4.

If they did that, they would make less money.  Not because of the lack of innovation, but because of the market saturation.

[BetterThanLife]

2 minutes ago, WereCatf said:

There is no "piracy act."

LOL?

 

SOPA.

ACT: VHS & DVD had it plastered all over them when loading up.

 

Games definitely have an act.

[Razor Blade]

Just now, BetterThanLife said:

What do you think moving to online marketplaces is?

 

They are removing this from the consumers.

 

The console market is the hardest to fight with though because people are used to discs.

I doubt that. It is very expensive to manufacturer physical media for one. Two it removes the horrible middle stage of getting a brand new game only to have to download a bunch of patches.

[KarathKasun]

1 minute ago, fasauceome said:

Not really, because imagine Netflix distributing physical media I'm sure that would-

Oh wait, that made a lot less profit for them.

 

I highly doubt servers cost more than distributing media, but I'd be happy to know of some examples.

That was due to the rental licensing system that was a carryover from the old video rental contract system.  The online only model allowed them to set new content licensing standards in their own favor.

 

IP creators loved it because of the implicit reduction in 1:1 copy creation.

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, Razor Blade said:

I doubt that. It is very expensive to manufacturer physical media for one. Two it removes the horrible middle stage of getting a brand new game only to have to download a bunch of patches.

You seem to be stuck in the details and missing the bigger picture.

 

Less cost to them, also makes the biggest profit ever, epic business strategy, LOL you really think they care about us?

 

I have a song for this.

 

 

 

[KarathKasun]

3 minutes ago, Razor Blade said:

I doubt that. It is very expensive to manufacturer physical media for one. Two it removes the horrible middle stage of getting a brand new game only to have to download a bunch of patches.

Physical media is dirt cheap.  Under 15c.  The whole package used to cost ~$1.  The Eco packaging used now is closer to 25c total.

 

Also, digital distribution does not help patching... FO76 for example.

[WereCatf]

Just now, BetterThanLife said:

SOPA.

ACT: VHS & DVD had it plastered all over them when loading up.

 

Games definitely have an act.

And? There is no single "piracy act" and certainly not one that defines 2nd-hand market as "piracy" or "theft." Yes, companies would like to stop all 2nd-hand market, but that doesn't make it "theft" or "piracy."

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, WereCatf said:

And? There is no single "piracy act" and certainly not one that defines 2nd-hand market as "piracy" or "theft." Yes, companies would like to stop all 2nd-hand market, but that doesn't make it "theft" or "piracy."

So you do agree with me then, thank you.

 

So morally, i am not any different to a "pirate"

 

Law is based upon morals. So the law and everything else is screwed up, when the domino falls, it hits everything else standing up next to it.

[Razor Blade]

Just now, KarathKasun said:

Physical media is dirt cheap.  Under 15c.  The whole package used to cost ~$1.  The Eco packaging used now is closer to 25c total.

Not as cheap as downloads. I don't know the real costs to publish a title and I doubt you do either. You not only have the disks, cases, and inserts you have to think about waste. As high speed internet is now in pretty much every corner of the marketed nations it makes less sense to spend the money making physical copies.

1 minute ago, BetterThanLife said:

You seem to be stuck in the details and missing the bigger picture.

 

Less cost to them, also makes the biggest profit ever, epic business strategy, LOL you really think they care about us?

 

I have a song for this.

 

 

 

From that it seems like you're just ranting about big business rather than trying to make a legitimate argument.

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, Razor Blade said:

Not as cheap as downloads. I don't know the real costs to publish a title and I doubt you do either. You not only have the disks, cases, and inserts you have to think about waste. As high speed internet is now in pretty much every corner of the marketed nations it makes less sense to spend the money making physical copies.

From that it seems like you're just ranting about big business rather than trying to make a legitimate argument.

It is a legitimate argument if you understand it.

[WereCatf]

Just now, BetterThanLife said:

So you do agree with me then, thank you.

No, I don't. You're constantly conflating things together that are not related and you're using terms "theft" and "piracy" and "act" in a wholly inconsistent and illogical manner.

 

2 minutes ago, BetterThanLife said:

So morally, i am not any different to a "pirate"

There is no single definition of what is or isn't a "pirate" so this statement is also entirely meaningless.

 

2 minutes ago, BetterThanLife said:

Law is based upon morals.

Laws mostly exist to benefit those in power and have very little to do with morals or ethics.

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, WereCatf said:

No, I don't. You're constantly conflating things together that are not related and you're using terms "theft" and "piracy" and "act" in a wholly inconsistent and illogical manner.

 

There is no single definition of what is or isn't a "pirate" so this statement is also entirely meaningless.

 

Laws mostly exist to benefit those in power and have very little to do with morals or ethics.

Pot calling kettles black : Bolded and underlined points.

 

They are completely linked.

 

Piracy is known as theft no matter what way you try to swing it.

[KarathKasun]

1 minute ago, Razor Blade said:

Not as cheap as downloads. I don't know the real costs to publish a title and I doubt you do either. You not only have the disks, cases, and inserts you have to think about waste. As high speed internet is now in pretty much every corner of the marketed nations it makes less sense to spend the money making physical copies.

From that it seems like you're just ranting about big business rather than trying to make a legitimate argument.

And with the convenience, and not to mention increased profit for the company, you no longer have a physical copy and your access can be removed at any time.  The negative side is only for the consumer.

 

If its cheaper... why are my games still $60 on launch with more bugs and problems?

[Razor Blade]

Just now, BetterThanLife said:

It is a legitimate argument if you understand it.

How is buying used goods that have not been previously stolen make you a thief? It is not morally wrong.

 

Pirated software or media is a completely different thing. The person that pirates distributes the content with no compensation going to the creator. That can create hundreds of thousands if not millions of lost sales. If someone sells a CD, that is creating one lost sale. At the same time, that person who sold the CD no longer has the CD. Essentially the creator neither gained or lost anything.