Operating System Choice

[nickl]

Hi All,

 

I am helping make decisions about a class at my high school in which we will be making videos and it will basically be a film making class. We have decided to use Premiere Pro for editing (we're buying all of CC for the rest of the software that we probably will need). We also will be using Pro Tools for audio editing as it is the industry standard and we want to train the students for the real world in which they would be working.*

One of our main points of contention is our debate between Windows and Mac. Personally, coming from a Windows background and liking to nerd out about computers and play with technology, I prefer Windows.**

One of the administrators I'm working with thinks that we should go with Mac since it is more common in the industry, and since there has to be some benefit to Mac, otherwise most people in the industry wouldn't be using Mac.

 

My argument is that the savings that we will get from Windows machines could be put to better use being spent on things that more significantly improved the education and experience of the students. I also argue that since we will be using CC software and Pro Tools, the OS underneath won't make much difference as the majority of the student's time will be spent in the software, and not dealing with the OS. I don't foresee any significant differences between software functionality between Mac and Windows.

The administrator's argument is that there has to be a reason for creative professionals to be using Mac, and that possibly there will be better compatibility with a wider range of storage options, or maybe a better user experience. Another concern for using Windows is how much we will lock them down and restrict the access and abilities of the students. Some of the members of the tech dept. are of the mindset of locking it down as much as possible, while we think that it would be better to leave them somewhat open so that the students can have a bit more freedom with how they use the computers.

Most of the people in the tech dept. are more experienced with administering Windows than Mac.

We will be planning to edit at a max of 4K resolution at a bitrate of 100Mbps...

We will be consulting with the teacher of the class regarding their preference, as they will be the ones that will be dealing with it day in and day out.

 

My question(s) are as follows:

1. Is there a difference between the functionality of Premiere (and the rest of CC) and Pro Tools between Mac and Windows?
2. Am I correct that the difference in price between a Mac and Windows system would be better put towards better cameras, lighting, or audio equipment, and that improving those would more significantly improve the education of the students?
3. Would macOS work better with external storage systems or audio/video equipment?
4. General system recommendations are of course welcome .
5. Would Macs last longer than Windows machines and would service be better than a Windows system**?
6. Would teaching students on Windows disadvantage them in the real world of the film and TV industries?
7. Why do most of the production houses and "creative professionals" use Macs? Is it just history, prejudices, and marketing, or is there a real difference in functionality and/or user experience?
8. Any general feedback is of course welcome.

In total, we will be getting 6 video editing stations, 1 audio recording system, one audio design system, 1 teacher's computer, and maybe 1 or 2 other computers. We would like to keep them all the same computers so we don't have to deal with 10 different models. Each of the systems would have at least 2 displays (maybe going to 3 or even 4 if they have the capability to project to the rest of the class).

 

*We also understand that Media Composer does have the majority of the market in the film and television industry but believe that it is too difficult for the students to learn. We also have been told that Premiere has begun to become more popular in the industry and that we wouldn't be hurting the students by teaching Premiere instead of Media Composer. I'm welcome to comments about this decision as well.

**We will not be building our own systems. We will be buying pre-built workstations from Dell or HP, or if Mac, of course Apple.

 

Edit 1: We will be editing completely on the network since it would be easier to deal with since if a group/student was editing on one machine and if it failed or another group was using it, they could go to another system and simply keep working without the hassle of moving video files around. Is this practical, and would this change the OS choice?

[SolarpandaS]

If the class will be keeping the systems, keep in mind that macs have limited upgradeablilty (spelling?). 

 

1. I don't know

2. Most likely yes

3. depends on what software you plan on using

4. NA

5. It depends on the use... I know some macs that have gone to crap and some windows machines that have lasted longer than the should have and vice versa

6. Not necessarily, if they have a basic knowledge of how to use macOS

7. I have no clue

8. Maybe you could go half and half, some mac and some windows so if you encounter problems on one plat you could jump to the other...?

[Electronics Wizardy]

The whole macs were better isn't true these days. It was true with fcp7 and the old mac pro's, but now most schools and people are running dell precisions.

 

The windows systems will be the same as the macs in premiere(I have used it on both). 

 

Also windows systems work better in schools due to how much better active directory works in windows and group policy.

[SolarpandaS]

6 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

due to how much better active directory works in windows and group policy

+1

[Flavortown2k16]

If you are familiar with mac, then go with windows.

If you are familiar with windows, then go with windows.

everything from apple is complete ripoff even if its free.

[nickl]

9 hours ago, SolarpandaS said:

If the class will be keeping the systems, keep in mind that macs have limited upgradeability (spelling?). 

8. Maybe you could go half and half, some mac and some windows so if you encounter problems on one plat you could jump to the other...?

I would like having both options, but I think that that would add more confusion. Some kids would want Macs while others would want windows, and they would probably end up arguing about who gets what. Also, its more work for the tech dept. who would have to maintain 2 separate but linked groups of systems...

I do agree that not being able to upgrade Macs is a downside, and I have also brought up the point that if we ever wanted to make the jump to 10GbE to each computer, we would have to get really expensive dongle's/boxes for adapting 10GbE to Tunderbolt, where on Windows, it would be easier to add a PCIe card. Although you can add more ram, that's about it...

 

9 hours ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

The whole macs were better isn't true these days. It was true with fcp7 and the old mac pro's, but now most schools and people are running dell precisions.

The windows systems will be the same as the macs in premiere(I have used it on both). 

Also windows systems work better in schools due to how much better active directory works in windows and group policy.

We have looked into Dell Precisions, and we will be able to get deals on them (being an educational institution, of course).

We have the whole AD thing setup already, and we do have a iMac lab and the management system works well, we just have someone who isn't avaliable at all times.

[nickl]

On 15/07/2016 at 1:34 AM, Flavortown2k16 said:

If you are familiar with mac, then go with windows.

If you are familiar with windows, then go with windows.

everything from apple is complete ripoff even if its free.

I would appreciate if you explained why Mac is simply inferior to Windows and not simply trash an option w/o any rationale.

 

On 15/07/2016 at 1:37 AM, wrathoftheturkey said:

CHROMEBOXES ALL THE WAY!!!!!

LOL, Chrome OS isn't gonna be enough... 

[SolarpandaS]

Quote

everything from apple is complete ripoff even if its free

Overstatement, but apple does tend to overprice the SHIT out of the same stuff just because of aesthetics

[SolarpandaS]

1 minute ago, SolarpandaS said:

Overstatement, but apple does tend to overprice the SHIT out of the same stuff just because of aesthetics

oh, and theyre APPPPPLEEEEE I MEAN CMON ITS APPLEEEE

[Flavortown2k16]

2 minutes ago, nickl said:

I would appreciate if you explained why Mac is simply inferior to Windows and not simply trash an option w/o any rationale.

Performance.

No apple products.

more software

cheaper.

i can propably give you more if i do bit of ''research'', but there is few that i can give you straight away.

[nickl]

3 minutes ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Nearly everyone on this forum is a gamer, and the rest are still either enthusiasts or trolls. They favor sheer bang for buck, and apple products are extremely lacking in that department

I understand that, and I am like that if I was making a computer for myself, but in a setting like this, stability and warranty are important as we don't want to have a technician always in the class trying to figure out why the hell the computers aren't working...

[ALwin]

40 minutes ago, nickl said:

• s there a difference between the functionality of Premiere (and the rest of CC) and Pro Tools between Mac and Windows?
• Am I correct that the difference in price between a Mac and Windows system would be better put towards better cameras, lighting, or audio equipment, and that improving those would more significantly improve the education of the students?
• Would macOS work better with external storage systems or audio/video equipment?
• General system recommendations are of course welcome .
• Would Macs last longer than Windows machines and would service be better than a Windows system**?
• Would teaching students on Windows disadvantage them in the real world of the film and TV industries?
• Why do most of the production houses and "creative professionals" use Macs? Is it just history, prejudices, and marketing, or is there a real difference in functionality and/or user experience?
• Any general feedback is of course welcome.

1. No functional difference of the software.  The difference is in the OS, in which OSX will be more stable than Windows over the long run and will have fewer risks of students dicking around with the system or fewer risks of malware.  For the hardware itself, of course always get SSD drives for long term performance stability.
2. Theoretically you are right that the savings can be put towards other things.
3. Both Windows and OSX should work with any external storage system, as long as they are properly formatted.  Such as OSX's HFS file system cannot be read/written by Windows without proper drivers.
4. If your school must buy Windows computers, definitely do NOT go with build your own machines.  If the school has to go the route of Apple, buy the 5K iMacs with the dedicated GPU.  Generally whichever direction you need to go, the school should get at least 16GB memory, SSD drive for OS and applications and dedicated GPU. Here is where the 5k iMac will outshine a Windows machine.  Apple is supporting 10-bit color drivers in their 5k iMacs with the dGPU, in Window you need a Quadro or Firepro workstation GPU to get 10-bit color support.
5. Long lasting depends on how they take care of the machines.  If someone treats them roughly...
6. OS doesn't really matter on preparing them for the industry.  Because the software tools they use will be imparting them the core concepts.
7. Professionals who use Apple products use them because they get a stable system, though it may cost more, that lasts longer and because they may use other tools that run only on that software such as Final Cut Pro and Logic Pro.  In the higher end of the industry, software such as Autodesk Flame which is a much better software than After Effects runs only on OSX or Linux.  And of course, MacBook Pros have generally tended to be better designed than their Windows counterpart laptops, in terms of sleekness, weight, etc.
8. The downside of OSX, might not integrate with the schools user accounts, groups and other network policies that may be implemented if all the school's computers are managed via a server.

[ALwin]

4 minutes ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Actually, you can't do it on a Mac either without the firepros, which it has. IMPORTANT: GET PRETTY MONITORS

Do what?

[nickl]

9 hours ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Actually, you can't do it on a Mac either without the firepros, which it has. IMPORTANT: GET PRETTY MONITORS

We were planning on getting 2 Dell UltraSharp 1440p, 27" monitors, UP2716D's for each station. If we went with Windows we would get Quadro's or FirePro's and if we went with Mac, we would get FirePro's (or whatever else they offer). If it benefits anything, we were also thinking of getting a large, 4K monitor to mount above the other 2 screens which would add significantly to the pretty factor.

 

9 hours ago, ALwin said:

Here is where the 5k iMac will outshine a Windows machine.  Apple is supporting 10-bit color drivers in their 5k iMacs with the dGPU, in Window you need a Quadro or Firepro workstation GPU to get 10-bit color support.

Do you think there would be any point in getting a Mac Pro and getting Dell or other monitors, or would it better to get it AIO?

[nickl]

3 minutes ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Support 10-bit color

While we're on the topic of color and monitors, is A-FRC bad (like in this LG 4K monitor). They say that it supports 10-bit color, but it says in parentheses, 8-bit+A-FRC. Is this not true 10-bit and would it hurt color fidelity?

[ALwin]

On 15/07/2016 at 2:01 AM, nickl said:

Do you think there would be any point in getting a Mac Pro and getting Dell or other monitors, or would it better to get it AIO?

No, I don't really see the need for a Mac Pro in a teaching environment.  They will just end up costing the school more. 27" 5K retina iMacs will be enough.  With 5k resolution monitors, you might not need a 2nd display for the machines.  Up to the school.

 

FYI, I am editing 4k footage from my FS7 on a MacBook Pro.

 

On 15/07/2016 at 2:01 AM, wrathoftheturkey said:

Support 10-bit colors

5k retina iMacs support 10-bit colors.  Their monitors might not be capable of displaying 10-bit, but Apple has added the support for the GPU so it will just be a matter of buying a 10-bit second monitor.

 

On 15/07/2016 at 2:04 AM, nickl said:

While we're on the topic of color and monitors, is A-FRC bad (like in this LG 4K monitor). They say that it supports 10-bit color, but it says in parentheses, 8-bit+A-FRC. Is this not true 10-bit and would it hurt color fidelity?

Don't worry about color fidelity.  It wouldn't hurt anything though having true 10-bit color is better but this also means you need both hardware and software that supports a 10-bit workflow.

 

This is a true 10-bit monitor

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081827-REG/dell_up2715k_27_5k_5120x2880_computer_monitor.html

[nickl]

3 minutes ago, ALwin said:

Don't worry about color fidelity.  It wouldn't hurt anything though having true 10-bit color is better but this also means you need both hardware and software that supports a 10-bit workflow.

 

This is a true 10-bit monitor

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1081827-REG/dell_up2715k_27_5k_5120x2880_computer_monitor.html

I assume that a FirePro or a Quadro, Premiere, AE, and the rest of CC, and a 10-bit monitor would work together for 10-bit, right?

 

One note that I should make is that although it will be difficult for the teacher to manage, students are supposed to edit in groups (somehow, don't ask me)... Would having another monitor be good in a scenario like that?

[nickl]

2 minutes ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Possibly, yeah... 2 mice and keyboards, OR possibly duplicating the monitors

How would you use 2 keyboards and mice on a single computer?! (and how would it benefit the workflow?)

[ALwin]

On 15/07/2016 at 1:19 AM, nickl said:

Edit 1: We will be editing completely on the network since it would be easier to deal with since if a group/student was editing on one machine and if it failed or another group was using it, they could go to another system and simply keep working without the hassle of moving video files around. Is this practical, and would this change the OS choice?

Either with Windows or OSX, a shared network storage will not be an issue as long as the IT department in the school has set things up properly.  You just need to make sure that the connection between the machines and the shared storage will be minimum stable 1Gbe.  The IT department can also create folders on the shared storage that are accessible only to people with the right credentials.

 

Addendum

At one of my offices I work at, the IT department has installed a shared network storage for the MacPro and several iMacs we have, including the MacBooks we own when it connects to the same network.  This is where we dump all our masters and edited footage, and sometimes we work directly off the storage.

http://gblabs.co.uk/products/Bridge/

 

The network issue between OSX and Windows is that it is not easy to set up a situation where you can control user accounts on OSX using the same system that is used for Windows.

 

On 15/07/2016 at 2:11 AM, nickl said:

I assume that a FirePro or a Quadro, Premiere, AE, and the rest of CC, and a 10-bit monitor would work together for 10-bit, right?

You may want to check the price and specs of a Quadro, the M4000 costs around $800-1000 each and have low performance.  Not sure about Firepros but I think they may be similar.

 

Having a 2nd monitor might be helpful, regardless of which machines the school buys.

 

On 15/07/2016 at 2:14 AM, nickl said:

How would you use 2 keyboards and mice on a single computer?! (and how would it benefit the workflow?)

It wouldn't benefit the workflow.

[nickl]

4 minutes ago, ALwin said:

Either with Windows or OSX, a shared network storage will not be an issue as long as the IT department in the school has set things up properly.  You just need to make sure that the connection between the machines and the shared storage will be minimum stable 1Gbe.  The IT department can also create folders on the shared storage that are accessible only to people with the right credentials.

 

The network issue between OSX and Windows is that it is not easy to set up a situation where you can control user accounts on OSX using the same system that is used for Windows.

 

You may want to check the price and specs of a Quadro, the M4000 costs around $800-1000 each and have low performance.  Not sure about Firepros but I think they may be similar.

 

Having a 2nd monitor might be helpful, regardless of which machines the school buys.

We will figure out drive mapping, we have done that before.

We also have Mac management figured out, as we have an iMac lab already, and we have permissions setup that works with the rest of our Active Directory stuff.

Quadro's are very expensive and I will look into them.

We will be getting 2 monitors, no matter what, I think... I assume we would want them matched so we would get like 1 iMac 5K and a Dell 5K monitor?

[nickl]

3 minutes ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Theoretically, you could edit different parts of the same thing on two monitors

Wouldn't attaching 2 mice just really mess up the movement of the one cursor? I don't think either Mac or Windows supports having 2 cursors (or keyboards, for that matter) doing stuff simultaneously...

[ALwin]

6 minutes ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Theoretically, you could edit different parts of the same thing on two monitors

Theoretically yes, but in practice not worth the effort.  Let the students share, work together and if they need to collaborate on a project they can do so from different machines.

 

7 minutes ago, nickl said:

We will figure out drive mapping, we have done that before.

At one of my offices I work at, the IT department has installed a shared network storage for the MacPro and several iMacs we have, including the MacBooks we own when it connects to the same network.  This is where we dump all our masters and edited footage, and sometimes we work directly off the storage.  After dumping in around 10+ years worth of archived video, we've used up around 75% of the 20TB that was installed.  You just need a fast enough network speed.

http://gblabs.co.uk/products/Bridge/

[nickl]

2 minutes ago, wrathoftheturkey said:

Again, this isn't very practical for editing, but if you run a virtual machine, you can dedicate the peripherals to the machine 

1 real machine and 1 vm working on the same project simultaneously simply won't work...

[ALwin]

3 minutes ago, nickl said:

Wouldn't attaching 2 mice just really mess up the movement of the one cursor? I don't think either Mac or Windows supports having 2 cursors (or keyboards, for that matter) doing stuff simultaneously...

It doesn't show two cursors if they are working in the same OS/VM.  There will be just one and both mice will control it and if two people are fighting over it....  In a VM environment you can just assign which device is used by which VM.

[nickl]

On 15/07/2016 at 2:21 AM, ALwin said:

At one of my offices I work at, the IT department has installed a shared network storage for the MacPro and several iMacs we have, including the MacBooks we own when it connects to the same network.  This is where we dump all our masters and edited footage, and sometimes we work directly off the storage.  After dumping in around 10+ years worth of archived video, we've used up around 75% of the 20TB that was installed.

http://gblabs.co.uk/products/Bridge/

I assume that that solution requires separate boxes for the actual drives and that module simply interfaces between the clients and the drives?

 

On 15/07/2016 at 2:26 AM, wrathoftheturkey said:

Forget I said anything. But 2 monitors will still benefit multiple people -- someone edits, someone watches the result. Scenarios like that, and, of course, it will improve overall productivity... sometimes more space is just nice

We have definitely decided to go with at least 2 monitors for each station.