8700K vs. 7800X

[Davidwr80]

Hi,

My 6700K is not stable at any settings anymore (even at stock). It probably did not like that I tried to push it to 4.8 a few times with very high voltages.

Since I need more cores for video editing anyway, I thought about getting the i7 8700K. But I could not find any store that had it in stock and they all listed it at ~420€. Also, the better Z370 boards all cost about 300€, I think that's a bit too much.  

But then I looked at the 7800X and saw that it only costs about 350€, with pretty much the same specs as the 8700K. I saw a solid X299 board for 270€ as well.

So the question is: Should I wait until the 8700K is in stock and possibly pay more to get a bit higher clocks, or should I go with the 7800X now for less money?

 

8700K+Maximus X Hero = 720€

7800X+Prime X299-A = 620€

[Guest]

Get the Ryzen 7 series, if you are into production work. The current intel high end plattform has some optimisation issues with it's new meshed design and the cache structure. Which means i cannot really recommend it.

Either get the 8700K or a Ryzen 7 CPU (any in that series would work).

Threadripper is really good as well (expensive).

[Ordinarily_Greater]

But you can go update your BIOS and get a 7700K at cheaper cost

[Princess Luna]

The 8700k should be much better route, sadly Intel's fake paper launch does not help, try waiting another week or two, retailers have rumored that there is a whole new batch of the 8700k coming in November might make things worthier again.

 

If not I sincerely see Ryzen 7 as a much better deal than x299 i7 7800x over priced on a troll platform... the whole "can upgrade to i9 in the future" is pointless, by the time you feel upgrading you'll want Intel's 10nm processors with much better single thread performance and not sticking to old 14nm ones.... but that is just my opinion.

[Davidwr80]

Just now, FTL said:

Get the Ryzen 7 series, if you are into production work. The current high end plattform has some issues with it's new meshed design and the cache structure. Which means i cannot really recommend it.

Either get the 8700K or a Ryzen 7 CPU (any in that series would work).

I forgot to mention that I play at high framerates with a 144hz monitor, so a Ryzen 7 is not really an option for me. Is the cache-situation really that much of a problem?

[porina]

I don't know if anyone has done a side by side test with Coffee Lake, but the 7800X didn't do as well as Kaby Lake clock for clock in gaming. It is believe the different cache structure they switched to isn't so great. My 7800X sample I've tested to 4.3 GHz at stock voltage with Prime95 FMA3 workload, and 4.8 GHz with extra voltage and custom loop. Possible other benefits are extra ram bandwidth from quad channels, and AVX-512 once anything useful supports it. Plus you also know you have higher CPUs to upgrade to in future if there is a need to.

 

I also want to try 8700k myself, but until availability eases up, I only have a 8350k to play with as substitute. My sample seems stable for non-AVX workloads at 5.0 GHz with Noctua D15, but I haven't managed to stabilise 5.1 at all. It does feel easier to clock than the 7800X, although I don't know how much of that is from having 4 cores and no HT.

 

Having said all that, for consumer workloads including gaming, the 8700k is probably going to be better.

[porina]

3 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

Intel's fake paper launch does not help

It's either a fake launch, or a paper launch, but what is a fake paper launch?...  

2 minutes ago, Davidwr80 said:

I forgot to mention that I play at high framerates with a 144hz monitor, so a Ryzen 7 is not really an option for me. Is the cache-situation really that much of a problem?

Skylake-X isn't optimal for you then. You'll have to look it up but Hardware Unboxed did testing on it which was commonly referenced. It just wasn't giving the fps a 7700k was at same clock. I don't think it is anything to complain about too much, but if you want max fps, it isn't for you.

[Davidwr80]

4 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

The 8700k should be much better route, sadly Intel's fake paper launch does not help, try waiting another week or two, retailers have rumored that there is a whole new batch of the 8700k coming in November might make things worthier again.

 

If not I sincerely see Ryzen 7 as a much better deal than x299 i7 7800x over priced on a troll platform... the whole "can upgrade to i9 in the future" is pointless, by the time you feel upgrading you'll want Intel's 10nm processors with much better single thread performance and not sticking to old 14nm ones.... but that is just my opinion.

I should have mentioned that I use a high refresh rate monitor and that therefore Ryzen 7 is not an option. If I understand you correctly, you say I should go with the 8700K because of its better pricing.. but in my situation, the 7800X would be actually about 100€ cheaper.

[Ordinarily_Greater]

Also the 7800X Might get hot as the i9-7900X

[Davidwr80]

1 minute ago, porina said:

It's either a fake launch, or a paper launch, but what is a fake paper launch?...  

Skylake-X isn't optimal for you then. You'll have to look it up but Hardware Unboxed did testing on it which was commonly referenced. It just wasn't giving the fps a 7700k was at same clock. I don't think it is anything to complain about too much, but if you want max fps, it isn't for you.

1

Ok, I thought that there would not really be a difference in IPC between 7800X and the 7700K since everyone called Kaybelake a "Skylake on steroids" That basically just clocks higher. But as far as I understand, Skylake X clocks also higher than the original skylake cpus. 

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Davidwr80 said:

I should have mentioned that I use a high refresh rate monitor and that therefore Ryzen 7 is not an option. If I understand you correctly, you say I should go with the 8700K because of its better pricing.. but in my situation, the 7800X would be actually about 100€ cheaper.

The i7 7800X has really poor gaming performance FYI.

[Princess Luna]

Just now, porina said:

It's either a fake launch, or a paper launch, but what is a fake paper launch?...

Speaking out of own frustration, I had a buyer for my i7 6700 H110m 8gb Corsair VS, so I decided to do an i7 8700k build, even bought some stuff, traded my Maxwell TITAN X on a GTX 1080 Ti FE, bought 16gb of G.Skill Trident Z 3200mhzCL15 for memory and even bought the CoolerMaster Case Pro 3 with a Cooler Master Seidon 240mm AiO water cooler but those two thank god got cancelled by the seller because in the end I had to stick to my old components since:

 

Not a single mATX Z370 (case I wanted was mATX format), at least here in Brazil 100% of all made available motherboards are full ATX size exclusively and as mentioned by OP already good luck finding an available i7 8700k at all... every single where it is out of stock with people saying it might only get available in January now...

 

Moral of the story I gave up on this third 14nm refresh shit and I'm only upgrading (out of hobbyist because the locked i7 6700 is still a lot sufficient) when we finally have Ice Lake 10nm processors.

[Davidwr80]

2 minutes ago, Ordinarily_Greater said:

Also the 7800X Might get hot as the i9-7900X

that's not really a concern for me because I have a custom loop and a could always delid it. 

[Ordinarily_Greater]

1 minute ago, Princess Cadence said:

Moral of the story I gave up on this third 14nm refresh shit and I'm only upgrading (out of hobbyist because the locked i7 6700 is still a lot sufficient) when we finally have Ice Lake 10nm processors.

That is a great plan

[Ordinarily_Greater]

Just now, Davidwr80 said:

that's not really a concern for me because I have a custom loop and a could always delid it. 

Well i guess you can, but what about upgradibility?1

[Princess Luna]

9 minutes ago, Davidwr80 said:

I should have mentioned that I use a high refresh rate monitor and that therefore Ryzen 7 is not an option. If I understand you correctly, you say I should go with the 8700K because of its better pricing.. but in my situation, the 7800X would be actually about 100€ cheaper.

You'd be amazed to know that Ryzen 7 1700x OC'd to 3.9ghz is almost identical performing to the i7 7820x in games, because Skylake-X has a new cache system that hurts gaming performance tremendously, if not enough the processor also is no good overclocker to make up.

 

See the following games benchmarks show the r7 1700 equal to the higher end i7 7820x so imagine the i7 7800 MIGHT actually do even worse due to the cache thingy.

[Davidwr80]

1 minute ago, Ordinarily_Greater said:

Well i guess you can, but what about upgradibility?1

What do you mean by that? I guess there will be another CPU generation that fits X299 boards, same for Z370 boards.

[porina]

1 minute ago, Davidwr80 said:

Ok, I thought that there would not really be a difference in IPC between 7800X and the 7700K since everyone called Kaybelake a "Skylake on steroids" That basically just clocks higher. But as far as I understand, Skylake X clocks also higher than the original skylake cpus. 

Skylake-X seems to be made on same or similar process to Kaby Lake. I've not followed too closely on extreme overclocking of either, but certainly my 7800X I've run comfortably (if rather warm) at 4.8 GHz with a custom water loop. I'm hoping to get a delid tool some time to see how much that might help in allowing me to explore higher. I even did a suicide run and got 5.2 GHz with no stability whatsoever  

1 minute ago, FTL said:

The i7 7800X has really poor gaming performance FYI.

That's over stating it a bit. It'll still blow away Ryzen. It was only disappointing as it didn't manage to keep up with 7700k.

Just now, Princess Cadence said:

Speaking out of own frustration

Agreed on that! I wanted one too, the only 8700k on offer were pre-binned ones at massively elevated pricing. Sellers know they're in short supply and will bleed anyone dry if they dare to ask. 

[Princess Luna]

1 minute ago, Davidwr80 said:

I guess there will be another CPU generation that fits X299 boards

Actually no, next HEDT is 10nm Canon Lake / Ice lake based on a new chipset because #intel.

[Davidwr80]

2 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

Actually no, next HEDT is 10nm Canon Lake / Ice lake based on a new chipset because #intel.

Really? last time I used the "Enthusiast platform" I had an i7 3820 with an X79 board.  The later released the 4000 series which was also for X79. X99 had Haswell-E and Broadwell-E, so 2 generations of CPUs as well. Are they really going to have only Skyleake-X on X299?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, porina said:

Skylake-X seems to be made on same or similar process to Kaby Lake. I've not followed too closely on extreme overclocking of either, but certainly my 7800X I've run comfortably (if rather warm) at 4.8 GHz with a custom water loop. I'm hoping to get a delid tool some time to see how much that might help in allowing me to explore higher. I even did a suicide run and got 5.2 GHz with no stability whatsoever  

That's over stating it a bit. It'll still blow away Ryzen. It was only disappointing as it didn't manage to keep up with 7700k.

Agreed on that! I wanted one too, the only 8700k on offer were pre-binned ones at massively elevated pricing. Sellers know they're in short supply and will bleed anyone dry if they dare to ask. 

But, it didn't blow away Ryzen?

https://static.techspot.com/articles-info/1450/bench/Average.png

 

Quote

Compared to the 7800X, the R5 1600 deliveres a similar experience once overclocked and even at stock it was just 4% slower throughout our benchmarks. It also consumes less power, costs considerably less, and comes with a better cooler out of the box. The Ryzen 5 1600 is the obvious choice for gamers.

Source: techspot

[Ordinarily_Greater]

10 minutes ago, Davidwr80 said:

What do you mean by that? I guess there will be another CPU generation that fits X299 boards, same for Z370 boards.

Really? like the 8800X will be compatible with your board?

[Princess Luna]

Just now, Davidwr80 said:

Are they really going to have only Skyleake-X on X299?

Yeah it sucks no? but It is what it looks like, the z370 chipset also is for Coffee Lake only as Ice Lake is going to use z390 chipset.

 

My brother is a professional video editor, he works with footage made of weddings, graduations, events, parties and so on, it is a very busy business here in town he is on the PC all the time, originally he had an i7 3770 based system, we wanted to go i7 6900k but it was SOO SOOO expensive... then AMD came and we actually put together an entire Ryzen 7 1800x build for the price of a single i7 6900k alone and the performance gain over the old i7 3770 it was awesome.

 

Ryzen is a lot better than it seems if you'll do more than just game, now if gaming is the only thing you'll do then this is a no brainer, re-use your motherboard with an i7 7700k.

[porina]

9 minutes ago, Princess Cadence said:

Actually no, next HEDT is 10nm Canon Lake / Ice lake based on a new chipset because #intel.

I'd expect Kaby Lake-X on X299. The real one, not the consumer quad versions they offer right now.

1 minute ago, FTL said:

But, it didn't blow away Ryzen?

https://static.techspot.com/articles-info/1450/bench/Average.png

Fair enough, I can't say I've tested every game ever, maybe more modern titles scale across cores better mitigating some of the clock disadvantage. I was going by personal experience although it was long enough ago I can't recall the exact results, other than I spent ages putting in 980Ti SLI into my Ryzen 1700 box and then found it totally failed for high fps gaming. Even a 6600k was beating it (under comparable conditions), and I've now moved the two 980Tis into my 7800X system. It is giving me fps the 1700 can't even dream of.

[Davidwr80]

Just now, Princess Cadence said:

Yeah it sucks no? but It is what it looks like, the z370 chipset also is for Coffee Lake only as Ice Lake is going to use z390 chipset.

 

My brother is a professional video editor, he works with footage made of weddings, graduations, events, parties and so on, it is a very busy business here in town he is on the PC all the time, originally he had an i7 3770 based system, we wanted to go i7 6900k but it was SOO SOOO expensive... then AMD came and we actually put together an entire Ryzen 7 1800x build for the price of a single i7 6900k alone and the performance gain over the old i7 3770 it was awesome.

 

Ryzen is a lot better than it seems if you'll do more than just game, now if gaming is the only thing you'll do then this is a no brainer, re-use your motherboard with an i7 7700k.

In the video form Hardware unboxed you liked in your post, I encountered another drawback when going with Ryzen. It performs very well with 3200 DDR4, But I already have a quad-channel DDR4 @ 2400Mhz Kit and with Ram prices as they are right now, I really don't want to by new ram. In the video, the 1700 with 2666 Ram performs 14 fps worse on average than the 7820X and 17 fps worse at minimum.