FIOS install

[Trikein]

I might be switching to Verizon FIOS 50/50 plan that includes 20 basic CATV and HBO. I had several questions the sales rep couldn't answer, and couldn't transfer me to technical support since I didn't have a account.

 

1. How hard is it to get the FIOS technician to enable ethernet on the ONT?

2. If the ethernet is enabled, does that disable the coaxial I will need for CATV?

3. Do I need a box for HBO and does it cost money?

4. 1 DHCP IP? IPv6?

[Atmos]

1. No, you can even do it yourself by opening the ont and plugging in an rj45 cable, then calling up verizon to swap from coax to rj45 for your service. Or, just tell them to install it as rj45, not coax.
2. You need coax for the tv. If you want to keep using the tv, you'll need to use coax.
3. No idea, I don't use their tv service, only internet
4. 1 dhcp from my experience.

Rj45 doesn't support media over the line, so the tv has to run from coax. I'm fairly sure since you are using the tv plan, you won't be able to use rj45 at all. What you can do is simply use their included actiontek router w/ integrated moca bridge as a transparency and use your own router to control the network.

[pagani123]

its not hard for a fios technician to enable the Ethernet you just have to push them hard and be consistent about it. As for the other things with only the Ethernet you will only be able to get the "free" mainstream tv channels no hd or anything like that and you wont be able to get hbo. i use them for tv and internet and there are ways of using your own router if you wanted to but they are frustrating and you would still have to pay for their router if you wanted to get tv and internet. (you basically use that router just for the cable boxes then wire up your own router to that one. I have never bothered with is as the quantum router is pretty good for an apartment )

[Trikein]

2 minutes ago, Atmos said:

Rj45 doesn't support media over the line, so the tv has to run from coax. I'm fairly sure since you are using the tv plan, you won't be able to use rj45 at all. What you can do is simply use their included actiontek router w/ integrated moca bridge as a transparency and use your own router to control the network.

I understand TV needs to come from coax, my question is can RJ45(internet) and coaxial(TV) be used at the same time? Using my own router is a deal breaker for me. Their Actioncrap gateways stink IMO. I like to control my own firmware thank you.

 

Also getting RJ45 activated isn't so easy. I asked the Sale rep 3 times and she didn't even know what a ONT is. Will the technician be any better or can I suspect a contractor?  

[Atmos]

Just now, Trikein said:

I understand TV needs to come from coax, my question is can RJ45(internet) and coaxial(TV) be used at the same time? Using my own router is a deal breaker for me. Their Actioncrap gateways stink IMO. I like to control my own firmware thank you.

 

Also getting RJ45 activated isn't so easy. I asked the Sale rep 3 times and she didn't even know what a ONT is. Will the technician be any better or can I suspect a contractor?  

The sales reps can be very clueless, but once the ont is installed if the technician installing it doesn't swap it over then you can call up verizon and talk to a tech there to have to swapped over.

 

And from what I understand, I don't think you can have both rj45 and coax active at the same time, which is why I mentioned using coax, and having the default actiontek router/moca bridge as a transparent resource for the tv and just using your own router to control the network.

[Trikein]

9 minutes ago, Maybach123 said:

As for the other things with only the Ethernet you will only be able to get the "free" mainstream tv channels no hd or anything like that and you wont be able to get hbo. i use them for tv and internet and there are ways of using your own router if you wanted to but they are frustrating and you would still have to pay for their router if you wanted to get tv and internet. (you basically use that router just for the cable boxes then wire up your own router to that one. I have never bothered with is as the quantum router is pretty good for an apartment )

The deal comes with HBO. See link in OP. I could just stream if HBO Go and their Verizon cable app. but having CATV for the kitchen TV would be nice. My router is IPTV compatible (Asus RT-N66U) and even if I can't watch HBO on TV, the ONT should be able to broadcast basic NTSC/QAM. My question is can it TECHNICALLY broadcast internet other RJ45 while broadcasting CATV over coaxial?

[Donut417]

14 minutes ago, Trikein said:

The deal comes with HBO. See link in OP. I could just stream if HBO Go and their Verizon cable app. but having CATV for the kitchen TV would be nice. My router is IPTV compatible (Asus RT-N66U) and even if I can't watch HBO on TV, the ONT should be able to broadcast basic NTSC/QAM. My question is can it TECHNICALLY broadcast internet other RJ45 while broadcasting CATV over coaxial?

I dont have FIOS. However from stuff I have read on DSLreports.com you have to pick either or, you cant use both. If you have TV then you have to use Coax. 

[KuJoe]

57 minutes ago, Trikein said:

I might be switching to Verizon FIOS 50/50 plan that includes 20 basic CATV and HBO. I had several questions the sales rep couldn't answer, and couldn't transfer me to technical support since I didn't have a account.

 

1. How hard is it to get the FIOS technician to enable ethernet on the ONT?

2. If the ethernet is enabled, does that disable the coaxial I will need for CATV?

3. Do I need a box for HBO and does it cost money?

4. 1 DHCP IP? IPv6?

1) When the tech arrives, request an RJ-45 connection. My tech said they normally charge a $45 fee but since the ONT was already installed years ago when I first lived at the house, and because I was running the copper to the other side of the wall, he didn't charge me and I was good to go. Plugged it into my Mikrotik router and I was up and running before he finished getting the phone line hooked up. He also had to call up and have them remove my router rental fee (I have the same router sitting on my desk that I got for $40 on eBay just in case they wouldn't let me use my own router). Oh and he didn't terminate the cable to an RJ-45 connector, he had this weird adapter that he punched down the cable and a short copy cable came out of it with an RJ-45 connection at the end, once he left I terminated it myself.

 

2) I don't have a coax cable so I can't answer this.

 

3) No TV here so can't comment on this either.

 

4) DHCP IPv4, no IPv6.

[Trikein]

Well I canceled the FIOS install. If I can't watch CATV while using RJ45 then the Internet + cable is pointless. I called some friends at Cox and got 50/10 for 48$ for 12 months no contract. So now I don't have to pay the 90$ install fee along with taxes. Neveremind going through the pain of Verizon support. Sales teams was nice, but technical chat was a shocky monkey. 

[Donut417]

I would have done Internet only and OTA TV myself. I couldn't pass up a fiber line. 

[Trikein]

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

I would have done Internet only and OTA TV myself. I couldn't pass up a fiber line. 

My throughput and latency is excellent as of right now and I don't need the extra upload. The final factor was their support. Their chat and phone people don't know anything unless it's written on a paper in front of them. They must outsource all their support. I wouldn't mind bad support if service was already installed, but I new installs come with specific questions. Besides, it's fiber do my street. Think that last 50 feet really matter?

[brwainer]

I think you've misunderstood how the Verizon Fios cable works. They do not carry NTSC, QAM, or any other normal TV signals on the Coax from the ONT - they purely use MoCA on the coax, and any TVs you want to connect need one of their cable boxes.

 

The router they give you has both a Coax WAN and Coax LAN (both MoCA). The WAN connection to the ONT can be ethernet or coax. Either way, the connection to the cable boxes is via the router's LAN coax. The cable boxes never connect directly to the ONT's coax.

 

edit: there are diagrams and setup instructions on 3rd party websites for how to use the Gateway router for TVs as well as using your own router for internet.

[Mikensan]

I had Fios TV and internet. However I still needed to have their Actioncrap router because the boxes pulled guide data over the internet. **They ran utp cable terminated with RJ45 for me and my TV etc.. worked fine.

[Trikein]

2 hours ago, brwainer said:

I think you've misunderstood how the Verizon Fios cable works. They do not carry NTSC, QAM, or any other normal TV signals on the Coax from the ONT - they purely use MoCA on the coax, and any TVs you want to connect need one of their cable boxes.

You are right, I was misunderstanding. Verizon's documentation is not clear on the fact. Was there once a time where you didn't need a box for CATV? Here is a report showing it once did, or should. Also isn't there certian FCC rulings about being allowed to use a cablecard instead of a provider provided box? How could that be done if it's all MoCA? Either way, if that is true, it's a deal breaker and I will be canceling my install tomorrow. 

 

If FIOS was smart,  they would let the ONT output ethernet and coaxial at the same time. Have the coaxial output have basic channels via QAM and encrypt premium channels. The FCC is pushing hard now for consumers to be able to purchase their own boxes. Atleast Cox, my current provider, offers low price mini boxes for CATV. FIOS may have done fiber first, but IMO Google is doing it better. Also, my ISP is going to be launching 1Gigabit over both fiber and DOCSIS 3.1. Sorry for the rant, just convincing myself I made the right choice. Thanks for everyone's input. 

 

 

[brwainer]

1 hour ago, Trikein said:

-snip- see quotes below

"Was there once a time where you didn't need a box for CATV?" - on Fios? no. in general? yes, in fact the company I work for, which does Internet and Cable in student apartment complexes, broadcasts using NTSC and ClearQAM - neither of which require a converter box (except to get ClearQAM on a TV that doesn't support it, but we just have people buy them on their own if their TV isn't compatible - we recommend a particular $40 converter box readily available on Amazon and other retailers)

 

"Also isn't there certian FCC rulings about being allowed to use a cablecard instead of a provider provided box?" - those regulations only apply to traditional cable companies, the way Verizon set up their service bypasses those regulations.

 

"If FIOS was smart,  they would let the ONT output ethernet and coaxial at the same time. Have the coaxial output have basic channels via QAM and encrypt premium channels." - this would make them a traditional cable company and subject to many more regulations. they are actually smart to have designed it the way they did - much less regulations they have to obey. And the ONT can do ethernet and coaxial at the same time if you have a business plan with 5 or more static IP addresses - which means the hardware itself is capable of it - but either way, their coaxial output is purely MoCA. The ONTs don't support anything else. What you are missing is that the cable boxes connected by MoCA are using IPTV - the ONT can't distinguish between TV traffic and your network traffic - that distinction is made elsewhere, wherever they track and cap you internet traffic (TV traffic does not count towards your speed cap)

 

" IMO Google is doing it better" - The Google Fiber contract specifies that they can monitor and track all of your data for the purpose of ad targetting. So even though they can't see your SSL protected traffic, they can still track the fact that you, for example, are communicating with a lot of UK websites and give you british-targeted ads. Your Google Fiber account gets tied to whatever Google account you are signed in with when you order the service. This is how/why they offer a free tier as well - they are making the end user the product. So your opinion may be that they are doing fiber better, my opinion is that I want none of that nonsense.

 

Edit: another reason why Fios TV can't do QAM output - traditional TV sends all channels all the time, except On Demand. IPTV (including most On Demand products) only send you the channel that your cable box is requesting at the time you are watching it - about 6MHz of bandwidth. A full delivery of all channels available takes at least 500MHz of Bandwidth - and a coax cable only has 860MHz max. Even fiber only has the equivalent of about 1000MHz. By using on demand technologies, the actual usage of IP traffic on the network is greatly reduced.

 

Edit2: by "fiber only has the equivalent of about 1000MHz" I am assuming 1Gb fiber electronics at each node

[Trikein]

So basically they short change their customers to avoid being labeled a "cable company" so they don't have to follow the same rules. #PunkVerizon. I won't respond to everything you said, because a lot of it was stuff I already knew and I am in a rush. Not meaning to be rude. I worked for a ISP for 7 years so I know how normal cable companies works but Verizon, by their own doing, is not one.  

 

As for google watching my traffic, go ahead. If they want to see pron and lolcats, knock yourself out.  Instead I am just going to stay with Cox. I am in touch with the NE Data Product manager and I might be beta testing DOCSIS 3.1. Can't wait!

[brwainer]

6 minutes ago, Trikein said:

So basically they short change their customers to avoid being labeled a "cable company" so they don't have to follow the same rules. #PunkVerizon. I won't respond to everything you said, because a lot of it was stuff I already knew and I am in a rush. Not meaning to be rude. I worked for a ISP for 7 years so I know how normal cable companies works but Verizon, by their own doing, is not one.  

 

As for google watching my traffic, go ahead. If they want to see pron and lolcats, knock yourself out.  Instead I am just going to stay with Cox. I am in touch with the NE Data Product manager and I might be beta testing DOCSIS 3.1. Can't wait!

np, I'm not offended. But as a Fios user I can't say I feel shortchanged. As I said before, there is ways to use your own router while still having the Actiontec basically function as a MoCA adaptor - you just put the actiontec in the DMZ of your personal router. The inability to use CableCard doesn't bother me, since I wouldn't want to use it anyway, but I can see that being a dealbreaker for some. The requirement to have a cable box at each TV isn't that different from the cable companies, with the exception that you can't get *any* channels without on. Pretty sure our contract included one cable box free, and we only use one TV. You also always have the option of getting Internet from Verizon and TV from your local cable company - I'd say it's worth it just to get the low latency of fiber.

 

Edit: congrats on the possible beta trial for DOCSIS 3.1 though!

[Trikein]

1 minute ago, brwainer said:

I'd say it's worth it just to get the low latency of fiber.

I actually had both FIOS and Cox when I lived up state in a apartment. FIOS was active for about 2 weeks after moving in so I had about a week period to compare. FIOS blew Cox out of the water via HTTP throughput, but my newsgroup speed seemed to be throttled on FIOS and the latency was about the same. Most cable ISP use fiber nodes, so saying "fiber gets you lower latency" the only physical difference is the last 50-100 feet from CPE to node. Yes, it is better, but in my experiences, it's nothing extraordinary,. 

[Razor512]

8 hours ago, Trikein said:

I might be switching to Verizon FIOS 50/50 plan that includes 20 basic CATV and HBO. I had several questions the sales rep couldn't answer, and couldn't transfer me to technical support since I didn't have a account.

 

1. How hard is it to get the FIOS technician to enable ethernet on the ONT?

2. If the ethernet is enabled, does that disable the coaxial I will need for CATV?

3. Do I need a box for HBO and does it cost money?

4. 1 DHCP IP? IPv6?

 

1: Just call their tech support and ask them to switch it. When i got the service originally, I ran my own Ethernet cable, and then called them to switch it to Ethernet. If you do not want to run your own Ethernet, then during the initial install, ask the installer to run Ethernet, if you do not ask, they will just use coax since it is less work for them.

 

2: Coax and Ethernet will work at the same time. The STBs will use the coax for TV, and MoCA for guide data and on demand content. (If you want to use your own router, then change the IP on the fios router, and then disable the DHCP server. You can then do a LAN to LAN connection so that the STBs can still get their guide data and on demand content.

 

3. HBO and other premium channels are generally not included on the basic packages, and are pretty overpriced as addons, but if you need to use them, you can add it, and if needed, and then use the HBO go service if you do not want a STB from them.

 

4: The  service uses DHCP to assign a WAN IP to you. the ONT. When changing routers, you must either use the WAN MAC address of the old router, or release the DHCP lease before disconnecting the old router. Verizon fios uses IPv4, and for IPv6 support, they use a 6to4 tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6to4

 

 

[Trikein]

59 minutes ago, Razor512 said:

 

1: Just call their tech support and ask them to switch it. When i got the service originally, I ran my own Ethernet cable, and then called them to switch it to Ethernet. If you do not want to run your own Ethernet, then during the initial install, ask the installer to run Ethernet, if you do not ask, they will just use coax since it is less work for them.

 

2: Coax and Ethernet will work at the same time. The STBs will use the coax for TV, and MoCA for guide data and on demand content. (If you want to use your own router, then change the IP on the fios router, and then disable the DHCP server. You can then do a LAN to LAN connection so that the STBs can still get their guide data and on demand content.

 

3. HBO and other premium channels are generally not included on the basic packages, and are pretty overpriced as addons, but if you need to use them, you can add it, and if needed, and then use the HBO go service if you do not want a STB from them.

 

4: The  service uses DHCP to assign a WAN IP to you. the ONT. When changing routers, you must either use the WAN MAC address of the old router, or release the DHCP lease before disconnecting the old router. Verizon fios uses IPv4, and for IPv6 support, they use a 6to4 tunnel https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/6to4

 

 

1. I am/was not too worried about them switching it to ethernet at the install, it was the fact I couldn't get ethernet and cable without a box.

 

2.I don't want to use their router. Thats the whole point of me getting ethernet from ONT.Disabling the DHCP server doesn't disable NAT, and there I was informed there is no way to bridge the router and still get cable.

 

3. I didn't mind not getting HBO on TV without a box. The only reason I mentioned it is because it came free with the promo. If they were able to just give me 50/50 via ethernet and OTA rebroadcasts over coaxial, I would have been a happy boy. I now understand why they went IPTV instead of QAM, but they should then support 3rd party IPTV devices. This is something the FCC is also trying to require, but Verizon seems immune to FCC rulings.

 

4. Does the ONT actually get assigned a IP? I thought it was a bridge? Thank you for the IPv6 info. I will look into that if I change my mind about FIOS. Right now I am going with Cox and then use OTA for my small kitchen TV. I have a large but very old analog TV antenna on my roof. Could I take that down and use the post for a new digital antenna? Or is a indoor good enough? Or should I make new thread for that?

[brwainer]

1 hour ago, Trikein said:

1. I am/was not too worried about them switching it to ethernet at the install, it was the fact I couldn't get ethernet and cable without a box.

 

2.I don't want to use their router. Thats the whole point of me getting ethernet from ONT.Disabling the DHCP server doesn't disable NAT, and there I was informed there is no way to bridge the router and still get cable.

 

3. I didn't mind not getting HBO on TV without a box. The only reason I mentioned it is because it came free with the promo. If they were able to just give me 50/50 via ethernet and OTA rebroadcasts over coaxial, I would have been a happy boy. I now understand why they went IPTV instead of QAM, but they should then support 3rd party IPTV devices. This is something the FCC is also trying to require, but Verizon seems immune to FCC rulings.

 

4. Does the ONT actually get assigned a IP? I thought it was a bridge? Thank you for the IPv6 info. I will look into that if I change my mind about FIOS. Right now I am going with Cox and then use OTA for my small kitchen TV. I have a large but very old analog TV antenna on my roof. Could I take that down and use the post for a new digital antenna? Or is a indoor good enough? Or should I make new thread for that?

Idk if the ONT gets an IP, I haven't been able to detect one on mine, but it has a MAC address that the forwarding table on my router picked up.

[Trikein]

If it was just me, and I could afford it, I would get both. FIOS for my game and forum server and Cox for general browsing and media sharing. I am curious just how FTTP works. But right now doing consumer IT work on the side, so money is tight. Have to go with what is cheaper. If my business picks up maybe I will update this thread. But until then, cheers. 

[Razor512]

The ONT does not get an IP, it is effectively transparent to the network.

 

You can use Ethernet and cable at the same time. That is what I am doing with the service right now. When you switch to Ethernet, the coax still functions for TVs and the set top boxes.

 

The LAN to LAN setup with the verizon router allows you to run it behind your own router (this is only needed if you are using a verizon STB, if not then you can just completely get rid of their router).

 

All the Ethernet function does is determine which interface it routes your WAN traffic over. Other than that, coax is always on, but the video stream does not transmit on demand information. that is done via IPTV, regular TV viewing is always done over coax, regardless of the configuration.

 

 

 

My network setup is  ONT -----Ethernet-----> Netgear R7500v2 > ----Ethernet LAN to LAN---> Crappy verizon router (used for MoCA to Ethernet bridge) > ---- MoCA>  DVR and STB boxes.

 

The aspects around the crappy verizon router is simply there because the STB and DVR use MoCA in order to download their guide data and stream on demand content. without the verizon router acting as a bridge, I will get all of my channels including the premium ones, but I will not have access to on demand, and the verizon specific guide will not function. Guides from HTPCs and 2rd party STBs will still function.

 

Even when set to coax, the Ethernet port is always active, it just doesn't pass any IP traffic. When you you request a switch to Ethernet, literally all they do is disable the MoCA function on the ONT, and it automatically begins using the Ethernet port for IP traffic.

 

The switch happens within a few seconds, and you will just see the MoCA light turn off. MoCA services are still provided by the fios router. if needed, you can replace it with a basic MoCA to Ethernet bridge device, but why spend $70 on one when you can just use the verizon router in a LAN to LAN config? (assuming you are not in a market where they charge a rental fee for their crap).

 

[Trikein]

10 hours ago, brwainer said:

but either way, their coaxial output is purely MoCA. The ONTs don't support anything else. What you are missing is that the cable boxes connected by MoCA are using IPTV - the ONT can't distinguish between TV traffic and your network traffic - that distinction is made elsewhere, wherever they track and cap you internet traffic (TV traffic does not count towards your speed cap)

 

Edit: another reason why Fios TV can't do QAM output - traditional TV sends all channels all the time, except On Demand. IPTV (including most On Demand products) only send you the channel that your cable box is requesting at the time you are watching it - about 6MHz of bandwidth. A full delivery of all channels available takes at least 500MHz of Bandwidth - and a coax cable only has 860MHz max. Even fiber only has the equivalent of about 1000MHz. By using on demand technologies, the actual usage of IP traffic on the network is greatly reduced.

 

1 hour ago, Razor512 said:

You can use Ethernet and cable at the same time. That is what I am doing with the service right now. When you switch to Ethernet, the coax still functions for TVs and the set top boxes.

I am don't mean to be confrontational, but these two statements seem to contradict. If the coaxial output of the ONT outputs MoCA only to broadcast IPTV, how could a TV get cable without a set top box? @brwainer in regards to IPTV, QAM uses switched digital video(SDV) to accomplish conserving bandwidth and uses a tuner adapter to send the signal upstream to request that channel. If FIOS doesn't use this for cable, how can a cable card tune to those channels?

 

2 hours ago, Razor512 said:

Other than that, coax is always on, but the video stream does not transmit on demand information. that is done via IPTV, regular TV viewing is always done over coax, regardless of the configuration.

But how is it broadcast over the coax?

 

2 hours ago, Razor512 said:

The aspects around the crappy verizon router is simply there because the STB and DVR use MoCA in order to download their guide data and stream on demand content. without the verizon router acting as a bridge, I will get all of my channels including the premium ones, but I will not have access to on demand, and the verizon specific guide will not function. Guides from HTPCs and 2rd party STBs will still function.

I am confused. First statement you said EOD is done by IPTV then next statement you said they use MoCA to stream EOD. Is MoCA the data link and IPTV the transmit? The reason I ask is because my router (Asus RT-N66U) has IPTV support. See emulator here for example. Could it be used for anything? Or does the fact I don't need HBO and don't want a box negate that need?

2 hours ago, Razor512 said:

if needed, you can replace it with a basic MoCA to Ethernet bridge device, but why spend $70 on one when you can just use the verizon router in a LAN to LAN config? (assuming you are not in a market where they charge a rental fee for their crap).

 

Why use a MoCA adapter in bridge mode to transport IPTV from DVR and STB to non Actiontec router when I can just use ethernet? ONT > RT-N66U If the Actiontec is in bride mode, how is it routing the IPTV traffic? For a provider that tries hard to not be consider a cable provider they sure do like to use a lot of cable in their setup. 

[brwainer]

I can't argue with the evidence of a working install, but regarding this:

 

Quote

 in regards to IPTV, QAM uses switched digital video(SDV) to accomplish conserving bandwidth and uses a tuner adapter to send the signal upstream to request that channel. If FIOS doesn't use this for cable, how can a cable card tune to those channels?

Maybe there is some sort of switching and requesting in the QAM that traditional cable companies use, but in the ClearQAM systems we run, over 75 of them with a variety of headend types, every carrier is active at all times, and the virtual channels (2-1,2-2, etc) are always present and always broadcasting on a specified carrier channel. We have the gamut of 480 to 1080. We also have, at most of our properties, Dish network satellite transponders transcoded onto QAM carriers, so that we can offer full Dish services to any resident who wants to get a Dish receiver. This allows us to have only one dish per property, at the expense of each receiver having a Q-Box or MQ2 module to understand the QAM transcoded signals. These QAM carriers are also active 24/7. So in our systems, we always have a constant amount of bandwidth being used. A site with 60-80 amenity channels (NTSC and/or ClearQAM) as well as access to the full Dish programming easily uses all 860MHz that we can reliably broadcast across a property, with no room to spare for DOCSIS communications (we use ethernet for resident internet). So maybe the other types of QAM can do everything on demand, but in my part of the industry that doesn't happen. We can't even provide the normal Dish on demand products to our residents due to technical limitations, we can only offer pay-per-view, which is always broadcast to every receiver in the country but requires the decryption key to view.