Apple hatred, Why is it, Honestly?

[beebskadoo]

I could not read that with a straight face given your profile picture. I had quite the giggle, sir.

I can't do anything with a straight face..... gay joke har har

[Midnight]

1) Tell me how OS X is locked down and how Windows or Linux is so much more open. You can choose what hardware to use, you can choose your drivers, you can pick any software you want.

 

 

I won't argue for Windows, but Linux is indeed open-source... not sure how you can be more open than that. 

[Advent]

1. Apple has never tried to market as a laptop for gaming

 

2.That MSI laptop does not have similar specs at all. Basically your argument is any laptop that spends money on build quality is overpriced. Both do not have high resolution screens. The MBPr has 1600p screen vs 1080p of the larger bulky MSI laptop. MBPr has twice the number of pixels and a more color accurate display. MSI laptop is not that thin. The one you listed has 2 SSDs in RAID, but all that does is make it less reliable because of RAID0 and its still not as fast as the PCI SSD of the MBPr. The PCI SSD in this laptop is probably as fast as Linus's Rigs storage solution which is like 6 SSDs in RAID0 with a good RAID card. The MSI laptop has a decent trackpad. MSI laptop actually has less memory because the Apple one shares memory between CPU and GPU. I think you don't understand that build quality the screen and thinness/lightness cost tons. There is not a single laptop that is cheaper with that. There are laptops with similar specs that cost similar, but non have the PCI SSD. If you were to make the comparison between a Ultrabook or a thin and light vs the MBPr then it would be fair but your comparison is bollocks.

 

BTW, I use a UX301 as my laptop. I know it is overpriced for the raw specs but build, batterylife, and screen are extremely important to me. You may as well argue that the MSI is overpriced because you can build a PC with better specs for less.

1.) I never said it tried to market it as a gaming machine. They asked for limitations, I gave them one. Also Linux is open source. You can't get more open than that.

2.)That isn't my argument at all. Both do indeed have high resolution screens. 1080p is high resolution. The Macbook has a higher resolution screen. The MSI is large and "bulky" because it has a larger screen lol. It's almost the same weight and almost just as thin as the Macbook. RAID makes it less reliable? LOL WHAT!? RAID doesn't inherently make something less reliable. Also the speed is almost as fast, not just as fast.

I would never argue that vs a laptop. I cannot build a laptop. Comparing desktops to laptops is apples to oranges. You act as if anything that isn't a MBP has shitty build quality. Also I did make the comparison vs a thin and light. The MSI is 2 pounds heavier and 0.15 inches thicker. Would you rather it had a 13 inch display too?

The Macbook is Dimensions: 12.3"   x 8.6"     x 0.7"         Weight: 3.46 lbs

The MSI is         Dimensions: 16.47" x 11.29" x 0.85"       Weight: 5.73 lbs.

So for a Retina display, smaller screen. and 0.15" difference in thickness, and 2.27 lbs difference I am going to pay ~$900 more? No way.

[Advent]

I can't do anything with a straight face..... gay joke har har

http://subversify.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/49157-george-takei-oh-my-gif-e64l.gif

[beebskadoo]

http://subversify.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/49157-george-takei-oh-my-gif-e64l.gif

<3

[Dylan522p]

 

1.) I never said it tried to market it as a gaming machine. They asked for limitations, I gave them one. Also Linux is open source. You can't get more open than that.

2.)That isn't my argument at all. Also both do have high resolution screens. 1080p is high resolution. The Macbook has a higher resolution screen. Also its large and "bulky" because it has a larger screen lol. Its almost the same weight and almost just as thin. RAID makes it less reliable? LOL WHAT!? Its almost as fast, not just as fast.

I would never argue that vs a laptop. I cannot build a laptop. Comparing desktops to laptops is apples to oranges.

I never said anything about Linux. That must be the other dude. 1080p is high, but not cutting edge and the cost of making a 17" 1080p panel is not that high. The MSI is larger and bulkier because of the dGPU. Nowhere close to the same weight or just as thin. the weight difference is huge percentage wise. RAID doesn't make it less reliable, I was not clear, RAID0 does. Just ask anyone whether 1 SSD or 2 in RAID0 that isn't as fast is better. Hell ask Linus he will tell you how unreliable a RAID0 solution of SSDs is compared to one.

 

Comparing these two laptops is like apples and oranges. It's like arguing for a F350 (raw power of the MSI) vs a nice looking European or Asian sports car (thinness and prettyness and speed of the rMBP). Both are great, but for different people. The use case of each is different. Would you argue that a F350 that costs less than $100,000 is a better vehicle than a 100k+ Ferrari? No because they may both be cars (laptops) but they are for different uses. F350 is for towing and heavy duty work while the Ferrari is for racing and being nice to use and easy to use.

[Advent]

 

 

Nowhere close to the same weight or just as thin. the weight difference is huge percentage wise.

 

Did you not read?

The Macbook is Dimensions: 12.30" x 8.60"   x 0.70"     Weight: 3.46 lbs

The MSI is         Dimensions: 16.47" x 11.29" x 0.85"      Weight: 5.73 lbs.

The Macbook is 0.15" thinner and 2.27 lbs lighter. That is almost nothing. That's like 2 nickles thick worth of difference. And 2 pounds? That isn't that much. It's not like I'm comparing an old laptop that weights like 10 pounds. No shit its larger and weights more, it has a 17 inch display. 

 

 

being nice to use and easy to use.

Looks are subjective and so is ease of use. So that shouldn't even be a part of the argument. Had you read my initial statement I said that spec wise, not aesthetically that Apples are overpriced and underpowered vs other market competitors. You are basing your argument on subjective things (perspective and aesthetics) rather than on the performance of each machine. When you get right down to it, minus the retina display and a difference in SSD performance (not that huge mind you) the MSI is a better machine spec wise. It has double the RAM. 2 x+ the storage capacity and a faster CPU with more cores.

Also there is no way that the Retina display, PCI SSD or the Intel Graphics + aesthetics together amount to a $900 difference. At least not Apple's cost. You take away the hype and the Apple logo and the machine would be reasonably priced.

Also have you ever driven a Ferrari? They are not easy to drive or maintain. Especially if you have never had any experience behind the wheel of a high end sports car at speed. Not to mention the problems they have getting over speed bumps and making the transition between street and driveway without scratching up the front/bottom or back bumper.

Given the specifications both these laptops would qualify as sports cars. One is all flash and some substance. The other is mostly substance and no flash.

 

[Dylan522p]

Did you not read?

The Macbook is Dimensions: 12.30" x 8.60"   x 0.70"     Weight: 3.46 lbs

The MSI is         Dimensions: 16.47" x 11.29" x 0.85"      Weight: 5.73 lbs.

The Macbook is 0.15" thinner and 2.27 lbs lighter. That is almost nothing. That's like 2 nickles thick worth of difference. And 2 pounds? That isn't that much. It's not like I'm comparing an old laptop that weights like 10 pounds.

 

Looks are subjective and so is ease of use. So that shouldn't even be a part of the argument. Had you read my initial statement I said that spec wise, not aesthetically that Apples are overpriced and underpowered vs other market competitors. You are basing your argument on subjective things (perspective and aesthetics) rather than on the performance of each machine. When you get right down to it, minus the retina display and a difference in SSD performance (not that huge mind you) the MSI is a better machine spec wise. It has double the RAM. 2 x+ the storage capacity and a faster CPU with more cores.

Also there is no way that the Retina display, PCI SSD or the Intel Graphics + aesthetics together amount to a $900 difference. At least not Apple's cost. You take away the hype and the Apple logo and the machine would be reasonably priced.

Also have you ever driven a Ferrari? They are not easy to drive or maintain. Especially if you have never had any experience behind the wheel of a high end sports car at speed. Not to mention the problems they have getting over speed bumps and making the transition between street and driveway without scratching up the front/bottom or back bumper.

 

2.3 lbs is a huge difference when you consider that is like 70% of the devices weight. Also the MBPr is not that light of a thin and light and it is on the thick side because they allow configs with dGPU. The retina display panel is expensive ass hell. Lets look at a lower range of specs of the MBPr for 1499. The storage solution of the MBPr is also more expensive (that 500gb SSD is expensive as hell while 2 128gb SSDs and a TB HDD is much cheaper. The build quality difference is also huge, It's not an apple cost. Find a similar spec thin and light or Ultrabook for cheaper. You can't. I would have agreed when it was the old MBP or the old MBAs, but this year they dropped price and upped specs to the equivilant level of Windows laptop OEMs. Quit looking at a MSI gaming laptop that is fairly bulky (noways over 4LBs is considered bulky in case you have been out of the market for long). Either every thin and light and ultrabook of similar specs is overpriced or none are. You also forget that Intel charges up the ass for Iris iGPU CPUs the quadcore that MSI's laptop has and the Iris chip Apple used have similar costs $378 vs $337.Take away the hype and the apple logo and you still have similar machines (Ativ Book 9 Thinkpad Yoga, UX 301/302, and many more are all 1300+ for the models that are configured similar to the same MBPr cofigured that way). Quit saying there is an Apple tax on Notebooks becuase there simply isn't with this gen. Last gen and the ones before yes.

 

Also you took the metaphor too damn far. I have never driven a car that costed more than 100k, I own a Jeep and a F150 Raptor. Both of which are vehicle that don't need crazy amounts of maintenance.

[Advent]

2.3 lbs is a huge difference when you consider that is like 70% of the devices weight. Also the MBPr is not that light of a thin and light and it is on the thick side because they allow configs with dGPU. The retina display panel is expensive ass hell. Lets look at a lower range of specs of the MBPr for 1499. The storage solution of the MBPr is also more expensive (that 500gb SSD is expensive as hell while 2 128gb SSDs and a TB HDD is much cheaper. The build quality difference is also huge, It's not an apple cost. Find a similar spec thin and light or Ultrabook for cheaper. You can't. I would have agreed when it was the old MBP or the old MBAs, but this year they dropped price and upped specs to the equivilant level of Windows laptop OEMs. Quit looking at a MSI gaming laptop that is fairly bulky (noways over 4LBs is considered bulky in case you have been out of the market for long). Either every thin and light and ultrabook of similar specs is overpriced or none are. You also forget that Intel charges up the ass for Iris iGPU CPUs the quadcore that MSI's laptop has and the Iris chip Apple used have similar costs $378 vs $337.Take away the hype and the apple logo and you still have similar machines (Ativ Book 9 Thinkpad Yoga, UX 301/302, and many more are all 1300+ for the models that are configured similar to the same MBPr cofigured that way). Quit saying there is an Apple tax on Notebooks becuase there simply isn't with this gen. Last gen and the ones before yes.

 

Also you took the metaphor too damn far. I have never driven a car that costed more than 100k, I own a Jeep and a F150 Raptor. Both of which are vehicle that don't need crazy amounts of maintenance.

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm used to an Apple where things have always been "taxed" due to the brand. Maybe Apple will continue the trend and keep things priced low and specs relatively high.  ~.~

:V Also I don't own a Ferrari. I've driven one and boy are they a bitch to handle @ high speed unless you are used to it. Also speedbumps? NOPE! Drive around them.

Also the weight is closer to 60% of the devices weight.

[Lyons]

Except they aren't wrong.

OS X is locked down compared to Linux or Windows. It is more proprietary as far as what drivers you can use, what software you have to use, what hardware etc. It is no where near as customizable as Linux or Windows.

Apple hasn't really innovated (Innovate - To begin or introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time.) anything since the iPhone/iPod/iPad/Macbook Air/Pro. What innovations have they brought to their latest line of notebooks, phones or tablets that didn't exist in some shape or form in their 1st/2nd generation besides the retina display? A change in size and thickness? The look of the product? A few "features"?

As far as theft is concerned saying "who doesn't do that" isn't an excuse. Also we aren't talking about other products. This discussion is about Apple. The same thing goes for child labor. Windows (Microsoft) doesn't use child labor as far as I know, nor does Linux.

Apple is overpriced compared to buying a prebuilt PC or building your own. How can you think otherwise? A comparable Apple system, to say a $1200 laptop cost almost double the price in most cases for the same specs. It isn't subjective at all. Price is price. System specs are system specs. If two machines have similar specs but one cost near double that of the other than the latter is overpriced. Nothing subjective about it. The same goes for underpowered. See below:

MacBook Pro

13-inch with Retina display

Specifications:

2.6GHZ dual-core Intel Core i5 (turbo boost up to 3.1GHz)

8 GB 1600MHz memory

512GB PCIe-based flash storage

Intel Iris Graphics

OS X

Built-in battery (9 hours)

Dimensions: 12.3" x 8.6" x 0.7"

Weight: 3.46 lbs

$1,799

VS

MSI GS70 2OD-002US

17.3" Display Full HD

Specifications:

2.40GHz Intel Core i7 4700HQ Quad-Core (Each core offers a base speed of 2.4 GHz but can dynamically increase clock rates with Turbo Boost up to 3.2 GHz (for 4 active cores), 3.3 GHz (for 2 active cores) and 3.4 GHz (for 1 active core).

16GB Memory

1TB HDD

128GB x 2 SSD

GTX 765M 2GB

Windows 8

Dimensions: 16.47" x 11.29" x 0.85"

Weight: 5.73 lbs.

$1,749

And that is only one of dozens of examples that I can dig up that proves my point. Apple is over priced and underpowered vs its market competitors. Who in their right mind is going to pay almost $2,000 for a 13 inch display laptop with a dual-core i5, 8 GB of RAM and only 512 GB of storage with 1GB of GPU memory?? The MSI laptop listed above is almost double all those specifications for less money (only ~$50, but still).

As far as being proprietary is concerned no one is as proprietary as Apple. If your hardware fails you have to get Apple hardware. If your OS fails you have to get Apple OS. If a component on my PC fails I can go to any one of numerous vendors to get my parts. I have multiple price points to select from. The same goes for my OS. I can go Linux or I can go Windows. The average user is not going to put Windows on their Apple. Not to mention that the average user isn't going to have the special torx bits or screwdrivers to remove Apples proprietary screws.

Textbook ignorant response that I was waiting for, same goes for your other recent responses. I'll respond when I get home and I'm not on my phone.

[Advent]

Textbook ignorant response that I was waiting for, same goes for your other recent responses. I'll respond when I get home and I'm not on my phone.

Glad you could join the discussion, Mr. Neutral.

[Dylan522p]

Textbook ignorant response that I was waiting for, same goes for your other recent responses. I'll respond when I get home and I'm not on my phone.

If you look at my replies, I already did go through the bulk of the argument against what he said but yeah go for it.

 

Maybe I'm wrong. I'm used to an Apple where things have always been "taxed" due to the brand. Maybe Apple will continue the trend and keep things priced low and specs relatively high.  ~.~

:V Also I don't own a Ferrari. I've driven one and boy are they a bitch to handle @ high speed unless you are used to it. Also speedbumps? NOPE! Drive around them.

Also the weight is closer to 60% of the devices weight.

 

Apple still has a premium price on phones along with Samsung for no reason, (they are both $100 and ussually more than any of their competitors.) but the rest of their product stack is fair. Apple has gotten so large that their size allows them to save on parts compared to other manufactures because of the bulk of their orders and vertical integration they have. They pass that savings onto you, while still keeping their margins. If you actually look at their products compared to competitors they are very fair in the MBA, MBPr, iMacs, Mac Mini, and even the Mac Pro (compare it to similar workstation machines, you get from Dell, HP, and others, not gaming rigs or whatever other ridiculous shit some people compare it to)

[Lyons]

This ought to be good. Glad you could join the discussion, Mr. Neutral.

Having a social life requires that I'm not on my phone/computer participating in petty arguments on the Internet for large portions of the weekend.

[Advent]

Having a social life requires that I'm not on my phone/computer participating in petty arguments on the Internet for large portions of the weekend.

Now we are resorting to thinly veiled attacks? Oh boy. This is getting interesting. What's next? Fully blown ad hominem slinging?

I'm pretty sure everyone or almost everyone on here has a social life. Also my response was just noting the fact that up until now you haven't voiced an opinion. You've only said "wrong/subjective" or called people ignorant. I look forward to you actually expressing an opinion that is more than 8 characters long.

[Lyons]

Now we are resorting to thinly veiled attacks? Oh boy. This is getting interesting. What's next? Fully blown ad hominem slinging?

I'm pretty sure everyone or almost everyone on here has a social life. Also my response was just noting the fact that up until now you haven't voiced an opinion. You've only said "wrong/subjective" or called people ignorant. I look forward to you actually expressing an opinion that is more than 8 characters long.

All I'm saying is that I'm busy... Don't take it personally. If you really want my opinion right now search the history of almost every Mac vs the world thread. It's all there.

[Advent]

All I'm saying is that I'm busy... Don't take it personally. If you really want my opinion right now search the history of almost every Mac vs the world thread. It's all there.

I've been busy since I started replying here. I'm working from home this weekend on Hyper-V systems.

Regarding your opinion, I can wait. Take your time.

[LaoJr]

They make decent products.

 

They suck balls as a company. Calling things innovation, while they didn't invent anything (except the iPod, perhaps). Then suing everyone and their dog about anything and everything. 

What I was gonna say when I see this post. Their products are subpar and okay the only thing I would ever buy that is apple DNA is their macbook pro and IPad cause thing is something a monster of a notebook and tablet . IPhone ehhhhhhhh I don't like, it took 7 IPhones for me to finally try one out and it was okay but having android on my side was way better than IOS7 IMO.

[James_AJ]

People do not want to believe in/understand the value in user experience - the experience Apple engineers and designers worked to make it so seamless and even enjoyable.

Tell me - why do people buy WS boards again? (answer in Linus' video editing rig video; it's not the same answer but that it just works and it works wonders is the answer)

[mr moose]

People do not want to believe in/understand the value in user experience - the experience Apple engineers and designers worked to make it so seamless and even enjoyable.

Tell me - why do people buy WS boards again? (answer in Linus' video editing rig video; it's not the same answer but that it just works and it works wonders is the answer)

The problem is that that apple experience only appeals to about 8% of the population.  This discussion is not about apple products being good or bad, it is about how they appeal to people. And the fact of the matter is they only appeal to a small percentage of the population.  Advent is only trying to tell people why it doesn't appeal to him and some of you are trying to tell him he is wrong, that he is ignorant.  That is just a silly response. He is the only one who can tell you what appeals to him,  and if he doesn't feel that any apple products meet his needs, be it cost, OS layout, software support then they don't. it doesn't make him wrong it just means for his needs apple is not the product.   If he said he did not like the color blue, would you guys tell him the only reason he doesn't like blue is because he is ignorant of his own perception of color and if he every truly saw blue he would like it? Of course not. 

[Dylan522p]

The problem is that that apple experience only appeals to about 8% of the population.  This discussion is not about apple products being good or bad, it is about how they appeal to people. And the fact of the matter is they only appeal to a small percentage of the population.  Advent is only trying to tell people why it doesn't appeal to him and some of you are trying to tell him he is wrong, that he is ignorant.  That is just a silly response. He is the only one who can tell you what appeals to him,  and if he doesn't feel that any apple products meet his needs, be it cost, OS layout, software support then they don't. it doesn't make him wrong it just means for his needs apple is not the product.   If he said he did not like the color blue, would you guys tell him the only reason he doesn't like blue is because he is ignorant of his own perception of color and if he every truly saw blue he would like it? Of course not. 

You are exactly correct. Thing is, even with 10% the PC and 20% the phone market, Apple is content with that and it still makes them one of the most profitable companies in the world.

[bob345]

The apple hate is because of the fanboys. Clean and simple

[mr moose]

You are exactly correct. Thing is, even with 10% the PC and 20% the phone market, Apple is content with that and it still makes them one of the most profitable companies in the world.

that's true, and only idiots will argue with that.  And there is a reason why they are the worlds most valuable company, but there is also a reason why they have less than 8% of the market. It is a specific product that appeals to specific people.

 

I guess the biggest problem with this thread is that if we ask people why they hate or don't use a particular product, then the answer can really only be negative.

[Advent]

The apple hate is because of the fanboys. Clean and simple

Not at all in my case. I'm not a fan boy of any platform. I've used Windows since 3.1, Apple since 3.3-3.4 on the SE and Linux (keep typing Linus.. GET OUT OF MY HEAD LINUS :V) since early Red Hat. Each platform has their specific strengths and weaknesses and flaws.

[bob345]

Not at all in my case. I'm not a fan boy of any platform. I've used Windows since 3.1, Apple since 3.3-3.4 on the SE and Linux (keep typing Linus.. GET OUT OF MY HEAD LINUS :V) since early Red Hat. Each platform has their specific strengths and weaknesses and flaws.

Yeah, you are not the kind of guy I meant by fanboy. I mean the people who say "this is better than that other brand and superior in every way shape and form. All other products suck"

[Advent]

Yeah, you are not the kind of guy I meant by fanboy. I mean the people who say "this is better than that other brand and superior in every way shape and form. All other products suck"

I'm autistic (literally, I have Aspergers) so I tend to think people might be referring to me when they aren't. Just one of the quirks. Also the need to explain myself to anything I might find relevant or somehow related to my position....