Finnish police investigating legality of loot boxes

[Thaldor]

3 minutes ago, ZacoAttaco said:

If we're talking about FIFA alone, sure, most of the their revenue is from Europe, so you're not wrong there. But Belgium, Finland etc. are not just fighting FIFA, in games like Battlefront 2 and the recent Need For Speed game they have also had these lootboxes. Not to mention NHL and Madden games have the same Ultimate Team model and which I assume sells mostly in the NA area and make most of their micro-transaction money in that region also.

 

FIFA is their biggest money maker, Europe is their biggest money making region. So obviously they're going to fight to protect that.

 

What I'm saying is as long as they're legal in the US, these companies are going to continue to put lootboxes in because the NA market is so large, maybe they won't make much from FIFA but if you think about the other products that have lootboxes in them there's nothing stopping them.

 

If somehow the US banned lootboxes, then that would have a far greater affect on the gaming landscape than some of Europe banning them. But like I said, it's an interesting development and we'll see how things progress.

If they are forced to take loot boxes out of the games in EU alone, it would be pretty big hit and probably cause loot boxes being removed from NA version also.

 

Making a AAA game isn't cheap (well AAA just stands for highest budget "class") and if they would be forced to take loot boxes out of the EU version they would need to design and make a lot of changes for the EU release. Even if EU is smaller market than NA, it's still almost as big as NA and so huge that no company that works globally wants to loose that, even less willingly. Basicly EA and any other game publisher would need to make almost two games instead of one to include loot boxes in NA (and Asia) and that would mean more money spent on developing the game and that's almost the options they have; Spent a lot of money to develope other milking mechanics for EU version, forget EU as market or make a global version that doesn't have loot boxes (or suck it up and probably start paying every time increasing fines).

 

Not to even mention if the trend catches up but doesn't create whole EU scale "bans" on loot boxes, price tag to remove loot boxes to release the game in single coutries gets even bigger and just not release the game in countries that ban loot boxes isn't even really a question. Because no sane company would do that just because they then leave the country to their competitor or even worse, they leave the coutry open for a competitor to born (also even if we are talking about Belgium, Holland and Finland which all are not that big markets, Finland especially, they are still high prize coutries in the EU because even if there isn't a lot of population, the population in there has generally a more money to use on things like games, unlike something like Ukraine (just example, I don't have numbers) that has a lot more population than like Finland but that population doesn't have that much money to spent or smaller percentage of that population has that much money to spent).

[PlayStation 2]

I'm not sure what's up with all this loot box bullshit. Why can't every game do it like how TF2 and CS:GO does it and only make it so that cosmetically different shit is unboxable?

[Nowak]

10 minutes ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

I'm not sure what's up with all this loot box bullshit. Why can't every game do it like how TF2 and CS:GO does it and only make it so that cosmetically different shit is unboxable?

tbh if you were to ask me, not even cosmetic-only lootboxes are okay, because it's still really possible and easy to blow an entire month's rent or overcharge a card on trying to get that one cosmetic you want in an intentionally rigged system designed to get you to spend as much money as possible just so you can get the one thing you want

 

You should not have to spend $500+ on lootboxes just to get a single item, but that how they be. Good on Finland for investigating them as what they are, gambling.

[PlayStation 2]

11 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

tbh if you were to ask me, not even cosmetic-only lootboxes are okay, because it's still really possible and easy to blow an entire month's rent or overcharge a card on trying to get that one cosmetic you want in an intentionally rigged system designed to get you to spend as much money as possible just so you can get the one thing you want

 

You should not have to spend $500+ on lootboxes just to get a single item, but that how they be. Good on Finland for investigating them as what they are, gambling.

Here's my thing: if you're not in the financial situation to unbox crates and shit, why would you? And I'm speaking as someone who's wasted quite a lot of money on TF2.

Maybe I'm ignorant, maybe I'm actually thinking sanely, but it seems like if a person is unboxing crates when they aren't in a financial position to, they kinda deserve the consequences of their actions. Self-control isn't easy to learn, but it's a life enhancing thing to at least try to learn.

[Nowak]

6 minutes ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

Here's my thing: if you're not in the financial situation to unbox crates and shit, why would you? And I'm speaking as someone who's wasted quite a lot of money on TF2.

Maybe I'm ignorant, maybe I'm actually thinking sanely, but it seems like if a person is unboxing crates when they aren't in a financial position to, they kinda deserve the consequences of their actions. Self-control isn't easy to learn, but it's a life enhancing thing to at least try to learn.

They're designed to tempt you into opening them. Otherwise, you gotta play the game normally, which is (more often than not) designed to be intentionally tedious and grindy so you'd just buy the lootboxes instead of trying to earn them through gameplay. That's the idea. They don't give a damn if you're broke, they want your money.

 

Also, blaming the consumer when these things are designed to be psychologically manipulative is exactly what the corporations want you to do.

[PlayStation 2]

3 minutes ago, NowakVulpix said:

They're designed to tempt you into opening them. Otherwise, you gotta play the game normally, which is (more often than not) designed to be intentionally tedious and grindy so you'd just buy the lootboxes instead of trying to earn them through gameplay. That's the idea. They don't give a damn if you're broke, they want your money.

 

Also, blaming the consumer when these things are designed to be psychologically manipulative is exactly what the corporations want you to do.

Well yeah, welcome to the world of microtransactions and premium games. I used to play TF2 as a free-to-play and barely anything changes when you go premium. As I said, I've wasted too much money onto TF2, and can say that if you don't want to spend money on it, you don't need to.

 

Also, don't call me a corporate shill when I'm just saying that unboxing isn't necessary in certain games. Vote with your wallet, not with your mouth.

[ARikozuM]

10 minutes ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

Here's my thing: if you're not in the financial situation to unbox crates and shit, why would you? And I'm speaking as someone who's wasted quite a lot of money on TF2.

Maybe I'm ignorant, maybe I'm actually thinking sanely, but it seems like if a person is unboxing crates when they aren't in a financial position to, they kinda deserve the consequences of their actions. Self-control isn't easy to learn, but it's a life enhancing thing to at least try to learn.

They could just as easily make it so I can buy a desert camo for my P90 without having to open a crate. By locking it behind chance, they can make more money and give incentive for continuing to do so.

[Sky Spark]

Good, I hope EA hurts because of this. They deserve it.

[Nowak]

Just now, Dan Castellaneta said:

Also, don't call me a corporate shill when I'm just saying that unboxing isn't necessary in certain games. Vote with your wallet, not with your mouth.

In some games (like Overwatch), you don't have a choice. TF2 lets you just buy the cosmetics individually. Overwatch? You have to unbox them, or hope that RNG gives you enough currency to buy the cosmetic you want. With the exception of one Mercy skin, there's no alternative.

 

Also don't forget games like Evolve, which died because of how bogged down it was with microtransactions, as well as EA's Battlefront II and Middle-earth: Shadow of War, both of which had to be completely rebalanced around the idea of there being no grind with lootboxes as the "alternative" for getting the thing you want ^^

 

1 minute ago, ARikozuM said:

They could just as easily make it so I can buy a desert camo for my P90 without having to open a crate. By locking it behind chance, they can make more money and give incentive for continuing to do so.

Yeah, this. They're trying to rely on desire as a way to make more money. By locking things behind RNG, they're hoping they can incentivize you to spend more money. As I said, they don't give a damn if you're broke, they just want money.

[Sky Spark]

6 minutes ago, Dan Castellaneta said:

Also, don't call me a corporate shill

He didn't???

[ARikozuM]

8 minutes ago, Celli said:

He didn't???

I did!

 

/s

[handymanshandle]

It's a pretty simple solution, stop playing the game and/or stop buying the loot crates.

It doesn't matter if the dev made it easier to buy shit to progress, I think they should have that right as long as the playing the game itself method isn't too difficult and it's rewarding.

[Sky Spark]

38 minutes ago, pinksnowbirdie said:

I think they should have that right as long as the playing the game itself method isn't too difficult and it's rewarding.

Well, Belgium and Finland sure don't.

[Nowak]

47 minutes ago, pinksnowbirdie said:

It's a pretty simple solution, stop playing the game and/or stop buying the loot crates.

It doesn't matter if the dev made it easier to buy shit to progress, I think they should have that right as long as the playing the game itself method isn't too difficult and it's rewarding.

The problem with "just ignore them" is that gambling addictions are very real conditions that people deal with; it's easy to slip into, hard to come out and hard for gambling addicts to "just ignore them" when lootboxes are intentionally designed to be manipulative and prey on the weak-willed as a way of making shitloads of money on top of the initial purchase, which is apparently "required" even if your game is the most profitable entertainment product of all time.

[Aetheria]

On 9/16/2018 at 12:27 PM, ZacoAttaco said:

Maybe an unpopular opinion, Overwatch lootboxes are fine. I have nothing wrong with them and they should not be in the same categories as FIFA and the Battefront fiasco.

Nah, they're pretty shit. Overwatch isn't the worst culprit by any means, but they're still shit. A full-priced game which is completely locked down (no swapping with friends), and the whole progression system from day one was built around grinding those boxes. The way they handle seasonal events is especially dodgy, paywalling your halloween and xmas participation trophies that you can't reasonably obtain through the grind. It's not the most egregious example of sneaking a casino in to a game and causing someone to default on their mortgage, but it is a damn fine example of how to make a game an unrewarding slog just to milk cash out of players.

[Soonercoop]

We can keep getting upset about the way games are monetized and whatnot, but here's the thing- You are not forcibly compelled to open the damn things! EA is a slippery company, but why do we have to invite lawmakers to force it out? Yes, we're temporarily eliminating it now, but at what cost? Inviting lawmakers into regulating our games can only end one way, and it's gonna eventually be the EU outlawing titles that are available elsewhere. The bottom line is that if the items are not of actual real monetary value (They're not in 90% of cases), it's not real gambling. Is it teaching kids poor decision making? yeah. Should it result in an adult content rating? yes. Is it real gambling though? No, of course not. Boy, game regulation is one case where I'm glad that U.S. politicians are worth their salt.

[ARikozuM]

1 hour ago, Arokhantos said:

What worries me most right now is that they get rid of payed lootboxes but we don't get anything better in return or even worse we get nothing at all aka we forced to grind for anything and there wont be as much cosmetics added ever again to games, this is a huge turn down this thought alone makes me depressed, game critics aren't even talking about it but they all know lootboxes are gonna be replaced with something much worse and they completely ignoring it.

Something changed in the last decade or so. We used to get full games with all of the content we could need. We could buy expansions or DLC for post-release content like map packs or scenarios for approximately $15. Today, they’re trying to get away with just making a skin or two, while also making it just as expensive. 

 

Nothing stops these developers from making a system like Black Ops 1, Siege, or similar where playtime, wins, and skill gives all the credits needed to purchase anything in the game.

BO1: you played 10 games and you got X points to spend on gear, weapons, skills, and guns.

Siege: You win, you get a chance to roll for a pack. You didn’t win the roll, but it increased by 2% for the next try. You also get points for playing well and winning. These points are then used to purchase operators, gear, and outfits. 

 

Battlefront: You roll to get a hero, a core part of the game. 

Overwatch: You get a skin that does nothing, but costs money to make more probable. 

[Thaldor]

11 minutes ago, Arokhantos said:

 

I know how it used to be, and we got a lot more these days then we used to, and you have the same chance not buying lootboxes in OW, the only difference is time and if you have plenty of it and aren't easily burned out you never even have to buy lootboxes even if you want every single cosmetic.

Anyway lootboxes going away is not enough if there no standard for doing it right like being able to directly purchase cosmetics some games have been doing this for years already.

Too bad loot boxes are like some social organizations: few bad apples make the whole basket bad.

 

It has been seen already far too many times what happens if players just consentrate to that there's something good in a new milking way developers make and when the damage is already done, there's no way any amount of players can make publishers heads to turn. Like DLCs used to be a good thing and everybody consentrated on the developers that made good post-release additions to their games, but when the dirty publishers found out, they started to cut the games before release and release that cut content as DLCs and when players didn't raise their voices loud enough, even the good developers started to do the very same thing because it's easy money for them. Microtransactions used to be a good thing, you could customize your character and make little faster progression in the game with few squirrel belts, then publishers found out that they could make microtransactions necessity to proceed in the game and milk money from the players and again when no upright riots broke loose, even the good developers started to do the very same or at least give whales far bigger advantages.

 

Same thing will happen with loot boxes if nothing is done. It's a very good thing that they blow out to these dimensions now and that they can be interpolated as gambling because now there's also governments bossing publishers and not just the "few" players who have seen the same happen before. If EA didn't go so far over the line with the BF2 that it gaught governments eyes and opened them for the whole thing, who knows where we might have ended up this time. Future where only way to even play a game is to buy insane amounts of loot boxes and hope that you get the one item you need to beat the next boss? Sport games where if you don't buy loot boxes you have to play with some computer generated team that doesn't have a single member that is real while all the real players are behind the iron chains of loot boxes and without them, you cannot even really play the single-player?

 

Yes, developers and publishers probably come up with other ways to milk the players. Yes, that way might be even worse than loot boxes. But also there is a slight chance that what they come up with is better than a total game of luck to get what you want or even worse, what you need.

[ZacoAttaco]

5 hours ago, Aetheria said:

Nah, they're pretty shit. Overwatch isn't the worst culprit by any means, but they're still shit. A full-priced game which is completely locked down (no swapping with friends), and the whole progression system from day one was built around grinding those boxes. The way they handle seasonal events is especially dodgy, paywalling your halloween and xmas participation trophies that you can't reasonably obtain through the grind. It's not the most egregious example of sneaking a casino in to a game and causing someone to default on their mortgage, but it is a damn fine example of how to make a game an unrewarding slog just to milk cash out of players.

Everyone's free to have their opinion, I just think I and most people have never felt the urge to really use real money to buy Overwatch lootboxes. It's nothing I can't earn in game and to me for only cosmetics I'm not fazed about missing out on a few season skins.

[ZacoAttaco]

11 minutes ago, Arokhantos said:

This is why i hate reddit so much you just get downvoted and censored, if bought many lootboxes my self but i am at the point now that i don't have to anymore but sometimes i still do because i don't wanna spend 30 days playing Overwatch to unlock everything because i have plans to play something else for example in the meantime, while now i have more time to play Overwatch again, i really wanted to level my character for wow bfa launch, speaking of which now i can just buy a token convert that into currency and buy lootboxes that way without spending a cent, technically i am getting my payed lootboxes for free that way.

That's fine, you can spend your money on whatever you want. No judgement or downvotes here, I have no issue with that. For me personally it doesn't interest me but for others it will.

 

We're more talking about the lootboxes as a business practice and if it's fair in certain games.

 

You know what's funny though? FIFA 12 was when Ultimate Team started becoming popular, yet it's only the last few years or so that there's been a big push against it. It would have been a much easier fight had it have been fought earlier.