What's a Good CPU for Chess Engine Game Analysis?

[BigBig5]

My dad is going to build a new desktop because his just died. He plays chess a lot and goes to tournaments. He likes using a Chess Engine Game Analysis with ChessBase. What's a Good Budget CPU for Chess Engine Game Analysis that not overkill? I've been looking at the Skylake CPU's because of future proof with DDR4 and USB 3.0/3.1 and also it uses latest socket.

Edited October 22, 2015 by BigBig5

[Archarin]

You're going to need to find out from the developers how they are processing the analysis. It's most likely a CPU intensive program. 5820k maybe?

[Knaj]

You're going to need to find out from the developers how they are processing the analysis. It's most likely a CPU intensive program. 5820k maybe?

 

Would agree with this.

 

What was his previous computer though?

[BigBig5]

Would agree with this.

 

What was his previous computer though?

It was a really old Athlon 64 X2 before AM2.

[Lays]

I think @Dark_wizzie does this, he may have some insight.

[netherbawss235]

OOOhhhhh god i read this as "My dad is going to build a new desktop because he just died."

[BigBig5]

OOOhhhhh god i read this as "My dad is going to build a new desktop because he just died."

LOL LOL :lol:      :lol:

[vanished]

.... I've been looking at the Skylake CPU's because of future proof.

 

Come back and read that again in 10 years... it's going to look really silly  Nothing is future-proof.

 

Now, if it's a CPU intense thing (which I assume it is), it depends on your definition of over kill.  If it just requires oodles of CPU power and not much else, dual 18 core xeons sounds good to me, but I suppose if you are on a budget the 5820k would be ok.

[stconquest]

$5 says an i3 is plenty of CPU to go around.

[BigBig5]

Come back and read that again in 10 years... it's going to look really silly  Nothing is future-proof.

 

Now, if it's a CPU intense thing (which I assume it is), it depends on your definition of over kill.  If it just requires oodles of CPU power and not much else, dual 18 core xeons sounds good to me, but I suppose if you are on a budget the 5820k would be ok.

Well i am thinking budget.

[vanished]

Well i am thinking budget.

Yeah we really don't actually know any of the details of this application.  We've all assumed it is highly CPU intensive and multithreaded but those are just guesses (unless someone secretly knows).  It would be beneficial to know what hardware the program can actually take advantage of, so we can suggest the most reasonable option.

[stconquest]

Well i am thinking budget.

 

Run it on your i5.  Then disable 2 cores and run it again.

[BigBig5]

Yeah we really don't actually know any of the details of this application.  We've all assumed it is highly CPU intensive and multithreaded but those are just guesses (unless someone secretly knows).  It would be beneficial to know what hardware the program can actually take advantage of, so we can suggest the most reasonable option.

Well I talked to him and he uses many different ones some that uses single-core and others muti-core. But one of the engines he uses is Stockfish.

[braneopbru]

Just quickly browsing through the software manual, it would seem that hyperthreading IS supported.

 

You would want to get the fastest clock speed possible on as many cores as possible on a cpu that'll do hyperthreading. So at minimum a Haswell i7, ideally a Haswell-e i7 or Xeon.

 

The manual also makes mention of Cloud engines. It seems like you can have an account that you will allow you to do parallel processing on the local machine and a remote multi-core machine.It might be worth looking into the cost of that service and comparing that with buying an i3 and using cloud services for the horsepower to run the analysis. 

[BoredErica]

 

I think @Dark_wizzie does this, he may have some insight.

I have been summoned! @Lays

 

 

I recommend the 8350.

 
 
Pentium G3258 - $70 CPU + $60 mobo + $30 cooler - 3373 kn/s
37% OC - $160 ~ 4520  kn/s
28 kilonodes per dollar
 
FX-8350 - $175 + $65 + 30 - 10616 kn/s
10% OC - $270 - 11677 kn/s
43 kilonodes per dollar
 
6600k - $270 + $90 + 30 - 9625 kn/s
24% OC - $390 ~ 11966 kn/s 
30 kilonodes per dollar
 
5820k @ 4.5ghz ~ 16600 kn/s
$390 + 160 + 30 = $580 ~ 16600 kn/s
29 kilonodes per dollar
 
5960x @ 4.5ghz ~ 21983 kn/s
$1050 + 160 + 30 = $1240 ~ 21983kn/s
18 kilonodes per dollar
 
The speeds of the 6 and 8 core are from https://sites.google.com/site/computerschess/stockfish-chess-benchmarks
In that chart you might find my overclocked 6600k performing very well - that's because I went full try-hard with the benchmarking process. Do not expect to reach my speed with any Skylake chip. My stock 6600k entry was just a normal run however, so I derived the values from there.
 
Important caveats:
1. Double nps doesn't mean double the strength. Double speed is maybe 10% stronger, or +50 elo or so. Even that needs another caveat of its own - the conditions vary. Computer chess is very complicated.
2. 5000 knps with 1 core is better than 5000 knps from 8 cores, due to overhead. The speed reads the exact same, but the strength is not.
3. Hyperthreading is VERY MISLEADING. It inflates your nps but drastically increases your overhead. Your CPU is calculating the same position more than once, meaning your extra speed may lead to a net decrease in strength. Testing the actual situation is very difficult and varies from each build of an engine and testing conditions. But roughly I say that HT is a small irrelevant boost to 4 cores on SF, and a loss in Komodo and Houdini. On anything more than a 4 core I think HT just makes everything weaker all of the time. Due to the way the skus are lined up, I do not recommend 6700k for chess! Get the 6600k or the hexacore Haswell-E, no in-between. When you see people testing chess with hyperthreading in CPU review sites, those guys have no idea what they're doing.

4. DDR4 is faster than DDR3 for chess. But this is a small point and secondary to the CPU.

5. The faster the CPU, the longer your dad plans to analyze one specific position, the more ram it takes to keep the engine calculating at top strength. But, this effect is generally exaggerated by chess-people. It's a nice bonus, but if your dad is strapped on cash, 8gb setup is fine. 8gb DDR3 kits are cheap. You can also go 16gb DDR3.

6. If your dad is not familiar with chess engine analysis, I recommend he ask around for IDEA analysis in forums like Rybka forum or Talkchess.

7. I only see core scaling getting better in the future. This gives another bonus to the 8350 recommendation. In fact, less than 2 days ago, the lazy smp patch was released for Stockfish from abrok. The strength of that patch comes from its scaling beyond 4 cores. My 6600k doesn't really benefit from it.

 
USB 3.1 just depends on how important that is to your father. Don't need it for chess, so it's more subjective.

 

Considering how often your dad probably upgrades his PC, by the time he upgrades again, he'll need to swap everything, so I don't necessarily find DDR4/Skylake socket to be worth much.

[BigBig5]

 

 

I have been summoned! @Lays

 

 

I recommend the 8350.

 

 

Pentium G3258 - $70 CPU + $60 mobo + $30 cooler - 3373 kn/s

37% OC - $160 ~ 4520  kn/s

28 kilonodes per dollar

 

FX-8350 - $175 + $65 + 30 - 10616 kn/s

10% OC - $270 - 11677 kn/s

43 kilonodes per dollar

 

6600k - $270 + $90 + 30 - 9625 kn/s

24% OC - $390 ~ 11966 kn/s 

30 kilonodes per dollar

 

5820k @ 4.5ghz ~ 16600 kn/s

$390 + 160 + 30 = $580 ~ 16600 kn/s

29 kilonodes per dollar

 

5960x @ 4.5ghz ~ 21983 kn/s

$1050 + 160 + 30 = $1240 ~ 21983kn/s

18 kilonodes per dollar

 

The speeds of the 6 and 8 core are from https://sites.google.com/site/computerschess/stockfish-chess-benchmarks

In that chart you might find my overclocked 6600k performing very well - that's because I went full try-hard with the benchmarking process. Do not expect to reach my speed with any Skylake chip. My stock 6600k entry was just a normal run however, so I derived the values from there.

 

Important caveats:

1. Double nps doesn't mean double the strength. Double speed is maybe 10% stronger, or +50 elo or so. Even that needs another caveat of its own - the conditions vary. Computer chess is very complicated.

2. 5000 knps with 1 core is better than 5000 knps from 8 cores, due to overhead. The speed reads the exact same, but the strength is not.

3. Hyperthreading is VERY MISLEADING. It inflates your nps but drastically increases your overhead. Your CPU is calculating the same position more than once, meaning your extra speed may lead to a net decrease in strength. Testing the actual situation is very difficult and varies from each build of an engine and testing conditions. But roughly I say that HT is a small irrelevant boost to 4 cores on SF, and a loss in Komodo and Houdini. On anything more than a 4 core I think HT just makes everything weaker all of the time. Due to the way the skus are lined up, I do not recommend 6700k for chess! Get the 6600k or the hexacore Haswell-E, no in-between. When you see people testing chess with hyperthreading in CPU review sites, those guys have no idea what they're doing.

4. DDR4 is faster than DDR3 for chess. But this is a small point and secondary to the CPU.

5. The faster the CPU, the longer your dad plans to analyze one specific position, the more ram it takes to keep the engine calculating at top strength. But, this effect is generally exaggerated by chess-people. It's a nice bonus, but if your dad is strapped on cash, 8gb setup is fine. 8gb DDR3 kits are cheap. You can also go 16gb DDR3.

6. If your dad is not familiar with chess engine analysis, I recommend he ask around for IDEA analysis in forums like Rybka forum or Talkchess.

7. I only see core scaling getting better in the future. This gives another bonus to the 8350 recommendation. In fact, less than 2 days ago, the lazy smp patch was released for Stockfish from abrok. The strength of that patch comes from its scaling beyond 4 cores. My 6600k doesn't really benefit from it.

 

USB 3.1 just depends on how important that is to your father. Don't need it for chess, so it's more subjective.

 

Considering how often your dad probably upgrades his PC, by the time he upgrades again, he'll need to swap everything, so I don't necessarily find DDR4/Skylake socket to be worth much.

 

Well the 8350 doesn't have good Single-thread performance 

[Prysin]

Well the 8350 doesn't have good Single-thread performance 

most high compute cases are multi-threaded beyond 8 cores so it does not matter at all. Aslong as you can push all the 8 threads, the FX is actually a decent CPU given its price.

 

In WoW, FX gonna suck and would be wrecked by a G3258...

now put that FX vs a G3258 in video rendering and editing and suddenly, the FX which previously was shit due to single thread performance, will simply demolish the G3258... hell if 8 cores can be used, it will beat out i5 4690k's quite handily...

[BigBig5]

 

 

I have been summoned! @Lays

 

 

I recommend the 8350.

 

 

Pentium G3258 - $70 CPU + $60 mobo + $30 cooler - 3373 kn/s

37% OC - $160 ~ 4520  kn/s

28 kilonodes per dollar

 

FX-8350 - $175 + $65 + 30 - 10616 kn/s

10% OC - $270 - 11677 kn/s

43 kilonodes per dollar

 

6600k - $270 + $90 + 30 - 9625 kn/s

24% OC - $390 ~ 11966 kn/s 

30 kilonodes per dollar

 

5820k @ 4.5ghz ~ 16600 kn/s

$390 + 160 + 30 = $580 ~ 16600 kn/s

29 kilonodes per dollar

 

5960x @ 4.5ghz ~ 21983 kn/s

$1050 + 160 + 30 = $1240 ~ 21983kn/s

18 kilonodes per dollar

 

The speeds of the 6 and 8 core are from https://sites.google.com/site/computerschess/stockfish-chess-benchmarks

In that chart you might find my overclocked 6600k performing very well - that's because I went full try-hard with the benchmarking process. Do not expect to reach my speed with any Skylake chip. My stock 6600k entry was just a normal run however, so I derived the values from there.

 

Important caveats:

1. Double nps doesn't mean double the strength. Double speed is maybe 10% stronger, or +50 elo or so. Even that needs another caveat of its own - the conditions vary. Computer chess is very complicated.

2. 5000 knps with 1 core is better than 5000 knps from 8 cores, due to overhead. The speed reads the exact same, but the strength is not.

3. Hyperthreading is VERY MISLEADING. It inflates your nps but drastically increases your overhead. Your CPU is calculating the same position more than once, meaning your extra speed may lead to a net decrease in strength. Testing the actual situation is very difficult and varies from each build of an engine and testing conditions. But roughly I say that HT is a small irrelevant boost to 4 cores on SF, and a loss in Komodo and Houdini. On anything more than a 4 core I think HT just makes everything weaker all of the time. Due to the way the skus are lined up, I do not recommend 6700k for chess! Get the 6600k or the hexacore Haswell-E, no in-between. When you see people testing chess with hyperthreading in CPU review sites, those guys have no idea what they're doing.

4. DDR4 is faster than DDR3 for chess. But this is a small point and secondary to the CPU.

5. The faster the CPU, the longer your dad plans to analyze one specific position, the more ram it takes to keep the engine calculating at top strength. But, this effect is generally exaggerated by chess-people. It's a nice bonus, but if your dad is strapped on cash, 8gb setup is fine. 8gb DDR3 kits are cheap. You can also go 16gb DDR3.

6. If your dad is not familiar with chess engine analysis, I recommend he ask around for IDEA analysis in forums like Rybka forum or Talkchess.

7. I only see core scaling getting better in the future. This gives another bonus to the 8350 recommendation. In fact, less than 2 days ago, the lazy smp patch was released for Stockfish from abrok. The strength of that patch comes from its scaling beyond 4 cores. My 6600k doesn't really benefit from it.

 

USB 3.1 just depends on how important that is to your father. Don't need it for chess, so it's more subjective.

 

Considering how often your dad probably upgrades his PC, by the time he upgrades again, he'll need to swap everything, so I don't necessarily find DDR4/Skylake socket to be worth much.

 

 

 

most high compute cases are multi-threaded beyond 8 cores so it does not matter at all. Aslong as you can push all the 8 threads, the FX is actually a decent CPU given its price.

 

In WoW, FX gonna suck and would be wrecked by a G3258...

now put that FX vs a G3258 in video rendering and editing and suddenly, the FX which previously was shit due to single thread performance, will simply demolish the G3258... hell if 8 cores can be used, it will beat out i5 4690k's quite handily...

Well what chipset would be good for a FX 8350 CPU with no OC or a little if any?

[Prysin]

Well what chipset would be good for a FX 8350 CPU with no OC or a little if any?

970 or 990x or 990FX....

 

If you want it to be rock stable, get 990FX as most of those boards have 8+2 phase VRM setups.

970 boards can be a bit more tempramental with the full 8 core versions.

 

the 970 boards that are fine to use:

MSI 970 Gaming  <- this board can mildly OC

Gigabyte 970 UD3P (only the ud3p version. any other variation of these letters does not feature 8+2 phases) <- this board can OC

ASrock Fatal1ty 970 Performance (8+2 phase)

 

best boards:

Asus 990FX Sabertooth R2.0 Gen3 (8+2 phase military grade)

Asus ROG Crosshair V Formula Z (8+2phase)

ASrock Fatal1ty 990FX Professional (12+2 phase)

ASrock 990FX Extreme9 (12+2 phase)

 

 

That are the baords i would suggest. Do not get fooled by the Asus boards having less power delivery phases, they are by far some of the best boards with THE best components availible. I used to own the 990FX Sabertooth R2.0 Gen2 (it has PCIe gen 2... the Gen3 board has PCIe Gen3)

[BoredErica]

Don't bother getting the 'flagship' motherboards, it makes no sense bang/buck wise. And if that isn't a deterrent, you should try the hexacore in the first place.

 

Get a pretty cheap but decent motherboard, slap on the 8350 with $30 cooler and we're done. Single threaded performance is nice but in chess, the extra cores of the 8350 are much stronger than offerings around its price point. I've already laid out for you the price per kilonode. There is no need to think about performance/performance or just performance anymore because I've listed the performance from those CPUs in chess.

 

Core scaling gets better with newer versions of Komodo or Stockfish, not worse. An 8 core will only compare more and more favorably to a 4 core or 2 core in the future. As I mentioned, just 2-3 days ago the Lazy SMP patch for Stockfish was released on abrok, giving it a boost in strength when the number of cores is over 4.

[BigBig5]

Don't bother getting the 'flagship' motherboards, it makes no sense bang/buck wise. And if that isn't a deterrent, you should try the hexacore in the first place.

 

Get a pretty cheap but decent motherboard, slap on the 8350 with $30 cooler and we're done. Single threaded performance is nice but in chess, the extra cores of the 8350 are much stronger than offerings around its price point. I've already laid out for you the price per kilonode. There is no need to think about performance/performance or just performance anymore because I've listed the performance from those CPUs in chess.

 

Core scaling gets better with newer versions of Komodo or Stockfish, not worse. An 8 core will only compare more and more favorably to a 4 core or 2 core in the future. As I mentioned, just 2-3 days ago the Lazy SMP patch for Stockfish was released on abrok, giving it a boost in strength when the number of cores is over 4.

So you are saying I should choose a 6 core over a 8 core?

Edited October 23, 2015 by BigBig5

[BoredErica]

So you are saying I should choose a 6 core over a 8 core?

Only if the budget allows for it. The 8350 is better bang for the buck. The hexacore is faster but more expensive.

[stconquest]

Only if the budget allows for it. The 8350 is better bang for the buck. The hexacore is faster but more expensive.

 

He might mean the FX 6300/6350.

[BigBig5]

Only if the budget allows for it. The 8350 is better bang for the buck. The hexacore is faster but more expensive.

What hexacore CPU are you talking about?

[BigBig5]

He might mean the FX 6300/6350.

Well both of these are cheaper on Newegg.