Ryzen Gaining in Games?

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

Can anyone find a fault in his video?  If this is true, it is really, really good.

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

Yes, I know -- that's a really clickbaity thumbnail.  The video is not as 1-sided.

[yathis]

Its too early to say really, too many bugs

[ARikozuM]

About damn time AMD starts closing the gap.

[Tellos]

really the reason it's closing is people getting games even slightly more optimized for it, learning faster memory more strongly affects performance and the motherboard improvements all adding up to moderate gains which just make it more clear that Ryzen won;t likely throttle Intel but will remain competitive. Which is all they need to do to push intel.

[yathis]

16 minutes ago, Tellos said:

Which is all they need to do to push intel.

Intel is probably holding back all their gains to keep ahead of AMD at all times by a certain margin.

This is purely a profit motive and I think its 100% correct.

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

4 hours ago, Tellos said:

really the reason it's closing is people getting games even slightly more optimized for it, learning faster memory more strongly affects performance and the motherboard improvements all adding up to moderate gains which just make it more clear that Ryzen won;t likely throttle Intel but will remain competitive.

He said that the only change was BIOS.

[Tellos]

@N3v3r3nding_N3wb others have found the other things I mentioned. So it's not just the bio updates.

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

4 hours ago, Tellos said:

@N3v3r3nding_N3wb others have found the other things I mentioned. So it's not just the bio updates.

Yeah, but I was specifically talking about this video.

[Tellos]

the op asked if I found fault with it and I do, it assumes the bio update alone did it.

[Kinda Bottlenecked]

 

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

4 hours ago, Tellos said:

the op asked if I found fault with it and I do, it assumes the bio update alone did it.

I do agree that it could've technically been a game update, but to my knowledge only Ashes of the Singularity: Escalation has been Ryzen-optimized so far.  Besides that, as it states, everything else was the same.  Yes, I would have liked to have seen the tests be a bit more scientific, but nothing overtly wrong has been brought up.

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

4 hours ago, Pohernori said:

 

I am watching that now, actually.

[Tellos]

@N3v3r3nding_N3wb My point is Ryzens brand new still, nobody has had more than a few months to deal with it. Also Ryzen wasint out when ashes was made  and so it was not optimized. Recently a patch was made doing this. What your missing is it was optimized before to use more THREADS which was different. Most games use 1 to 4 but Ashes was fine using more and woudl if allowed.This is why I5 tended to find themselves not running as well as they did on some other games as the system hurled threads at the CPU in buckets. Ryzen jsut had more to begin with so it was not as overwhelmed. What we have learned is the infinity link on the Ryzen chips is directly affected in terms of it's clock speed by the RAM in use. This is not a bios error it's a design feature built into the chip. next we have seen evidence of less than optimal use of SMT threading tech by OS's partly due to AMDs tight lips on the chip beforehand and jsut it beign new. Microsoft has stated it's working to fix this issue. Atop it all Ryzens less than 4 months old while even the newest intel chips are over 8 months. Intel also has been the main game in town so most developers have kept up with intels changes because AMD hasint changed until Ryzen PEROID!

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

4 hours ago, Tellos said:

@N3v3r3nding_N3wb My point is Ryzens brand new still, nobody has had more than a few months to deal with it. Also Ryzen wasint out when ashes was made  and so it was not optimized. Recently a patch was made doing this. What your missing is it was optimized before to use more THREADS which was different. Most games use 1 to 4 but Ashes was fine using more and woudl if allowed.This is why I5 tended to find themselves not running as well as they did on some other games as the system hurled threads at the CPU in buckets. Ryzen jsut had more to begin with so it was not as overwhelmed. What we have learned is the infinity link on the Ryzen chips is directly affected in terms of it's clock speed by the RAM in use. This is not a bios error it's a design feature built into the chip. next we have seen evidence of less than optimal use of SMT threading tech by OS's partly due to AMDs tight lips on the chip beforehand and jsut it beign new. Microsoft has stated it's working to fix this issue. Atop it all Ryzens less than 4 months old while even the newest intel chips are over 8 months. Intel also has been the main game in town so most developers have kept up with intels changes because AMD hasint changed until Ryzen PEROID!

I know that, in general, this is why there will be performance increases.  That does not, however, describe a fault in the video. That was my main reason for this thread -- I couldn't find much wrong with it, but know that I am just one person and that I don't know it all.  I was bringing the video to the attention of the LTT forums to see if someone else had opinions on this video in particular.

 

Broadly, I agree with you on the reasons for performance gains, but in this specific video it does seem that the faith in BIOS revisions were more well-placed than in Bulldozer's.  Do you disagree with that?

[Tellos]

@N3v3r3nding_N3wb In terms of the bios updates helping? No that they are a main driving factor on their own, I feel it's a bit overblown. Also we have to remember not all bios updates are made equal.

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

4 hours ago, Tellos said:

Also we have to remember not all bios updates are made equal.

Obviously, not all BIOS updates are made equal, but it shows the potential and the current gains by BIOS updates.

4 hours ago, Tellos said:

@N3v3r3nding_N3wb In terms of the bios updates helping? No that they are a main driving factor on their own, I feel it's a bit overblown.

D'you have a reason for that?  It explicitly states in the video that the only change in the system was the BIOS version.

[Tellos]

@N3v3r3nding_N3wb The aforementioned connection between CCX's. No bios updates is changing that and it has more effect than i feel the bios updates will. Because it has a direct capping effect on how fast the CPU can do some things. So RAM speed is the only thing that affects this and thus faster memory will in that case do more than any BIOS update. if i can grab and make work 3600mhz RAM it'll do more than a bios update with 2166mhz.

[DrMikeNZ]

I have personally not seen any performance improvement with any of the BIOS updates (Gigabyte X370 Gaming 5).

 

I have however seen erratic performance, and the difference in the video could be margin of error from one test to another without making any changes at all.

[sgloux3470]

1 hour ago, Tellos said:

really the reason it's closing is people getting games even slightly more optimized for it, learning faster memory more strongly affects performance and the motherboard improvements all adding up to moderate gains which just make it more clear that Ryzen won;t likely throttle Intel but will remain competitive. Which is all they need to do to push intel.

Ryzen is absolutely trashing intel, people just haven't noticed yet.

 

1. Price.  You can get 6c/12t for the same price as intels 4c/4t.

2. IPC.  We thought we were optimistic a year or two ago expecting haswell IPC.  We got broadwell-e.  And SMT scales better than HT pushing AMD's performance past intels in many workloads.

3. Multithreaded workloads.  AMD is doing everything Intel does here much cheaper.  $330 CPU matches a $1500 one. 

4. Power efficiency.  It's funny how everyone stops talking about power consumption when AMD is winning, but won't shut up about housefires when they're not.  I even saw a few benchmarks where reviewers went out of their way to downclock intel chips just so they could be at the top of the graphs. 

5. Gaming.  When paired with high speed RAM we're seeing Ryzen achieve way better 1% and 0.1% minimum framerates, which is the metric people should be paying attention to.  Widespread reports of Ryzen being a silky smooth gaming experience all over.  A $220 R5 1600 will largely perform identically at the same clockspeeds that we're seeing from the R7 lineup as well, which means better than the i5 in most cases.

 

As it stands right now the only CPU's worth any money right now in intel's lineup are the 7700K and the G4560.  Everything in between or beyond is outmatched by Ryzen by offering more cores, better power consumption/thermals and smoother gaming.  The only reason for the 7700K is for high refresh rate gaming, and the G4560 is still the best budget option for now.

 

 

But alas, the 7700K has slightly higher maximum framerates in some cases so everyone is going to keep pretending that Intel didn't have their entire line up blown the fuck out.  What Ryzen has done is the equivalent of a $100 GPU performing almost on the same level as the TitanXP and people are focused on a minor FPS differential.  They're ignoring the cost effectiveness simply because the R5's haven't launched yet and they're going "Well the R7 1700 is the same price as the 7700K, and the 7700K sort of beats it in very specific scenarios, so I guess Ryzen sucks."   They're right to not recommend the R7 1700 to pure gamers because the R5 1600 represents even better value than the R7 1700 does.

 

 

 

[N3v3r3nding_N3wb]

4 hours ago, Tellos said:

@N3v3r3nding_N3wb The aforementioned connection between CCX's. No bios updates is changing that and it has more effect than i feel the bios updates will. Because it has a direct capping effect on how fast the CPU can do some things. So RAM speed is the only thing that affects this and thus faster memory will in that case do more than any BIOS update. if i can grab and make work 3600mhz RAM it'll do more than a bios update with 2166mhz.

Of course it will, but that doesn't invalidate this video's results!

[Tellos]

@sgloux3470 Thats because the 7700k is the most recent Chip designs by intel so no it's entire line up is not being thrashed and even places where AMD is winning it's not doing so by the stupidly high numbers AMD printed. I:ve seen dozens of benchmarks and it's just not happening. But thats fine those gains only really get noticed in benchmarks really. Most playing on Ryzen with good rigs are not gonna suddenly goign to notice 5 to 8 frames per second. Also I am not talking price strictly performance. Price wise AMD is making intel wet the bed and shit it's pants. 

 

What the vast majority of gamers WILL notice. is they can get smooth great frame rate gaming on most modern games on good rigs using Ryzen for less than Intel prices. so what if Intel can get you 180FPS and Ryzen only 170FPS on the same game with same settings. Fact is your getting awesome performance for less.

[DrMikeNZ]

7 minutes ago, sgloux3470 said:

3. Multithreaded workloads.  AMD is doing everything Intel does here much cheaper.

Not everything. Ryzen's AVX2 performance is halved.

[sgloux3470]

Just now, DrMikeNZ said:

Not everything. Ryzen's AVX2 performance is halved.

I'm sure there are edge cases, but by and large Ryzen performs very well.

 

3 minutes ago, Tellos said:

@sgloux3470 Thats because the 7700k is the most recent Chip designs by intel so no it's entire line up is not being thrashed and even places where AMD is winning it's not doing so by the stupidly high numbers AMD printed. I:ve seen dozens of benchmarks and it's just not happening. But thats fine those gains only really get noticed in benchmarks really. Most playing on Ryzen with good rigs are not gonna suddenly goign to notice 5 to 8 frames per second. Also I am not talking price strictly performance. Price wise AMD is making intel wet the bed and shit it's pants. 

 

What the vast majority of gamers WILL notice. is they can get smooth great frame rate gaming on most modern games on good rigs using Ryzen for less than Intel prices. so what if Intel can get you 180FPS and Ryzen only 170FPS on the same game with same settings. Fact is your getting awesome performance for less.

The R5 1500X and 1600 outmatch the i3 and i5 no problem.  If not in raw framerate but in multitasking.  Even if an i3 competes with the 1400/1500X in gaming... it's got half the mutlitasking ability.

 

And who the hell is going to buy any of the extreme edition chips now with such a massive price difference? 

 

Ryzen surpassed almost all but the wildest speculations.  The hype train perhaps gained more momentum than it should have, but I don't think anyone really expected such a massive improvement over Piledriver in every category. 

 

 

[MoonSpot]

Don't know about everyone else, but the big answers I want in regards to RyZen at this point are:

• Infinity Fabrics limits.  At what point(s) does it start to fail in keeping up with RAM speeds.  Since OC the ram OC's the I.F. shit has to fall apart at some point.  Doesn't it?
• RAM, forking want some detailed lists of vendors/brands their timings and A-typical OC limits.  Might have to start brown nosing @MageTank tuchus something fierce for that.(Got oils, am willing [/winks])

After that I just gotta nail down a 1440/4k freesync monitor that doesn't bust my balls.  Dreamseller(Korean monitors) doesn't seem to be doing any big favours anymore, but I'm Canadian so shit currency might be thing there, and haven't been monitoring monitor prices till recently so rose coloured goggles may also be obscuring my perception.  But fucken hell monitors got stupid expensive imo.