Is game piracy ethical.

[A/C]

23 minutes ago, Paralectic said:

"Piracy is theft" 

lmaoooooooo no, it's copying, not stealing.

Not sure trolling or actually serious...

 

21 minutes ago, Papakuma said:

What about abandon-ware or older games that are no longer available for purchase? Is it ethical to download a ROM for a game that is not for sale, the publisher / developer is no longer in business or unknown? 

 

That's different, just like with physical things, it's not stealing if it's "abandoned".

 

Also IMHO it's not piracy if you use an emulator to emulate, say, NES games as long as you own a working NES and that specific game.

 

Many people fail to grasp the concept of copyright works. There's a whole law category dedicated to works of art and other copyright works, IMHO video games go in the same category. But to dumb it down, it's forbidden to make unauthorized copies of books, video cassettes and such, and in the same way, it's forbidden to rip and make unauthorized copies of software.

[noisebomb44]

6 minutes ago, A/C said:

Also IMHO it's not piracy if you use an emulator to emulate, say, NES games as long as you own a working NES and that specific game.

Thats not always true, say for example you emulate a WII U/ 3DS console on your computer, (we will probably be able to do that any time now, there is already plenty of gameplay showing wii u games running pretty good at half speed on emulators) but you bought the game you are emulating from the store, im not sure about what the law says about it but i believe it should be illegal since the company relies on the profit of those consoles to make their games with, and didnt design them for people to be able to just buy the games and ignore the console.

7 minutes ago, A/C said:

Many people fail to grasp the concept of copyright works. There's a whole law category dedicated to works of art and other copyright works, IMHO video games go in the same category. But to dumb it down, it's forbidden to make unauthorized copies of books, video cassettes and such, and in the same way, it's forbidden to rip and make unauthorized copies of software.

Its also forbidden to post pictures of mickey mouse and company logos on social media (atleast where i live), but that doesnt mean its not ethical

I believe most people (especially OP) knows its illegal but the question is if its ethical

[A/C]

2 minutes ago, noisebomb44 said:

Thats not always true, say for example you emulate a WII U/ 3DS console on your computer, (we will probably be able to do that any time now, there is already plenty of gameplay showing wii u games running pretty good at half speed on emulators) but you bought the game you are emulating from the store, im not sure about what the law says about it but i believe it should be illegal since the company relies on the profit of those consoles to make their games with, and didnt design them for people to be able to just buy the games and ignore the console.

Its also forbidden to post pictures of mickey mouse and company logos on social media (atleast where i live), but that doesnt mean its not ethical

I believe most people (especially OP) knows its illegal but the question is if its ethical

 

In my book - if you bought it it's ethical to use it whatever way you like, as long as you don't violate other people's rights. And please note that I said that i don't find it unethical/ or illegal as long as you have BOTH the console AND the game.

 

The gray area is with the multiplats. I feel that as long as I've paid the developer the price for a game on, say, PS3 that I should be able to play that game on other available sistems (PC, XB1, or gameboy colour...).

 

Also we can argue sematics over here all day, but the bottom line is whatever is illegal should also unethical, BUT what's ethical shouldn't be allowed to become illegal, and that's what basicaly PETA and those other supid american bills are trying to do.

[Paralectic]

44 minutes ago, A/C said:

Not sure trolling or actually serious...

 

 

That's different, just like with physical things, it's not stealing if it's "abandoned".

 

Also IMHO it's not piracy if you use an emulator to emulate, say, NES games as long as you own a working NES and that specific game.

 

Many people fail to grasp the concept of copyright works. There's a whole law category dedicated to works of art and other copyright works, IMHO video games go in the same category. But to dumb it down, it's forbidden to make unauthorized copies of books, video cassettes and such, and in the same way, it's forbidden to rip and make unauthorized copies of software.

I am serious, it's not theft.

 

[A/C]

1 minute ago, Paralectic said:

I am serious, it's not theft.

 

 

Ok, I'm curious, do you consider theft if you borrow a book from the library, say, Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain and make a copy of it?

[noisebomb44]

3 minutes ago, A/C said:

 

In my book - if you bought it it's ethical to use it whatever way you like, as long as you don't violate other people's rights. And please note that I said that i don't find it unethical/ or illegal as long as you have BOTH the console AND the game.

 

The gray area is with the multiplats. I feel that as long as I've paid the developer the price for a game on, say, PS3 that I should be able to play that game on other available sistems (PC, XB1, or gameboy colour...).

 

Also we can argue sematics over here all day, but the bottom line is whatever is illegal should also unethical, BUT what's ethical shouldn't be allowed to become illegal, and that's what basicaly PETA and those other supid american bills are trying to do.

I see, i read it as "you should be allowed to download nes games as long as you own the game"

I think that the time it takes for console software to end up in public domain is way too long, i believe that around 10-15 years after a console is first introduced you should be legally able to download/emulate it for free since its no longer produced and the company who made it is not making any sort of profit off of it anymore, in my mind this also applies to PC games, but i still wouldnt download them for free a lot of times if they are on steam and has a HD version/enhanced version or if i just really like the game.

 

Also im not sure if your third argument is "the bottom line" since ethics is such a relative term, but i get what you mean

[Paralectic]

2 minutes ago, A/C said:

 

Ok, I'm curious, do you consider theft if you borrow a book from the library, say, Tom Sawyer by Mark Twain and make a copy of it?

That's an invalid comparison, books from a library aren't digital.

[BuckGup]

If you can't even buy the game in the first place I guess pirating doesn't do anything as you can't give them money. It is still wrong and stealing though. It also usually has ton of malware in it too

[A/C]

6 minutes ago, Paralectic said:

That's an invalid comparison, books from a library aren't digital.

 

Oh but it is. I find it's basically the same thing, as they both are copyrighted works and don't apply to public domain. But to bring it closer, do you find downloading e-books that you didn't pay for unethical. And what about movies that you didn't buy, nor paid to watch in the cinema? What about the music you can download to listen to whenever and wherever you want, but you didn't pay for it? We know it's illegal, but do YOU find it unethical?

[rhyseyness]

Everyone saying "well they wouldn't get your money anyway" is kidding themselves.

If you can't afford to pay the price for the content/product, why should you get to enjoy the content/use the product?

Just because they wouldn't have gotten your money anyway doesn't make it OK to steal the content.

Just because it's not a lost sale doesn't make it any less stealing.

For example, if someone goes to steal a bag of sweets from a shop.

They had no intention of ever buying the bag of sweets, so does that make it OK to steal them?

I understand that there is a cost associated with a bag of sweets, unlike with digital media, however, the developer is not being paid for you enjoying the content; in the same way the sweet manufacturer would not be being paid for you to enjoy their sweets.

If you can't afford the sweets, you don't buy OR steal them.

If you can't afford a game, you don't buy OR steal it.

No matter how "overpriced" the sweets/game are, it doesn't make it OK to steal them.

[Guest]

I don't think it's "theft", I really don't think you can "steal" digital media at all. It's just a term used because it's something most societies know as a bad thing to do. It's more like cheating, using a service without paying as intended. When you buy a game, you buy the right to play it whenever you want, you don't own it any respect (not the code, not the physical thing). This is why EULA's are used. Breaking a EULA is not necessarily a crime, but if you enter into a contract and willfully break it that can be illegal. Impossible to go into too much detail here and there's no point trying because this is the internet and we're talking about all kinds of different countries with different laws.

 

The OP of course didn't ask if it was legal, he asked if it was ethical. You can only answer this question with an OPINION. I know it's hard for all of you to avoid finding some reason to argue or debate about stuff, but when you're talking about ethics, I'm sorry there is no right or wrong answer. Every person on the planet as the right to set there own moral and ethical standards, all any government or major corporation can do is try and convince you to set them in line with their own. Your actions may be subject to law, but your personal ethics are your own. End of story.

[SLAYR]

14 minutes ago, Paralectic said:

I am serious, it's not theft.

 

It may seem like it isnt "theft" as in taking a physical object, but you are stealing someone's intellectual property (like with patents) and not paying for the use of it.

[noisebomb44]

 

3 minutes ago, rhyseyness said:

If you can't afford the sweets, you don't buy OR steal them.

If you can't afford a game, you don't buy OR steal it.

No matter how "overpriced" the sweets/game are, it doesn't make it OK to steal them.

I believe this is up to everyone for themselves to decide, you only live once and i would personally steal software rather than being bored to death if i couldnt afford it, and if i felt guilt about it i would repay them when my economical situation got better.

[rhyseyness]

2 minutes ago, noisebomb44 said:

 

I believe this is up to everyone for themselves to decide, you only live once and i would personally steal software rather than being bored to death if i couldnt afford it, and if i felt guilt about it i would repay them when my economical situation got better.

So let's say theoretically that video games don't exist.

Would you steal a board game or some other kind of entertainment to save yourself from being bored to death?

Video games are a luxury item (as are board games), so if you can't afford them, sorry, but you don't have any "right" to use them.

If it was food to feed yourself so you don't die, I can understand the "ethical" argument behind stealing a loaf of bread, but that's a basic human right.

Video games are most definitely not a basic human right.

All opinion btw, sorry if I come across as arrogant. I couldn't find a way to word this such that it didn't come across that way.

[Paralectic]

24 minutes ago, A/C said:

 

Oh but it is. I find it's basically the same thing, as they both are copyrighted works and don't apply to public domain. But to bring it closer, do you find downloading e-books that you didn't pay for unethical. And what about movies that you didn't buy, nor paid to watch in the cinema? What about the music you can download to listen to whenever and wherever you want, but you didn't pay for it? We know it's illegal, but do YOU find it unethical?

I don't, and I see my opinion as a fact.

[A/C]

16 minutes ago, noisebomb44 said:

 

I believe this is up to everyone for themselves to decide, you only live once and i would personally steal software rather than being bored to death if i couldnt afford it, and if i felt guilt about it i would repay them when my economical situation got better.

 

So basically what you're saying is you'd rather be a criminal than be bored. I'm sorry but I can't justify that answer as there are many many good games that are free to play.

4 minutes ago, Paralectic said:

I don't, and I see my opinion as a fact.

No problem, we can disagree on this one. Our points of view obviously differ.

[noisebomb44]

2 minutes ago, rhyseyness said:

So let's say theoretically that video games don't exist.

Would you steal a board game or some other kind of entertainment to save yourself from being bored to death?

Video games are a luxury item (as are board games), so if you can't afford them, sorry, but you don't have any "right" to use them.

If it was food to feed yourself so you don't die, I can understand the "ethical" argument behind stealing a loaf of bread, but that's a basic human right.

Video games are most definitely not a basic human right.

All opinion btw, sorry if I come across as arrogant. I couldn't find a way to word this such that it didn't come across that way.

I would probably make my own board games, or resort to another hobby like singing or something free since i wouldnt want to risk getting cought with an economic situation like that.

I know i dont have any rights to use them according to the law, but im not some sort of machine, following every single rule the law gives me, just as im pretty sure you and everyone else has not followed the law at some time in their life.

[noisebomb44]

10 minutes ago, A/C said:

 

So basically what you're saying is you'd rather be a criminal than be bored. I'm sorry but I can't justify that answer as there are many many good games that are free to play.

Im pretty sure everyone is criminals if we look deep enough, but that doesnt make us bad people, just humans, and having fun is one of the most important things to do in life, so yes, i would rather be a criminal than be bored

The same can be said about teachers viewing illegal movies in school or at home with friends, sometimes its worth bending the rules

 

Also i never cracked games when i was low on money, so i actually played F2P games instead of pirating, and i can now say that i regret it

[WkdPaul]

16 hours ago, Rune said:

Understandable, yes. Ethical? No. It is only allowing the problem to get worse by making things "okay" for a while. As a junior developer it would upset me knowing anyone had stolen my work, regardless of the circumstances. Send emails to paypal or other companies saying you have no choice. Get angry about it. Make things change.

Video game dev (in a previous life) here, and I completely understand your point of view, I had the exact same opinion until I went in China (worked on a project there). You have to understand that in North America and Europe, we are really pampered when it comes to things like this, while I was in China my perspective on this got a lot more "grey", it's not all black and white.

 

I don't know about you but I would certainly not try to have the Chinese government change it's opinion on their great firewall (that thing made it VERY hard to buy and play games online). So just saying, it's unethical, but sometimes understandable!

[ThomasD]

The answer to your question depends on what system of ethics you wish to abide by.

 

In my ethics what you are doing is not remotely ethical.  You want something that is not yours and you choose to take it without permission or any form of compensation.  Also, the thing you want is not remotely essential to your existence and provides no benefit beyond self gratifying entertainment. 

 

That there is no viable means of obtaining permission or providing payment does not matter.  If we were talking about bread for a starving man, or shoes for his children and the item was otherwise being unused then you might have justification for your action.  But in this case you do not.

[ccaian]

1 hour ago, Paralectic said:

I don't, and I see my opinion as a fact.

The cost of paying retailers, burning games into CDs and sending them out is not the issue. You really think the 50$ retail on the game is to cover that? In that case yeah you're right, games should be free. But does that make sense to you? Game companies spending millions of dollars and man hours into a game only to distribute it for free? Not to mention maintenance of the game and support.

 

You pay for the right to play the game, not the files. If you somehow gain access to their games without paying for the right then you are most definitely stealing. 

[Paralectic]

Just now, ccaian said:

The cost of paying retailers, burning games into CDs and sending them out is not the issue. You really think the 50$ retail on the game is to cover that? In that case yeah you're right, games should be free. But does that make sense to you? Game companies spending millions of dollars and man hours into a game only to distribute it for free? Not to mention maintenance of the game and support.

 

You pay for the right to play the game, not the files. If you somehow gain access to their games without paying for the right then you are most definitely stealing. 

If you see that as stealing, sure go on. I couldn't care less, it's copying bytes, not stealing something with intrinsic value.

 

[Matt100HP]

Certainly under English Law, piracy, is not theft. Theft is a specific offence as defined in S.1 of the Theft Act 1968, which if you read (honest, it's fairly short and easy to understand with no legal training), you'll realise does not cover piracy. 

 

However, that doesn't make it legally or morally correct. Though I understand why some people, the OP included, do pirate their games for reasons they believe to be "legitimate". 

[ThomasD]

19 minutes ago, Matt100HP said:

Certainly under English Law, piracy, is not theft. Theft is a specific offence as defined in S.1 of the Theft Act 1968, which if you read (honest, it's fairly short and easy to understand with no legal training), you'll realise does not cover piracy. 

 

However, that doesn't make it legally or morally correct. Though I understand why some people, the OP included, do pirate their games for reasons they believe to be "legitimate". 

Does the legal definition of property include things under copyright?

[Matt100HP]

2 minutes ago, ThomasD said:

Does the legal definition of property include things under copyright?

Property is defined in S.4, if I remember correctly. I know it includes "intangible property", so intellectual property is quite possibly covered, unless there is case law from since the introduction of the Theft Act which states otherwise. 

 

However, it's the "permanently deprive" bit where it all falls apart. By illegally downloading copyrighted material, you aren't depriving the owner of it, permanently or otherwise.

 

If you're interested in the English Law regarding copyright etc, give this a read:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/intellectual-property-crime-and-infringement