Response to today's (Nov 30) Tech Quicky video: Why are Apple Products so Expensive?

[Tao]

Greetings,

Normally I like LTT content, however today's Tech Quicky just was so far in left field that I felt I had to write a reply for the consideration of LTT.  Here is the video in question: 

This video didn't go deep enough.  It barely skimmed the surface of Apple pricing, product quality and the like, and in doing so even made some false statements (which I will go into at the end).  However I wanted to address the main, serious issues with Apple pricing that were missed, and should have been in this video. Especially looking at British Columbia consumer protection law that should have been one of the first things researched by LTT for this video.

You missed some very important points that should have been made in a video outlining why Apple products cost so much. These are not to hate on Apple, but are actual FACT that should have been stated when talking about their prices:

Apple practices are in clear violation of unfair practices under British Columbia consumer protection law, and they are also in violation of the laws we have here in Saskatchewan.  Take a look at Apple desktops and the ram upgrades: https://www.apple.com/.../buy-mac/imac/21.5-inch-3.4ghz-1tb#

$240 Canadian for 8GB more  (making 16GB total), or $720 for 24GB more (32GB total)!  Compare that with newegg.ca prices: https://www.newegg.ca/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE...

Apple charges more than twice the price for ram. I don't know what DDR 4 ram they use, but with their DDR3 systems, it wasn't anything fancy as several videos were made by tech Youtubers showing how to upgrade ram on Macs.

Apple also charges $240 for a minor upgrade to the processor. That is like buying a whole other processor!

Here are the applicable laws:

In British Columbia:

"Unconscionable acts or practices
8 (1) An unconscionable act or practice by a supplier may occur before, during or after the consumer transaction.
(3) Without limiting subsection (2), the circumstances that the court must consider include the following: 
(c) that, at the time the consumer transaction was entered into, the total price grossly exceeded the total price at which similar subjects of similar consumer transactions were readily obtainable by similar consumers;"
http://www.bclaws.ca/.../document/ID/freeside/04002_02...

In Saskatchewan:

"PART II Division 2
Specific unfair practices
7 The following are unfair practices:
(r) taking advantage of a consumer by entering into an agreement if the price of the goods or services grossly exceeds the price at which similar goods or services are readily obtainable in a similar transaction by like consumers;"

http://www.publications.gov.sk.ca/.../Statutes/C30-2.pdf

Further, although in some cases some statements made by Linus are true, in others they are outright false. Linus says: "..more consideration into...component quality..." This may be true for iPhone, however it is NOT true at all for their laptops (overheating), or desktops. As we saw a few years ago, Apple used lower speed DDR3 memory and the memory could easily be swapped out with memory bought on newegg.com.

Also Linus says: "...but Apple hasn't wanted to risk cheaping out to make lower end product that could compromise their brand reputation". This statement is patently false. There are numerous examples of poor build quality of their laptops (see Rossmann videos), doing away with headphone jacks, bending and breaking phones, etc

Overall this video really missed the mark.  I know Linus didn't intend to make false or misleading statements, as they were probably an artifact of trying to summarize things "as quickly as possible".  I can also see not going into detail about consumer protection laws in a Tech Quicky, but it should at least be mentioned as a foot note. However due to the false statements, I really would suggest it be taken down and redone.

[ediscommon]

And here i was, me, thinking, making my second post in this forum, asking for LTT to slow down or stop talking about apple (because, look at comment sections across social).

Valid points and i think (living in the other side of the atlantic so i don't know) that are a lot of things apple could change in terms of pricing politics, but that can be said also about the rest of tech companies. 

But this part is plain wrong "goods or services are readily obtainable in a similar transaction by like consumers".

Story time.

Young me loves PCs, young me goes Athlon Xp 3200. Loves is first build. Loves XP. Young me not young anymore. The ready and avaible is a messy place. Because of the GIGANTIC DIFRENCES in offers from CPU vendors like intel or amd, GPU, Cases, RAM, etc etc, all stores have major percentage on their built rigs. And this is where the problem lies and many people seem to not think about.

You go to a Apple store and you have that, period. People often tend to criticize apple about RAM or Storage pricing models, but that's where they also earn their bucks. Besides that, nothing much changes. 

So you want a PC but you don't know what is capable or what not; AND i'm not talking about ilterates, i'm talking about common folks that likes tech but don't want to spend weeks searching every store, every build they have, every comparison and every benchmark there is on internet and just want a pc that works, good, and has a terminal. Where do you go? Like the video said, R&D and store locations take a lot of money, 

side And LTT didn't even talk about custom hardware, something Microsoft avoids touching afraid of losing PC market (to linux?).

We could go on forever, but i guess, as a tech enthusiast, just leave apple alone so we can maybe avoid all the hate for hate stuff? I mean, i'm writing this in a iMac pro from 2015 and been searching for parts for my first waterbuild ever, but everytime LTT does stuff like this, i just bookmark all tabs and come back later (because i really like LTT!!!!!)

PS: You don't know what DDR4 they use, and MAC ram availability is not that sure in canada i believe (besides craiglist?)

Edit: I'm guessing i won't receive many replies since the logic of this post is straight human and based on social experience. Going off. To a third post!

[Tao]

1 hour ago, ediscommon said:

And here i was, me, thinking, making my second post in this forum, asking for LTT to slow down or stop talking about apple (because, look at comment sections across social).

Valid points and i think (living in the other side of the atlantic so i don't know) that are a lot of things apple could change in terms of pricing politics, but that can be said also about the rest of tech companies. 

But this part is plain wrong "goods or services are readily obtainable in a similar transaction by like consumers".

...

PS: You don't know what DDR4 they use, and MAC ram availability is not that sure in canada i believe (besides craiglist?)
 

First some background: 

In law, lawmakers usually write legislation open ended to a certain extent.  This is because they cannot foresee all questions and circumstances that will arise, so they rely on the courts to make decisions based on reason and what fits the legislators' intent.  A judge will have to read the law as written and decide what precisely it means: 

"taking advantage of a consumer by entering into an agreement if the price of the goods or services grossly exceeds the price at which similar goods or services are readily obtainable in a similar transaction by like consumers;"" 

Also I must state that this is interpreted by the judge from a layman's point of view.  Not a purely technical point of view.  Durring trial, tech savvy experts may give testimony, but ultimately the judge must look at how this interacts with consumers as a whole.

"similar goods' can mean many things.  To the detail at which things would be 'similar', a judge would have to decide.  Is an AMD chip similar to an Intel chip?  Well yes, but when you refine the comparison down to more and more detail you do get to a point where you say "no".  If a tech savy person were to bring an AMD vs Intel issue to court, price for performance would come into play to try and cut through some of the ambiguity, and the price for performance of an Intel chip is not "grossly exceeding" that of an AMD chip. 

However DDR 4 2400 RAM has to be made with a certain specification.  The timings can vary, which can change the price, but ultimately the 'goods' are 'similar', and there is little ambiguity between units, especially when comparing prices.

Here is the original video of upgrading a Mac, and commentating on the price Apple charges: 

So let us dissect the law quoted above:  

Any person entering into contract is by nature is "taking advantage' of the other person by 'entering into an agreement' with them.  Both parties benefit.  This is not illegal and is the way contracts are supposed to work.  However doing so while charging a price which "grossly exceeds the price at which similar goods or services are readily obtainable in a similar transaction by like consumers;" is illegal here.

The next step is to answer whether these goods are "readily available in similar transactions".  Well as Wendell points out in the video, a customer can literally go by DDR3 ram (for cheaper), and do the upgrade themselves.  Also buying a pre-built PC is a "similar transaction" and will not charge the same prices as Apple when it comes to the modular upgrades. The extra cost to the ram through Apple's store does not justify the install cost or any other factor.  Also ram upgrades as well as pre-built (let alone custom) computers are readily available as they can be bough from a myriad of different vendours in any given place.

Finally, the question of 'like customers' must be answered.  There are varying types of customers who buy computers.  One customer may be looking for Apple specific features.  However many customers are simply looking for a personal computer to work on.  These customers would be like customers.  It is not what is available only at an Apple store, but what is available to consumers within the market place.  The only place this may have relevance in a court, is that an Apple user, specifically looking for an Apple service, may not have a case on this technicality.  However a customer looking for a computer in general, definitely has a case if they are over charged for a Mac.

Apple does not research their own ram.  They get it wholesale from the cheapest price that they have no compatibility issues with.  There is no special sauce justifying the higher charge in price.

[corrado33]

While I disagree with the OP's sentiments, I'm quite perturbed by the fact that in a video about apple's prices, NO PRICE COMPARISONS WERE MADE. 

 

You would have expected them to do a "Well the macbook contains these parts, which one can buy for $XXXX, while a similar non-apple laptop with the same hardware costs $XXXX, therefore, the "apple tax" is XX%"

 

I think they didn't do those comparisons because they know the apple tax isn't very high (linus even stated it in one of their relatively recent videos.)

 

I also find it funny that there is no thread over in the LTT official subforum yet, because they're likely expecting uproar.