Sound clarity help

[Brownfield1995]

Is there any way for me to get better sound quality on my desktop without a sound card?

[Enderman]

buy a new motherboard?

use an external DAC (which is basically a sound card)?

buy better speakers?

[spartaman64]

most of the time its the headphones or speakers that make the difference not the sound card

[xtroria]

Try your audio gear from multiple sources, if it sounds the same then you basically need a better speaker / headphone. It could be your source (PC) has a bad on-board audio in general

[Guest]

Get better headphones or speakers. What a concept.

[creatip123]

Without buying anything?

Try using foobar2k, and download WASAPI plugin, all free download. WASAPI is bypassing directsound and taking exclusive control of the audio device installed. IMO, directsound gives a bit muffled sound, while WASAPI gives flatter sound with a bit more distinct highs. Judge for yourself. It's free, so yeah, nothing to lose.

[Guest]

Without buying anything?

Try using foobar2k, and download WASAPI plugin, all free download. WASAPI is bypassing directsound and taking exclusive control of the audio device installed. IMO, directsound gives a bit muffled sound, while WASAPI gives flatter sound with a bit more distinct highs. Judge for yourself. It's free, so yeah, nothing to lose.

 

It's been shown that WASAPI gives significantly better PRaT in double blind testing. Great to see science confirming our subconscious biases!

 

Oh. I think I meant subjective preferences.

[creatip123]

It's been shown that WASAPI gives significantly better PRaT in double blind testing. Great to see science confirming our subconscious biases!

 

Oh. I think I meant subjective preferences.

 

A few older software forums mentioned that since vista, directsound is downright crap. WASAPI (or ASIO) just bypass the crap and make the sound device perform as it should have, (without the crappy directsound interfering)

 

PRaT itself got one foot in science, the other in placebo world. It was in an argument in HA: http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=89485, without reaching a real conclusion (is it a myth or a fact)

[Guest]

A few older software forums mentioned that since vista, directsound is downright crap. WASAPI (or ASIO) just bypass the crap and make the sound device perform as it should have, (without the crappy directsound interfering)

 

PRaT itself got one foot in science, the other in placebo world. It was in an argument in HA: http://www.hydrogenaud.io/forums/index.php?showtopic=89485, without reaching a real conclusion (is it a myth or a fact)

 

I doubt it. It may make a difference with recording devices, but the idea that it causes non-flat frequency response is too funny for words.

[creatip123]

I doubt it. It may make a difference with recording devices, but the idea that it causes non-flat frequency response is too funny for words.

 

The PRaT or WASAPI?

[Guest]

The PRaT or WASAPI?

 

Both.

[creatip123]

Both.

 

As for PRaT, even if it's true (still indecisive about that, but leaning toward 'it's true'), by definition, it shouldn't affect FR at all. 

 

As for WASAPI, let's see if I can catch it on tape, figuratively speaking: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1x8expwxaysmxmj/IMG_0270.MOV?dl=0 

It's a raw/undedited video, recorded just using ipad 3 with its half-crap built in mic. 350MB .MOV file. Didn't resize the video because I was afraid re-encoding would change the sound. Recorded continuously to avoid the possibility of foul plays like different files, different EQ, etc.

 

- It's best to download it before playing, so it's easier to seek forward and backward to compare the songs

- excuse the white noise. It was raining a bit, I didn't know the mic would pick up the rain noise

- if MPC can't play it with sound, use quicktime or windows media player. MPC's Haali codec can't read the sound, apparently. 

- 15+ years old Kenwood 3-way bookshelf speaker + Lepai. Only used one channel (left)

- it's not world changing of a difference, but it's audible

[Guest]

As for PRaT, even if it's true (still indecisive about that, but leaning toward 'it's true'), by definition, it shouldn't affect FR at all. 

 

As for WASAPI, let's see if I can catch it on tape, figuratively speaking: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1x8expwxaysmxmj/IMG_0270.MOV?dl=0

 

Used VLC to extract the audio from the video and Audacity to split and time-align the playbacks. A/Bing and audio differencing suggest that there is a level difference but I can't hear any overall change in the FR so far.

[ShearMe]

Used VLC to extract the audio from the video and Audacity to split and time-align the playbacks. A/Bing and audio differencing suggest that there is a level difference but I can't hear any overall change in the FR so far.

The level difference probably explains the subjective "confusion" then.

[Guest]

The level difference probably explains the subjective "confusion" then.

 

Probably.

[BoredErica]

Frankly, the functions Foobar is capable of are already analyzed by the guys at HA. They say there's no real reason for WASAPI so I don't bother. That's good enough for me for now. Every time I try to prove them wrong I get pwned.

[vembutech]

Use quality speakers or headphones.Use quality audio.

[BoredErica]

Use quality speakers or headphones.Use quality audio.

Would've never have guessed.

[creatip123]

Used VLC to extract the audio from the video and Audacity to split and time-align the playbacks. A/Bing and audio differencing suggest that there is a level difference but I can't hear any overall change in the FR so far.

 

Well, first off, this is a classic case of 'fighting over empty wallet'. It's an old local proverb where 2 guys found a wallet on the street, and they literally fight about who get to keep it. In the end it's just an empty wallet. 

 

2 points that got me thinking it's that case:

- Foobar and WASAPI are both free. Takes 5 minutes to download and get them working. Nothing to lose, just a matter of want to or not want to.

- I gain and lose nothing either way (if it's indeed different or not)

 

Having said that, this is a bit of a thorn in my toe. Am I really that delusional? So I thought of another approach. Seems like you're familiar with audacity too. It's a good thing, because that's what I used for this one:

 

- One important feature of audacity that I forgot was the ability to record loopback (or stereo mix). So I set it up to record loopback sounds, using just one channel (mono) to keep it simple.

 

- First I recorded loopback from DS (foobar with DS output), then from WASAPI. Then I copy-pasted the track from DS, and inverted it, giving 3 tracks, DS, DS inverted, and WASAPI. Needless to say, all time-matched

 

- Naturally, when DS and DS inverted are played together, no sound will come out, because the waveforms cancel each other out. So I amplified the DS track by 0.6dB just to give a tad of loudness difference. In the picture below, you can see the waveform was inverted, and the WASAPI track was muted:

 

 

- Then I exported the resulting sound to PCM WAV file. 

 

- Did the same with WASAPI track. Undo the amplifying of DS track, muted the DS inverted, then inverted the WASAPI track. Exported the resulting sound, making sure they're all mixed to the same channels:

 

 

- At this point, I got 2 mixes, right? First mix: DS +0.6dB and DS +0dB inverted. Second mix: DS +0dB and WASAPI +0dB inverted. 

 

- Now this is the most important part. If what you said is true, that DS and WASAPI gives the exact same sound/FR, just different gain level, then the 2 mixes should look/sound identical, right? Well maybe a bit different in their gain levels, but they should sound exactly the same. So I loaded those 2 mixes back into audacity:

 

 

Well, those 2 tracks seem pretty different to me. Obviously they're very quiet, so I boosted both of them +25dB to normal listening volume, and uploaded the files, for anyone who wanna hear the sound comparison: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0fkv55d0tcruq9y/test11.rar?dl=0Don't worry, it's just 8.5MB.

[Guest]

Well, first off, this is a classic case of 'fighting over empty wallet'. It's an old local proverb where 2 guys found a wallet on the street, and they literally fight about who get to keep it. In the end it's just an empty wallet. 

 

2 points that got me thinking it's that case:

- Foobar and WASAPI are both free. Takes 5 minutes to download and get them working. Nothing to lose, just a matter of want to or not want to.

- I gain and lose nothing either way (if it's indeed different or not)

 

Having said that, this is a bit of a thorn in my toe. Am I really that delusional? So I thought of another approach. Seems like you're familiar with audacity too. It's a good thing, because that's what I used for this one:

 

- One important feature of audacity that I forgot was the ability to record loopback (or stereo mix). So I set it up to record loopback sounds, using just one channel (mono) to keep it simple.

 

- First I recorded loopback from DS (foobar with DS output), then from WASAPI. Then I copy-pasted the track from DS, and inverted it, giving 3 tracks, DS, DS inverted, and WASAPI. Needless to say, all time-matched

 

- Naturally, when DS and DS inverted are played together, no sound will come out, because the waveforms cancel each other out. So I amplified the DS track by 0.6dB just to give a tad of loudness difference. In the picture below, you can see the waveform was inverted, and the WASAPI track was muted:

 

 

 

- Then I exported the resulting sound to PCM WAV file. 

 

- Did the same with WASAPI track. Undo the amplifying of DS track, muted the DS inverted, then inverted the WASAPI track. Exported the resulting sound, making sure they're all mixed to the same channels:

 

 

 

- At this point, I got 2 mixes, right? First mix: DS +0.6dB and DS +0dB inverted. Second mix: DS +0dB and WASAPI +0dB inverted. 

 

- Now this is the most important part. If what you said is true, that DS and WASAPI gives the exact same sound/FR, just different gain level, then the 2 mixes should look/sound identical, right? Well maybe a bit different in their gain levels, but they should sound exactly the same. So I loaded those 2 mixes back into audacity:

 

Well, those 2 tracks seem pretty different to me. Obviously they're very quiet, so I boosted both of them +25dB to normal listening volume, and uploaded the files, for anyone who wanna hear the sound comparison: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0fkv55d0tcruq9y/test11.rar?dl=0Don't worry, it's just 8.5MB.

 

I think this is more convincing. There was too much background noise and too little quality in the video. I'll perform my own testing, of course, but that won't answer the question of what causes the difference. Awhile back I did a 320kbps mp3 vs wav test and there was basically no difference - DS is clearly altering your audio stream significantly, which it really shouldn't be doing.

[ShearMe]

Would've never have guessed.

 

Couldn't ever hadn't