I am essentially as moral as pirates without being a "pirate"

[BetterThanLife]

All my XBOX 360 / PS3 hardware. Second hand, i refurb bust up machines that i find cheap then keep them.

Softwares, all second hand.

 

Money to company? £0.00

 

Morals?

 

Apprently i thought i had solid ones, apparently morals are subjective.

 

All my hardware.. from ebay second hand. £0.00 to companies.

[Fasauceome]

I don't see how refurbishing used goods is even close to what pirates did. If anything it's just a good thing, reducing e waste and using something that was otherwise useless. Pirates took stuff from people that still wanted to use it, I.e. money or spices or what have you.

4 minutes ago, BetterThanLife said:

apparently morals are subjective

I mean sure, if you really get into it how can you prove if something is good or not? But I'm sure that's not the point of this topic.

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, fasauceome said:

I don't see how refurbishing used goods is even close to what pirates did. If anything it's just a good thing, reducing e waste and using something that was otherwise useless.

I mean sure, if you really get into it how can you prove if something is good or not? But I'm sure that's not the point of this topic.

All they care about is that they get money for what they created, so i am essentially objectively no better off, i just sink my own money into it.

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, BetterThanLife said:

All they care about is that they get money for what they created, so i am essentially objectively no better off, i just sink my own money into it.

I think that's an oversimplified way of looking at piracy. 

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, fasauceome said:

I think that's an oversimplified way of looking at piracy. 

It is from the view of the creator not the consumer.

The consumer loses out either way (if caught pirating) or getting ripped off for the next cash grab.

 

It is nice that things are not greatly forceful.

[KarathKasun]

This is why almost all new games have online content.  You can lock the game key to an account.

[TheKDub]

4 minutes ago, BetterThanLife said:

All they care about is that they get money for what they created, so i am essentially objectively no better off, i just sink my own money into it.

If you're getting second hand stuff, they've already gotten their money from it from the original owner.

 

Refurbishing stuff is not even remotely close to piracy.

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, BetterThanLife said:

It is from the view of the creator not the consumer.

The consumer loses out either way (if caught pirating) or getting ripped off for the next cash grab

Is it though? I mean, Microsoft doesn't sell Xbox 360 consoles anymore, so at this point they don't lose any profit from you selling and buying used/refurbished hardware. Maybe they encourage you to buy a replacement for a good you purchased while it's still in circulation, but then if their products are designed to fail that's forced obsolescence, and if they don't offer warranty then people will be reluctant to buy.

[BetterThanLife]

7 hours ago, TheKDub said:

If you're getting second hand stuff, they've already gotten their money from it from the original owner.

 

Refurbishing stuff is not even remotely close to piracy.

I never paid full cost or original cost and another user get's the item without paying the company.

Piracy is based only on monetary gain for creators.

 

7 hours ago, fasauceome said:

Is it though? I mean, Microsoft doesn't sell Xbox 360 consoles anymore, so at this point they don't lose any profit from you selling and buying used/refurbished hardware. Maybe they encourage you to buy a replacement for a good you purchased while it's still in circulation, but then if their products are designed to fail that's forced obsolescence, and if they don't offer warranty then people will be reluctant to buy.

Switcharoo, it is now an XBOX One X, or PS4 Pro, or i managed to grab a working pre retail unit of a PS5 for way less than retail cost.

[KarathKasun]

3 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

Is it though? I mean, Microsoft doesn't sell Xbox 360 consoles anymore, so at this point they don't lose any profit from you selling and buying used/refurbished hardware. Maybe they encourage you to buy a replacement for a good you purchased while it's still in circulation, but then if their products are designed to fail that's forced obsolescence, and if they don't offer warranty then people will be reluctant to buy.

The content is not generating profit however.  Why do you think HD re-makes are a thing?  Its a way to monetize the software when the hardware is no longer available.

 

This is why backwards compatibility was a huge thing for Sony.

[Fasauceome]

7 hours ago, BetterThanLife said:

Switcharoo, it is now an XBOX One X, or PS4 Pro, or i managed to grab a working pre retail unit of a PS5 for way less than retail cost.

Sure but again, that sale was made, and since that busted Xbox is somebody else's property then they have the right to fix it, as opposed to the company having the right to another sale. It's only piracy if you make something that doesn't belong to you yours, but a broken console belongs to you and you can repair it 

 

7 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

The content is not generating profit however.  Why do you think HD re-makes are a thing?  Its a way to monetize the software when the hardware is no longer available.

A copy of something you own doesn't become pirated when you repair it. If you buy an Xbox and it breaks, the company isn't entitled to another sale, the broken console is still yours and you're entitled to fix it.

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, fasauceome said:

Sure but again, that sale was made, and since that busted Xbox is somebody else's property then they have the right to fix it, as opposed to the company having the right to another sale. It's only piracy if you make something that doesn't belong to you yours, but a broken console belongs to you and you can repair it 

But nothing does belong to me.

It is all there in black and white as licensed to, which means anything such as software with music that is copyrighted, means that i as a consumer legally do not own it and am exempt from retaliation based on that fact.

 

But to go beyond that and take it from someone is hard work and costs money.

 

You see now the loop hole and the boundaries of which they cannot cross because it becomes a detriment both ways.

[KarathKasun]

3 minutes ago, fasauceome said:

A copy of something you own doesn't become pirated when you repair it. If you buy an Xbox and it breaks, the company isn't entitled to another sale, the broken console is still yours and you're entitled to fix it.

This is where you are disconnected from reality.  The company desires income, this is universal.  We are entering an era where you can not re-sell games and old forms of goods trade is seen as piracy.

 

PS Store, Microsoft Store, Steam, Origin, U-Play... These are all ways to kill the second hand market.

[Fasauceome]

7 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

This is where you are disconnected from reality.

Don't you think that's a bit drastic of an insult to level against me?

7 hours ago, KarathKasun said:

The company desires income, this is universal.  We are entering an era where you can not re-sell games and old forms of goods trade is seen as piracy.

Well just because a company would like to have people believe that doesn't mean it is that way. I'm pretty sure most people would say that once they buy a good they don't have to owe the company anything once it breaks and they have to fix it, ergo repairing something already purchased is not resembling piracy. Piracy necessitates theft, but to circulate a used good on the market is a simple transfer of ownership. The same amount of people are in possession of a good, so nothing is effectively lost, or "stolen."

 

7 hours ago, BetterThanLife said:

But nothing does belong to me.

It is all there in black and white as licensed to, which means anything such as software with music that is copyrighted, means that i as a consumer legally do not own it and am exempt from retaliation based on that fact

I'm not sure if you're either implying that you've stolen something or that all used good sales are theft, but one is just regular piracy and the other is a little silly to assert.

[KarathKasun]

Just now, fasauceome said:

Don't you think that's a bit drastic of an insult to level against me?

Well just because a company would like to have people believe that doesn't mean it is that way. I'm pretty sure most people would say that once they buy a good they don't have to owe the company anything once it breaks and they have to fix it, ergo repairing something already purchased is not resembling piracy. Piracy necessitates theft, but to circulate a used good on the market is a simple transfer of ownership. The same amount of people are in possession of a good, so nothing is effectively lost, or "stolen."

That is where you are disconnected from reality.

 

If the publisher retains control of your access through a interconnected platform, that is literally how it is.

[Fasauceome]

Just now, KarathKasun said:

If the publisher retains control of your access through a interconnected platform, that is literally how it is.

The publisher does not retain this control, that's exactly the point I'm making. 

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, fasauceome said:

I'm not sure if you're either implying that you've stolen something or that all used good sales are theft, but one is just regular piracy and the other is a little silly to assert.

It is all theft based on pirating principle.

Principle is what matters, and on that note, the second hand market is essentially theft from companies because they get no money once someone gives up on what they bought and sells it for profit to someone else.

 

Companies are selfish, if they could they would hand it to us people with a hammer and a nail and a 7 foot hole dug for us.

 

This whole online market place is the beginning of removing our freedom in that sense.

[KarathKasun]

Just now, fasauceome said:

The publisher does not retain this control, that's exactly the point I'm making. 

They do now, this is the new norm.

[Fasauceome]

Just now, KarathKasun said:

They do now, this is the new norm.

Not in the examples of all the used hardware and media being discussed, the companies did not control who their users were by eliminating access of used goods. There are far more examples of this type of control being absent than being present.

 

2 minutes ago, BetterThanLife said:

It is all theft based on pirating principle.

Principle is what matters, and on that note, the second hand market is essentially theft from companies because they get no money once someone gives up on what they bought and sells it for profit to someone else

Again, I contest that sale of a used good is some kind of theft. You buy something, you own it, and just because you give it to somebody else doesn't mean the manufacturer was robbed. If you purchase something, you own it, whereas theft necessitates that you profit off of something you don't own.

[KarathKasun]

Just now, fasauceome said:

Not in the examples of all the used hardware and media being discussed, the companies did not control who their users were by eliminating access of used goods. There are far more examples of this type of control being absent than being present.

That is my point, we are in a transition period of what is and is not "piracy".  What was not "piracy" is now considered "piracy"  This is the whole point of the thread.

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, fasauceome said:

Not in the examples of all the used hardware and media being discussed, the companies did not control who their users were by eliminating access of used goods. There are far more examples of this type of control being absent than being present.

 

Again, I contest that sale of a used good is some kind of theft. You buy something, you own it, and just because you give it to somebody else doesn't mean the manufacturer was robbed. If you purchase something, you own it, whereas theft necessitates that you profit off of something you don't own.

Principle of piracy is to have what you did not pay the creator for, so yes the second hand market, buying second hand from stores, used hardware and purchasing even broken parts and repairing them count under that principle as theft.

 

Piracy only caters to the creator and never to the consumer. It is essentially monopoly as entitlement, that WE MUST pay for a work of art.

Well imagine an art gallery charging you £50 every time you want to view it.

[Fasauceome]

1 minute ago, KarathKasun said:

That is my point, we are in a transition period of what is and is not "piracy".  What was not "piracy" is now considered "piracy"  This is the whole point of the thread.

I definitely don't believe that to be the case, I have not seen any consideration of used goods to be piracy, especially in the cases of the goods outlined above. Used consoles and gaming hardware have never been contested as theft, and despite digital media becoming more common and convenient, I believe that it's in no way representative of an impetus to block potential used buyers from using goods. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the crack down on emulators by Nintendo, which isn't really related.

[BetterThanLife]

1 minute ago, fasauceome said:

I definitely don't believe that to be the case, I have not seen any consideration of used goods to be piracy, especially in the cases of the goods outlined above. Used consoles and gaming hardware have never been contested as theft, and despite digital media becoming more common and convenient, I believe that it's in no way representative of an impetus to block potential used buyers from using goods. The only thing I can think of that comes close is the crack down on emulators by Nintendo, which isn't really related.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-swiss-watches-grey-market-idUSKBN17E2E8

[WereCatf]

1 minute ago, fasauceome said:

Used consoles and gaming hardware have never been contested as theft

Heh, this thread is the first and only time I've ever heard anyone ever claim that that is theft.

[BetterThanLife]

Just now, WereCatf said:

Heh, this thread is the first and only time I've ever heard anyone ever claim that that is theft.

If you understand logically what piracy bases it's principles on, then all intellectual property that was not paid to the creator by an individual is logically theft based on those principles.