1080P to 4K Nearest-Neighbor Upscaler

[ReanimationXP]

Hi all, first post.  LTT seems to be full of people who, as I like to put it, actually know what the fuck they're talking about, so let me put you to the test and give you a doozy.  If you don't know what nearest neighbor is please find the exit now

 

I recently got a Samsung  UN55JS8500.  It is a great all-around 4K TV, except for a terrible menu and one other thing: I cannot turn off the upscaling engine.  PC Mode, Game Mode, 4:4:4, doesn't matter.  If I pump 1080p into this thing, the upscaling results in blurry garbage for PC text and retro games. I've confirmed this outputting from my GTX 980 in 1080p and trying every setting imaginable.

 

Let me emphasize I don't want a lecture.  Yes, the upscaling works oustandingly for video, however that's seldom my use case. It's almost always games, or a PC with text and such.  I'm a videophile and the faintest sign of blurriness or non-nativeness makes me want to punch things.  It's like my grandma set the input source to 960p or some shit.. off by just enough to fuck up native crispness and fill me with eye-gouging rage. Even slight nearest-neighbor distortion is more stomach-able to me than blurriness of what should be crisp lines.

 

I have a simple goal:  Display a 1080p source, in realtime, in nearest-neighbor-upscaled 4K (2160p), aka pixel "doubling" / "quadrupling", aka 2x / 200% zoom, aka "integer" scaling.  Specifically, 1 black pixel in 1080p surrounded by white should become 4 full-black pixels in 4k, surrounded by pure white.  No blur, no antialiasing, nothing. MS-Paint quality resizing.  Being able to do the same for 720p would be great as well (pixel tripling, 3x, 300% zoom, 1 pixel becomes 9).  If you were curious, 720p pixel-tripled happens to equal exactly 2160p, imagine that. The perfect resolution. (Take notes, Apple.)

 

This doesn't seem to be available in consumer-grade 4K TV's AT ALL, for reasons I can't fathom.  Even nVidia doesn't seem to support it on the GPU without assistance from a monitor. (There may be some tricks or advancements since the forum posts I was reading, but yeah.) 

 

For all these reasons, I'm now looking for a hardware device to do what I describe:  a hardware 1080p @ 60hz to 4K @ 60hz nearest-neighbor-upscaler.  Anyone heard of or know where to buy such a thing?  Could help me make one?  (I'm an IoT hardware hacking guy but not quite that advanced.)

 

Thanks all.  I have faith in you to restore my love for my would-be super-crisp, color-gamut-nailing 4K TV.

[ShadowCaptain]

6 minutes ago, ReanimationXP said:

SNIP

not sure it exists...(could be wrong, no expect on TVs)

 

Upgrade your PC to run 4k better? 

[MrSuperb]

10 minutes ago, ReanimationXP said:

I have a simple goal:  Display a 1080p source, in realtime, in nearest-neighbor-upscaled 4K (2160p), aka pixel "doubling" / "quadrupling", aka 2x / 200% zoom, aka "integer" scaling. 

....

This doesn't seem to be available in consumer-grade 4K TV's AT ALL, for reasons I can't fathom.  Even nVidia doesn't seem to support it on the GPU without assistance from a monitor. (There may be some tricks or advancements since the forum posts I was reading, but yeah.) 

 

afaik there is no (consumer) computer monitor OR TV that is cabaple of such upscaling.

[ReanimationXP]

@ShadowCaptain That is not an answer.  My PC is fine.
@MrSuperb That isn't either, yes there is.

I am not asking for a new computer, nor TV, nor monitor.  I'm after an HDMI -> HDMI realtime scaler device, or someone who would have hookups to get one created.

Edited February 18, 2016 by ReanimationXP

[MrSuperb]

2 minutes ago, ReanimationXP said:

@MrSuperb That isn't either, yes there is.

pls show me one ....

[ShadowCaptain]

3 minutes ago, ReanimationXP said:

@ShadowCaptain That is not an answer.  My PC is fine.
@MrSuperb That isn't either, yes there is.

I am not asking for a new computer, nor TV, nor monitor.  I'm after an HDMI -> HDMI realtime scaler device, or someone who would have hookups to get one created.

It is an answer, if you had more power you could drive the monitor at native resolution...

 

I know of a few 4k scalers, but they are designed for 24/30hz so not sure they are suitable for gaming at 60fps etc

 

and even a cheap one is like £200 + which could buy you a second 980 to run 4k etc

[ReanimationXP]

1 minute ago, ShadowCaptain said:

It is an answer, if you had more power you could drive the monitor at native resolution...

 

I know of a few 4k scalers, but they are designed for 24/30hz so not sure they are suitable for gaming at 60fps etc

 

and even a cheap one is like £200 + which could buy you a second 980 to run 4k etc

You're not understanding the question. Please do me a favor and delete your replies.

[ShadowCaptain]

Just now, ReanimationXP said:

You're not understanding the question. Please do me a favor and delete your replies.

You want an external scaler to take the 1080p output from your PC and scale it to 4k through pixel quadroupling

 

the only ones I know of are designed for blu ray content and run at 24/30

[ReanimationXP]

3 minutes ago, MrSuperb said:

pls show me one ....

I'm not going to bother, you have the internet. Google nearest neighbor monitor and I'm sure you'll find one. If it didn't exist there wouldn't be a name for it.

If someone wants to actually answer the question rather than add a 2-second nitpick, that'd be cool.  I can get inexperienced answers from any other internet forum.

[ReanimationXP]

2 minutes ago, ShadowCaptain said:

You want an external scaler to take the 1080p output from your PC and scale it to 4k through pixel quadroupling

 

the only ones I know of are designed for blu ray content and run at 24/30

Correct. That doesn't help as I'd need at least 60hz, but I appreciate the reply and your taking the time to understand.

[MrSuperb]

Just now, ReanimationXP said:

I'm not going to bother, you have the internet. Google nearest neighbor monitor and I'm sure you'll find one. If it didn't exist there wouldn't be a name for it.

there is no name for it, other than the one you just made up.

1 minute ago, ReanimationXP said:

If someone wants to actually answer the question rather than add a 2-second nitpick, that'd be cool.  I can get inexperienced answers from any other internet forum.

Only because my answer is short, it doesn't mean that I have done quite a bit of research on that topic (a. because is use a 4k monitor myself AND b. this topics comes up quite often on this forum, with the misconception that 4k monitor could scale 1080p content perfectly)

____

 

But you know what ... if it is so much easier to get experienced answers elsewhere, then just leave this forum as fast as you joined. One core rule of this forum is to not be a dick and currently you are the only one I can see in here being one.

[ShadowCaptain]

Just now, ReanimationXP said:

Correct. That doesn't help as I'd need at least 60hz, but I appreciate the reply and your taking the time to understand.

I fully understand what you want, I am just saying that i have never seen that product exist, and not one designed for high frame rates (or are just insanely expensive)

 

bear in mind, if you are doing pixel doubling, and have PERFECT scaling you are still only getting 1080p detailed image at the end of the day, this rendering the 4k aspect of your TV pointless (I am sure  you understand this, just reiterating) 

 

I still think if you are willing to invest in an expensive scaler you may aswell just invest in a better GPU and play in 4k native and get a superiorly sharp experience

 

[GorgnakThatBarbarian]

2 hours ago, ReanimationXP said:

You're not understanding the question. Please do me a favor and delete your replies.

 

2 hours ago, ReanimationXP said:

I'm not going to bother, you have the internet. Google nearest neighbor monitor and I'm sure you'll find one. If it didn't exist there wouldn't be a name for it.

If someone wants to actually answer the question rather than add a 2-second nitpick, that'd be cool.  I can get inexperienced answers from any other internet forum.

Wow, you seem to be a toxic person...

[ReanimationXP]

3 hours ago, GorgnakThatBarbarian said:

 

Wow, you seem to be a toxic person...

I'm someone who has little patience for people responding just to respond on a forum of someone I respect very much like Linus.
I'm not here to be told "hurr i've never seen that so go away", I'm here for help finding a solution or making one.

[GorgnakThatBarbarian]

10 minutes ago, ReanimationXP said:

I'm someone who has little patience for people responding just to respond on a forum of someone I respect very much like Linus.
I'm not here to be told "hurr i've never seen that so go away", I'm here for help finding a solution or making one.

Honestly, you have the best answer right here. You're "demands" just can't be met the way you want. Sometimes you have to compromise. Shadow Captain gave you the best possible answer.

6 hours ago, ShadowCaptain said:

I fully understand what you want, I am just saying that i have never seen that product exist, and not one designed for high frame rates (or are just insanely expensive)

 

bear in mind, if you are doing pixel doubling, and have PERFECT scaling you are still only getting 1080p detailed image at the end of the day, this rendering the 4k aspect of your TV pointless (I am sure  you understand this, just reiterating) 

 

I still think if you are willing to invest in an expensive scaler you may aswell just invest in a better GPU and play in 4k native and get a superiorly sharp experience

 

Might as well just play in 4K. In that case it's a compromise for the better

Edited February 18, 2016 by GorgnakThatBarbarian

[ReanimationXP]

If my source were a PC, I likely wouldn't be having this problem and would be appealing to nVidia to add so-called "integer scaling" to their drivers.
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/844905/integer-scaling-mode

 

That is something I'm interested in, but my source is not a PC. It's last-gen consoles, current-gen consoles, literally any other 1080p source, as I mentioned. "Get a better PC" is not an option. Mine runs 4K just fine.

[GorgnakThatBarbarian]

4 minutes ago, ReanimationXP said:

If my source were a PC, I likely wouldn't be having this problem and would be appealing to nVidia to add so-called "integer scaling" to their drivers.
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/844905/integer-scaling-mode

 

That is something I'm interested in, but my driver is not a PC. It's last-gen consoles, literally any other 1080p source, as I mentioned. "Get a better PC" is not an option. Mine runs 4K just fine.

You never really stated it was console hence the "Get a better PC" comments.

http://www.wyrestorm.com/catalog/EXP-CON-4K-DD

Closest thing I could find.

[MrSuperb]

3 hours ago, ReanimationXP said:

If my source were a PC, I likely wouldn't be having this problem and would be appealing to nVidia to add so-called "integer scaling" to their drivers.
https://forums.geforce.com/default/topic/844905/integer-scaling-mode

*sigh* ... and of course nvidia will just implement it right away ... or they will just stick with bilinear filtering ... guess nobody ever asked for a bicubic solution either ...

 

3 hours ago, ReanimationXP said:

That is something I'm interested in, but my source is not a PC. It's last-gen consoles, current-gen consoles, literally any other 1080p source, as I mentioned. "Get a better PC" is not an option. Mine runs 4K just fine.

your only option is to get the best available scaler ... it most likely won't use nearest neigbhour for the simple reason, that in most scenarios the results will be worse, than when using more sophisticated scaling algorithms. Oh yeah 60Hz will limit you choice even more ... consumer grade device? nope - none.

 

__________

 

As I said before "afaik there is no (consumer) computer monitor OR TV that is cabaple of such upscaling."

This statement doesn't come from a 5 min google search ...

But apparently you already know better ...

[ReanimationXP]

I'm not necessarily restricting myself to consumer-grade. I don't even mind helping to get one built. The need is pretty simple and a quick search shows I'm not the only one looking.

 

And yes, I have had monitors that do nearest neighbor.  No TV's that I can recall.

[ReanimationXP]

Thanks for the WyreStorm suggestion.  Looks close but no cigar - WiiU runs at 60fps and I'd like to match that (60hz).

[GorgnakThatBarbarian]

4 minutes ago, ReanimationXP said:

Thanks for the WyreStorm suggestion.  Looks close but no cigar - WiiU runs at 60fps and I'd like to match that (60hz).

Yeah, I am inexperienced in what you are looking for. I'm sure there are other people in your situation and it must suck not be able to find an answer. Hope you find what you're looking for!

[ReanimationXP]

Appreciate it man, thanks

[ReanimationXP]

bamp

[WJLurve]

Hi There. Just thought id chime in, I do realise I'm a bit late to the party. I have been searching for a similar display to scan 1080p to 4k in such a way. I have found the holy grail and it is any recent Panasonic 4K TV. All new Panasonics have a 1080p Pixel x 4 Pixel option. With this setting activated you get 100% non blurry crisp scaling that whilst looking pixelated with your face up to the screen, looks beautiful as soon as you sit back. This is exactly what you have been after. Hope this helps.

 

Mark

[ReanimationXP]

Hi Mark,

 

Thanks for the reply. I did actually hear about the Panasonics.. unfortunately I got an offer too good to refuse on this TV and other than this scaling issue, it's a fantastic television. Boggles my mind why this was overlooked (and why nVidia is doing the same), but c'est la vie. I suppose I could sell it and get the Panasonic, but I'd rather have a solution for this in the future as well. I'm seeing a lot more 4K scalers pop up these days from Monoprice and the like, but very few mention the method they're using for upscaling, or whether the scaler can be 'turned off'. Even rendering 1080p 1:1 in the center would be a neat option. Oddly enough nVidia allows for this but not integer scaling.. ugh.