Mechanical Keyboard Club!

[Volbet]

18 hours ago, Jorgemeister said:

6 months in a group buy sounds way too long for me, I try to get on the short ones, you mentioned QK, their are often 2 months max, my experience with them is less than that. 

 

And absolutely agreed on Keychron, it's hard not to be tempted by their lineup, availability and ease of everything really, I think the keyboard community is growing thanks to companies like keychron enticing new people into mechanical keyboards. 

Yeah, six months is long wait, but I really wanted a Machina Orbit, so it was either missing out or waiting until the end of the fourth quarter of 2023. So waiting it was. 

But manufactures like Qwertykeys and Meletrix usually deliver their group buys within a couple of moths, so I agree that those are usually a really good value. 

 

6 hours ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

In other words: anyone know a good source for affordable switches in EU? Or other great linear switches that are not breaking the bank?

Finding switches in the EU can be a bit of a challenge. Usually you'll have to shop around. Different stores will price different switches cheaper than other. Usually, I tend to go with either KeyGem, Candykeys, Maxgaming, Coffeekeys and Keebcats. Although, I have shopped at other vendors when needed. 

 

For a linear switch, I've recently been enjoying the Wuque Studio Morandi switch. A longpole linear switch that sell for around 35-45 Eurocent a switch. 

The cheapest I've found them currently was on Coffeekeys for 39 Eurocent a switch excluding shipping. 

 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

46 minutes ago, Volbet said:

Usually, I tend to go with either KeyGem, Candykeys, Maxgaming, Coffeekeys and Keebcats. Although, I have shopped at other vendors when needed. 

 

For a linear switch, I've recently been enjoying the Wuque Studio Morandi switch. A longpole linear switch that sell for around 35-45 Eurocent a switch. 

The cheapest I've found them currently was on Coffeekeys for 39 Eurocent a switch excluding shipping. 

Thank you for the suggestion, I will have a look around.

Unfortunately, not only shipping appears to be added but also VAT, though the latter seems to be the case everywhere now. Not sure if this is a new thing in the underlying shopify thing everyone nowadays uses, or if some taxation stuff changed again and nobody told me about it.

 

 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

23 hours ago, Volbet said:

Finding switches in the EU can be a bit of a challenge. Usually you'll have to shop around. Different stores will price different switches cheaper than other. Usually, I tend to go with either KeyGem, Candykeys, Maxgaming, Coffeekeys and Keebcats. Although, I have shopped at other vendors when needed. 

FYI, I found that Caseking is now apparently selling some switches, primarily Akko, Glorious Lynx and Panda, as well as Ducky branded packs of Gateron G Pro switches.

[morytox]

Hi Folks,

currently i am looking for a new keyboard. I used the Cherry MX Keyboard with brown switches for a while, switched to the Logitech G915 due to wireless and connectivity to 2 Systems. (Wifi/Bluetooth with a press of a button). Now some keys are quite worn down and i had hands on a Steelseries Apex Pro, which felt quite good and sparked again the Interest in replacing my G915. I do not fancy the typing feel anymore as well.

 

My only conditions are that there is a wireless connectivity which does support 2 Systems and i like a 100% layout (so with numpad, use calcs quite often)

I stumbled across the Keychron Q6 Pro, which sounds quite promising. Are there any other high quality keyboards with wireless functionality to have a look on, or am i just in the right ballpark? As far as i see, i could switch out/mod here for my liking as time goes on, so could probably be the last keyboard i'll buy. 
Just need som feedback if i am the right path down or if there is a better one/a better product to be bought.
 

Best Felix

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

3 hours ago, morytox said:

I stumbled across the Keychron Q6 Pro, which sounds quite promising. Are there any other high quality keyboards with wireless functionality to have a look on, or am i just in the right ballpark? As far as i see, i could switch out/mod here for my liking as time goes on, so could probably be the last keyboard i'll buy. 

I got a Q6 non-Pro currently, pretty happy with it and very mod friendly. Some say it needs it though, since the keyboard is pretty 'rough' around the edges without aftermarket/home-built modifications. Especially the first iterations of the Q series were very pingy, in that the metal sounds of the case were barely dampened. My Q6 already has some improvements ("double gasket") and I like it, though by now mine has a different plate and foam kit.

Pretty sure the Pro addressed some of those concerns though, with the extra foam layer and the 'double gasket' mounting (which is more akin to the force-break mod). Plus those boards are common enough that mods (extra plates and foam kits) actually exist.

 

Other commonly recommended brands are Nuphy, Monsgeek and Akko:

https://nuphy.com/products/air96-wireless-mechanical-keyboard

https://www.monsgeek.com/product/mg108w-kit/

 

Another nice one is the Cidoo V87, which even though is TKL has the option to combine with the V21 numberpad. Not cheap to buy two devices and I don't know how the wireless setup will work, but I got the V21 for a relative and they are loving it (so much that I might have to order the V87 for Christmas now...).

https://epomaker.com/products/cidoo-v87

https://epomaker.com/products/cidoo-v21

 

There are also great youtube creators in the keyboard space, which will give you a nice overview of what is out there. Examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8SF6Vl9sys

 

[morytox]

Dang, this NuPhy air looks stunning. All features are awesome... but i'm from Germany >.< cannot cope without ä ö ü as button >.< although the English layout looks way better for coding.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

23 minutes ago, morytox said:

Dang, this NuPhy air looks stunning. All features are awesome... but i'm from Germany >.< cannot cope without ä ö ü as button >.< although the English layout looks way better for coding.

Yeah, but honestly it is much harder to find good customs with ISO and full-size. There is two things you can do: Take and ANSI layout but get a keycap set that includes the Umlaute as well. Some have them anyway, others offer them as extras. Like one of these here:

https://keygem.com/products/pbtfans™-doubleshot-wob?variant=43612005368076

https://keygem.com/products/pbtfans™-dolch-pre-order

 

Those are pretty expensive though, so it might be cheaper to get two cheap sets (ANSI+ISO-DE) from e.g amazon or some other place and combine them. As long as they are the same profile they should match. Emphasis on should, as I bought SA caps from amazon once and they had a very different profile than expensive SA caps I already owned. So your mileage may vary here.

 

From my experience using US ANSI over ISO DE for about 5 years now, the layout has its benefits and is much nicer for coding and most typing in general. For the öüä I just have a keyboard shortcut set for the second language layer in windows, works well enough once you memorize where those buttons are. Helps that I work in an international company, so all written communication is in English anyway.

[morytox]

Well thats what i also thought about. But in contrast to you i work in probably one of the most germans of it companies . So lots of german written, probably would be a hassle to switch out umlaute. But i‘ll think over it. 
 

one more question: keychron uses keycaps that look a bit more roundish. (Mostly) all aftermarked keycaps have more of the sdandard square look to it. What are the different types, and what keyword to look for to find one over the other? 
 

in the end: keychron q6 pro still seems to be no bad option and is further moddable as hipyo shows. Looks like a good starting point after mass marked stuff. 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

8 hours ago, morytox said:

one more question: keychron uses keycaps that look a bit more roundish. (Mostly) all aftermarked keycaps have more of the sdandard square look to it. What are the different types, and what keyword to look for to find one over the other? 

Keycaps have three 'parameters' so to speak:

• stem compatibility, that is how they attach to the switches: Most use the cross stem found on cherry compatible switches. Even if the switches have an extra box etc. around the cross stem, they should be cherry compatible. Only commonly used ones not compatible are the ones from certain gaming brands (e.g. some Logitech boards), low profile boards, and non mechanical keyboards or boards that use non-cherry style switches (Topre, Alps).
• "Profile". That is the shape of the keycaps from the sides and top, i.e. more square with some angled and mostly flat surface, or heavily sculpted like SA or MT3. The most common one's are OEM, SA, and Cherry. Yes, cherry also has a profile. There are quite a lot of different profiles by now, and while technically interchangeable, they won't fit well with each other: https://www.daskeyboard.com/blog/types-of-keycap-profiles/
• "layout": basically which general shape the keycaps have when viewing the whole keyboard from the top. Most known are ANSI and ISO, but there are small variations on that which typically don't get their own name. For example some gaming board vendors change the width of the modifier keys (measured in "u", units of regular key width) to fit in modifier keys or RGB/macro buttons. This is the reason most keycap sets come with a ton of modifier keys and different space bar lengths etc.

[4bettingrags]

I'm using a run-of-the-mill vortex pok3r (TKL) that sounds like absolute trash atm. Currently waiting to hear back from Keycult on the prospect of a commission. It's been two years... so yeah. No shortage of people forking over ludicrous amounts of money for something that's 1/1.

[HoldSquat]

Got lucky and snagged this Adelie for cheap on eBay with FR4 and Brass plates and two PCBs. One PCB is using Gazzew UT4 Bobas and the other is using TKC Kiwis. Photo is with Novelkeys PBT Taro but tossed my Ramenstop keycaps on it now.

[morytox]

@GarlicDeliverySystem many thanks for the recommendations! I ordered one now. Wasn‘t an easy decision, since my preference changed so often during research . I think i really do not line 100% layout at all anymore . 96% or the compacted 75% are now a new favorite.

 

i decided to go with an ANSI layout. The Epomaker v75 pro, with the addon option of v21 in the future. It was cheaper than the keychron, easier to order (amazon, without horrendous shipping, import and tax additions) and well, better quality wise? Might be a slim difference. And i figured, if i totally do not get along with ansi, i probably can sell it without much of a priceloss. My other favorite was the nuphy halo 96. but was more plastics on the case side and no knob. But the layout looked great as well..
 

i also ordered a crytox lubing kit. Should set me up. Any recommendations i could try alongside? (Switches, other stabs, or specific mods?) 

 

looking forward  

 

my initial thought was „probably the last keyboard i‘ll ever need“, but i guess my journey just begun… 

[morytox]

One more thing, just correct me if i learned wrong:

 

regarding keycaps materials:

ABS: mass makrked cheaper plastics, fat will result in a sheen on top of keycaps

 

PBT: more solid plastics, rugher surface, no fingermarks/sheen on top

 

Doubleshot: two colors of plastics injected to form cap. (From coloured granules) 

 

Dye-sublimation: pigments added to raw plastics(?) Better color and preferrable over double shot? 
 

how do those variants impact the sound? 
thocky means lower pitched clack sound right? (I know mostly combination of switch, dampening and keycaps, but what impact do they have?)
 

Did i get it right? 

[4bettingrags]

13 hours ago, HoldSquat said:

Got lucky and snagged this Adelie for cheap on eBay with FR4 and Brass plates and two PCBs. One PCB is using Gazzew UT4 Bobas and the other is using TKC Kiwis. Photo is with Novelkeys PBT Taro but tossed my Ramenstop keycaps on it now.

The light purple is a nice touch. PBT and GMK keycaps for life

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

@morytox Great to hear you found something you like!

 

In regards to where to go from here I would say: stay a while and listen. See what you like about the board, what you find satisfying or annoying etc. This will take a while, unless there is something that immediately irks you, things don't come to your attention unless you are using them for quite a while.

 

The other thing is that there are many things out there which people in the hobby describe with very strong words or as vastly better/worse than other stuff. But this is, as with many hobbies etc., all relative. If you just came form a membrane board, almost all linear switches will feel the same. Same with after market stabilizers, hand-lubing etc.

 

The one thing though that can really make a difference is lubing stabilizers to get rid of any rattle they might have. Chances are quite good your board (Cidoo V75 pro, right?) already has pretty good stabs already though.

 

What you can try after a while is different switches. They are bit more expensive to get in EU due to shipping/taxes, but there are shops etc. out there. Keychron has pretty good prices for them, but the shipping times and even rates can be harsh at times. I don't know which type of switch you went with, but some interesting ones to try imho are:

• Gateron G Pro 2.0/3.0 yellow, they have a stiffer spring than the typical reds. If you find yourself mistyping a lot or have the feeling the switches are too easy to press
• Kailh box white v2: clicky switches with a different mechanism compared to cherry blues. Some prefer that over blues, and they have a click on both press and release.
• Gateron Kangaroo: these are a quite bit more expensive already, but they follow the current trend of tactiles that have the tactile point at the very beginning of travel. Makes them feel more like a hair trigger compared to browns. Lots of other switches have this as well now, but I would guess these are the most affordable compared to Pandas or Gazzew U4T.

In general with switches: stay away from the pricey and fancy stuff, at least at first. You spend a lot of money here for stuff you end up not using/linking, while cheaper versions with similar characteristics exist. So instead of buying 'the best linear switches OMG!!1" for a lot of money, buy regular Gateron G Pro switches and see how you like them. Once you have something you really like, you can look for the fancy version of it.

 

For the keycap material, you are right about the rough categories. I would add that the question of ABS vs PBT is more nuanced though: vastly different grades of ABS exist with different properties and wear resistance. So you can get actually great ABS keycaps that last long and don't shine that much, at least not that easily.

 

Dye-sublimation works roughly by printing a dye on the form keycap, then using heat to sublimate (turn a solid directly into a gas) the dye molecules. This allows them to diffuse into the plastic, making them much more robust than simply printed on dye. It is also much cheaper, because you can reuse molds for different letters/designs instead of having to make molds for all of the individually like in double-shot processes.

 

There are downsides to this though:

• you need a lot of heat, so PBT has to be used for its higher melting point. PBT is more expensive on average than ABS
• Only darker colors than the base can be printed, so for light legends on dark background you have to print a lot of area.
• The diffusion process means they are often fuzzy or inconsistent when compared to double-shot

However, I have seen cheap double shot keycaps that have their own issues, like inconsistent molds or clear issues with the second injection, overfill/underfill etc.

 

How these affect sound is difficult to generalize, as the sound created by a keyboard is the product of all the parts involved.

In my experience, the sound alteration from the keycaps is more down to their mass (thick vs thin material) and shape. SA or MT3 can sound deeper and 'thocky' than cherry profile caps that sound 'clacky'. But I find it hard to predict and even sound tests are problematic, since so many things can alter the sound in a recording.

 

Sound and sound consistency is also one of the main selling points of more expensive keyboards imho: you can mod a cheap tray mount into sound great, yes. But I found that then every row sounds different, and even in a row the sound varies a lot depending on distance from a mounting stud.

The big advantage of a gasket mount is not just the soft cushion effect (which sometimes isn't even there with stiff metal or carbon fiber plates) but that the structure as a whole is floating and sounds more uniform. Some people strongly prefer this, others don't mind.

 

Maybe that is the essence of this hobby: it is all about personal preference and perceived differences, values etc. Little actual numbers or measurable differences, at least few reported ones. Switches with their force curves might the exception here, but even there the 'smoothness' appears very hard to quantify.

 

[Guest]

What is a good budget 75% aluminum kit? I'm thinking of Monsgeek M1 but I'm not sure yet.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

On 11/8/2023 at 1:50 AM, Chris2002 said:

What is a good budget 75% aluminum kit? I'm thinking of Monsgeek M1 but I'm not sure yet.

M1 seems like a good deal. However, I would say there appear to be a lot more budget metal cases from asia in recent months, with decent to really good quality; plenty of reviews on YT.

 

Not sure if you have these on your radar already, nor do I have any first hand with these experience sadly, but I thought to just list a bunch of boards/kits in a similar price range I found:

https://cidootech.com/products/cidoo-v75-plus

https://www.amazon.com/Womier-Mechanical-Bluetooth-Swappable-Pre-lubed/dp/B0C9T88PZ3

https://www.yunzii.com/products/yunzii-al71-mechanical-keyboard

(note that the womier and yunzii are basically the same board)

 

The Cidoo also comes as a fully build for just 10$ more, so unless you already have good switches & keycaps or you want to replace everything anyway, that might be a good option. Even if you don't plan on using them, 10$ for caps and switches is pretty nice as well.

 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Not sure if you have these on your radar already, nor do I have any first hand with these experience sadly, but I thought to just list a bunch of boards/kits in a similar price range I found:

https://cidootech.com/products/cidoo-v75-plus

I only recently find out about cidoo V75 plus and the full build one is very enticing since i only have my current keyboard cheap keyboard and no other switches or keycaps, i also found about leobog hi75 but not sure about which to get

[Guest]

I also find this aluminum kit AL75, has anyone heard of this kit before?

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

3 hours ago, Chris2002 said:

I also find this aluminum kit AL75, has anyone heard of this kit before?

Haven't heard of it before, but from a glance it looks familiar. Best guess is this is another case where the factory started selling the designs of their customers or variations of it themselves.

So could be great, but I would try to find a review or teardown online first.

 

Edit: yeah, it is even on the same page: Monsgeek M1. Different PCB or plate though, and it doesn't have the accent on the side. So could be the same factory making both cases and they just reused the design, bought some plates/PCB and made their own brand. Or a third party commissioned these and the factory saved some time by reusing earlier work...

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

Not sure if this warranted its own thread/topic, but apparently RTINGS has started testing switches on a larger level:

 

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard-switch/learn/research/launch-article

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard-switch

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard-switch/reviews/best/switches

 

 

I haven't watched the video and only glanced over the launch article, but it appears pretty data driven and not hung up on subjective feels or sound tests. Might be interesting to see what they can come up with in the future.

[Volbet]

It's no secret that I liked the previous MMStudio keyboard, the Class80, so they didn't have to ask twice when they put up the group buy for the Class60 with electrocapacitive Topre-like switches. And only seven months later the group buy finally arrived:

 

The switches are fairly light, which I do have to get used to, but the build quality of this keyboard is extremely good. It's the first keyboard that I haven't had to do the forcebreak mod to, which speaks to the quality of the aluminum used. It's also really nice sounding without any foam, which again speaks to the quality. 

The leaf spring mounting is also really nice, as it offers a pretty good middle point in stiffness between gasket mounting and top mounting. 

 

The keycaps are the beige version of the "new" GMK MTNU keycaps, which are basically Cherry profile keycaps sculpted like Drop's MT3 keycaps. They're also PBT, which makes them really nice for everyday use. As for typing, I think it's a bit too early to say. I do find them really nice to type on, but that might also be down to the electrocapacitive switches. 

 

My main criticism is that you can only use plate-mounted stabilizers if you use the electrocapacitive switches. It's not a deal breaker, but it's worth taking into account, if you're in the market for the extras that are now available. But if you throw in some Durock or Owlabs plate-mount stabilizers, you're going to have an experience very similar to PCB-mounted stabilizers- Especially if you Band-Aid mod the plate before installing the stabilizers. 

 

If you're in any way familiar with MMStudio's keyboards, you also know that they add a buzzer and a solenoid to them. Both are very much gimmicks, as you'll probably only turn them on to hear what they sound like and then promptly turn them off. 

I will say the solenoid does offer some pretty good haptic feedback to your typing, but it's probably not going to be enjoyable for long typing sessions.

 

EDIT:

Another really nice thing is that the keyboard supports VIAL, which is second only to VIA in regards to customizing your keyboard. Especially in a small keyboard like this, it's a must to have the ability to set up layers and macros, as you do lack a bunch of keys. 

 

On 12/19/2023 at 12:09 PM, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Not sure if this warranted its own thread/topic, but apparently RTINGS has started testing switches on a larger level:

 

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard-switch/learn/research/launch-article

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard-switch

https://www.rtings.com/keyboard-switch/reviews/best/switches

 

 

I haven't watched the video and only glanced over the launch article, but it appears pretty data driven and not hung up on subjective feels or sound tests. Might be interesting to see what they can come up with in the future.

I generally really like RTings' approach too reviews, so this is welcomed news. I do fear that keyboard enthusiasts, just like audiophiles, aren't going to be very persuaded by pure data, as a lot of the market seem to more concerned with the subjective side of the experience.  

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

5 minutes ago, Volbet said:

The keycaps are the beige version of the "new" GMK MTNU keycaps, which are basically Cherry profile kaycaps sculpted like Drop's MT3 keycaps.

huh, look really nice. Maybe I need to give this another look. Though GMK is usually far outside of my comfort zone in terms of pricing for "just" keycaps.

6 minutes ago, Volbet said:

I do fear that keyboard enthusiasts, just like audiophiles, aren't going to be very persuaded by pure data, as a lot of the market seem to more concerned with the subjective side of the experience.  

You're probably not wrong. Lots of subjective criteria in the space, especially when it comes to noise and feel.

 

I see some issues with things like their smoothness ranking, which they themselves state is difficult to quantify and not always lining up with subjective reviews. I think the idea to analyse the noise in the force curves is a valid approach, but the devil might be really in the detail here. It is not just the amplitude of the noise, but I would assume also the frequency distribution. A high amplitude but very high frequency noise might be perceived similar to friction of to finely ground but still somewhat rough surfaces. You feel friction, but it is a smooth and even one. Kinda like two finely ground stone surfaces sliding.

Compare that to a bumpy curve, which might be described as scratchy, where you would see a less noisy but undulating line with some spikes on it.

 

And that doesn't even take into account things like bias from the actuation speed of the testing machine. Not sure how theirs in particular works, but I remember reading somewhere that they go down very slowly to get the precise measurements. Would also mean that something like stick-friction could come into play, which you would not feel much on regular operations I'd assume.

 

Where I am really interested and where the wider audience might be as well, is switch performance in terms of batch to batch and even intra-batch deviations. How wide is the scatter on cheap vs expensive ones? How good is the factory lubing, how consistent are those fabled high-end switches over the years? That is where a whole automated and reproducible setup could really shine.

 

[Volbet]

2 hours ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

I see some issues with things like their smoothness ranking, which they themselves state is difficult to quantify and not always lining up with subjective reviews. I think the idea to analyse the noise in the force curves is a valid approach, but the devil might be really in the detail here. It is not just the amplitude of the noise, but I would assume also the frequency distribution. A high amplitude but very high frequency noise might be perceived similar to friction of to finely ground but still somewhat rough surfaces. You feel friction, but it is a smooth and even one. Kinda like two finely ground stone surfaces sliding.

Compare that to a bumpy curve, which might be described as scratchy, where you would see a less noisy but undulating line with some spikes on it.

 

And that doesn't even take into account things like bias from the actuation speed of the testing machine. Not sure how theirs in particular works, but I remember reading somewhere that they go down very slowly to get the precise measurements. Would also mean that something like stick-friction could come into play, which you would not feel much on regular operations I'd assume.

 

Where I am really interested and where the wider audience might be as well, is switch performance in terms of batch to batch and even intra-batch deviations. How wide is the scatter on cheap vs expensive ones? How good is the factory lubing, how consistent are those fabled high-end switches over the years? That is where a whole automated and reproducible setup could really shine.

I also saw an issue in the smoothness rating, which I'm glad RTings did, as well. 

I think they're on to something with analyzing noise in a force curve, but my issue with that is, that they're essentially wanting to translate a subjective experience into an electrical signal. 

Noise in what should be a smooth signal will obviously tell you something about the development in the signal, but it will tell you nothing about how that noise feels to a person. As you said, different types of noise might feel different, even with slight differences in the noise. And that will probably be infinitely difficult to quantify. 

[Scitesh]

Hey folks my k90 (non rgb) died after 7 years of service and i am looking for a new keyboard with the following features 

 

- Mechanical keyboard tactile but not too loud (think mx brown or razer orange). 

- Full layout or TKL (i need to use home end pgup and pgdw, alot as part of my workflow) 

- Media cluster + some kind of volume knob 

- (optional) per key rgb 

- (optional) hot swap

- (optional) macros

- (optional) white /silver in color

 

My budget is INR 5 to 8k 

 

Thanks