Do I need a sound card or a Dac+Amp?

[SilverKnight]

I just got beyerdynamic mmx 300, the motherboard i have is Asus Hero VI.

I have listened to music, played video games, but i am wondering, how much of an improvement i would get from either a sound-card or a dac+amp?

Such as asus xonar stx or 02 dac+amp combo.

[WereCat]

Not much really. At least I personaly never heard a difference when switched from on board audio to some audio card.

[NathL]

I personally think that PCI sound cards aren't needed since I've been running of a 3.5mm jack for ages. If you want your headset to have better sound, or any audio peripherals for that matter,  get a DAC/AMP, but you can only really hear the difference if you've got really high end audio equipment, like studio monitors etc.

[Rorgash]

for those, possibly, i personally hear a huge difference using my V moda Crossfade M-100´s on my Sound Blaster X-Fi HD compared to onboard, AND compared to my FiiO E10 amp&dac

[MayflowerElectronics]

Do they get loud enough for you?

[SilverKnight]

Do they get loud enough for you?

Using them onboard, yes they are fine in-terms of sound levels.

 

I personally think that PCI sound cards aren't needed since I've been running of a 3.5mm jack for ages. If you want your headset to have better sound, or any audio peripherals for that matter,  get a DAC/AMP, but you can only really hear the difference if you've got really high end audio equipment, like studio monitors etc.

Would getting a DAC improve the sound-quality of the beyerdynamic mmx 300?

 

for those, possibly, i personally hear a huge difference using my V moda Crossfade M-100´s on my Sound Blaster X-Fi HD compared to onboard, AND compared to my FiiO E10 amp&dac

I will look into your suggestion. Are you suggesting The Sound Blaster X-Fi HD is better than the E10?

[NannerBeans]

Stick with your onboard. Getting a sound card is a bad idea and a dac/amp only offers minimal improvement with your headphones that you will likely not hear the difference.

[SilverKnight]

Stick with your onboard. Getting a sound card is a bad idea and a dac/amp only offers minimal improvement with your headphones that you will likely not hear the difference.

Are the mmx 300s considered low quality then?

[NannerBeans]

Are the mmx 300s considered low quality then?

No they're just not hard to drive. 

[Deli]

Are the mmx 300s considered low quality then?

THe Beyerdynamic MMX300 has impedance of 32 Ohms, which is easy to drive. If you have a 300 Ohms impedance headphone, an external AMP/DAC will make a noticeable difference.

[creatip123]

THe Beyerdynamic MMX300 has impedance of 32 Ohms, which is easy to drive. If you have a 300 Ohms impedance headphone, an external AMP/DAC will make a noticeable difference.

 

Ummm what if I tell you the 50 ohms HE-6 is harder to drive properly than most other 300 ohms headphones in the market? Google it to see if it's true or not....

[mach]

impedance isn't the only thing, you have to consider things like sensitivity too

A very low impedance AKG (particularly some old models) can be incredibly hard to drive

 

Many people on this forum are like Linus, believe in the theory that onboard sound makes no significant difference from a proper audio source

They either comparing the onboard sound with some cheap arse, entry-level toy like odac and fiio, or they really have bad hearing

Not intend to offend anyone but the ability to hear isn't the same among every human

Some people are able to tell the difference

 

Also, on such a computer oriented forum, many people recognize "high-end" audio gears as something like the asus sound cards

they are just jokes in the eyes of hardcore audiophiles

i haven't tried those sound card but I auditioned asus' external dac like the one Linus has

it was so mediocre and plain that I hardly remember the sound signature

it's very technical and versatile though, not bad sound given it's price point

but it is not an enthusiast grade thing at all

[BoredErica]

impedance isn't the only thing, you have to consider things like sensitivity too

A very low impedance AKG (particularly some old models) can be incredibly hard to drive

 

Many people on this forum are like Linus, believe in the theory that onboard sound makes no significant difference from a proper audio source

They either comparing the onboard sound with some cheap arse, entry-level toy like odac and fiio, or they really have bad hearing

Not intend to offend anyone but the ability to hear isn't the same among every human

Some people are able to tell the difference

 

Also, on such a computer oriented forum, many people recognize "high-end" audio gears as something like the asus sound cards

they are just jokes in the eyes of hardcore audiophiles

i haven't tried those sound card but I auditioned asus' external dac like the one Linus has

it was so mediocre and plain that I hardly remember the sound signature

it's very technical and versatile though, not bad sound given it's price point

but it is not an enthusiast grade thing at all

Head on over to HydrogenAudio. We've got a lot of ass-kicking to do for people like you.

 

As long as an amp is able to provide enough current and voltage to a headphone without clipping, then it's fine. Rarely is distortion in an amp or dac audible apart from the crappiest designs or tube amps. The (reasonable) argument would be that an amp might clip before it hits max volume on the volume knob. That's basically it.

 

Go back to Headfi where you belong, mmkay?

[Deli]

Ummm what if I tell you the 50 ohms HE-6 is harder to drive properly than most other 300 ohms headphones in the market? Google it to see if it's true or not....

OK, I generalize it a bit. There are of course hard to drive headphones with low impedance. 

 

Anyhow, the Beyerdynamic MMX300 although is an expensive gaming headset. It's no where near like Audeze LCD 3 or HD800. The headset is marketed for gamers. You don't expect Beyer will design it so it requires a $2000 DAC and a $2000 AMP just to drive it properly. 

[creatip123]

impedance isn't the only thing, you have to consider things like sensitivity too

A very low impedance AKG (particularly some old models) can be incredibly hard to drive

 

Many people on this forum are like Linus, believe in the theory that onboard sound makes no significant difference from a proper audio source

They either comparing the onboard sound with some cheap arse, entry-level toy like odac and fiio, or they really have bad hearing

Not intend to offend anyone but the ability to hear isn't the same among every human

Some people are able to tell the difference

 

Also, on such a computer oriented forum, many people recognize "high-end" audio gears as something like the asus sound cards

they are just jokes in the eyes of hardcore audiophiles

i haven't tried those sound card but I auditioned asus' external dac like the one Linus has

it was so mediocre and plain that I hardly remember the sound signature

it's very technical and versatile though, not bad sound given it's price point

but it is not an enthusiast grade thing at all

 

I somewhat agrees with this. Audio 'universe' has a vast range. 

 

However, if you've read most of the topics here, most people posting questions don't know much about audio, and looking to find the best value of price vs performance on the things they're looking for (headphones, soundcards, dacs, amps, etc). I don't really think those are the people that can really tell a difference between a fairly decent onboard/soundcard and a cap-modded onkyo soundcard.

 

Once in a while, comes people that are asking 'give me a suggestion of the best headphone/speakers. Money/price isn't a problem, so just suggest the best you know'. When asked what their 'real budget' is? Between $150-$250.....

[BoredErica]

OK, I generalize it a bit. There are of course hard to drive headphones with low impedance. 

 

Anyhow, the Beyerdynamic MMX300 although is an expensive gaming headset. It's no where near like Audeze LCD 3 or HD800. The headset is marketed for gamers. You don't expect Beyer will design something that requires a $2000 DAC and a $2000 AMP just to drive it properly. 

Price isn't an indicator of how hard a headphone is to drive. I wouldn't be too surprised if a K701 is harder to drive than the HD800s. The Audezes are also pretty easy to power nowadays, and their LCDX is ridiculously easy to power. Basically every single headphone used today can be driven by an amp south of $1000. (Apart from old, extreme designs like the Earspeakers or electrostats which don't work due to a different technology entirely that requires something different.)

 

However AFAIk the MMX300 is based off of DT770 32ohm version, which is relatively easy to drive. The largest factor is probably how loud you listen to music and what tracks you listen to, because that's a big difference in how much power an amp has to deliver.

[BoredErica]

 

I somewhat agrees with this. Audio 'universe' has a vast range. 

 

However, if you've read most of the topics here, most people posting questions don't know much about audio, and looking to find the best value of price vs performance on the things they're looking for (headphones, soundcards, dacs, amps, etc). I don't really think those are the people that can really tell a difference between a fairly decent onboard/soundcard and a cap-modded onkyo soundcard.

 

Once in a while, comes people that are asking 'give me a suggestion of the best headphone/speakers. Money/price isn't a problem, so just suggest the best you know'. When asked what their 'real budget' is? Between $150-$250.....

Pffft. The audio universe has a vast range from gamer headsets to placebofiles. Many dacs and amps are transparent as long as the amp is powerful enough to power the headphones. Past transparency yields no practical benefits. It's all in your head. Spending north of an ODA + Odac is utterly useless as far as fidelity is concerned. This applies even to the HE-6.

[creatip123]

OK, I generalize it a bit. There are of course hard to drive headphones with low impedance. 

 

Anyhow, the Beyerdynamic MMX300 although is an expensive gaming headset. It's no where near like Audeze LCD 3 or HD800. The headset is marketed for gamers. You don't expect Beyer will design something that requires a $2000 DAC and a $2000 AMP just to drive it properly. 

 

The proper technicality has been given above, by @mach. Impedance determines how much (or how high) voltage the amp needs to break the resistance barrier. That's just one factor. The other, and often more important, is the sensitivity/efficiency of the unit, usually presented by xx dB/Vrms or yy dB/mW. 

 

Most recent low impedance headphones/headsets are designed to be used with portable devices, hence most of them got high efficiency. Older headphones, and especially older planars however, got both low impedance + low efficiency (HE-6 is one example), so they'd need lots of stable current supply from the amp.

 

Newer/latest revisions of planars have gone more and more efficient, so the use of a dedicated amp is not mandatory anymore (although it's still recommended)

 

 

LCD-3 driven off a $40 candybar vintage Nokia. No distortions that I can hear.

[Deli]

The proper technicality has been given above, by @mach. Impedance determines how much (or how high) voltage the amp needs to break the resistance barrier. That's just one factor. The other, and often more important, is the sensitivity/efficiency of the unit, usually presented by xx dB/Vrms or yy dB/mW. 

 

Most recent low impedance headphones/headsets are designed to be used with portable devices, hence most of them got high efficiency. Older headphones, and especially older planars however, got both low impedance + low efficiency (HE-6 is one example), so they'd need lots of stable current supply from the amp.

 

Newer/latest revisions of planars have gone more and more efficient, so the use of a dedicated amp is not mandatory anymore (although it's still recommended)

 

LCD-3 driven off a $40 candybar vintage Nokia. No distortions that I can hear.

I was just about to say don't plug an LCD3 straight to the back of a PC rear iO. You win. 

[mach]

OK, I generalize it a bit. There are of course hard to drive headphones with low impedance. 

 

Anyhow, the Beyerdynamic MMX300 although is an expensive gaming headset. It's no where near like Audeze LCD 3 or HD800. The headset is marketed for gamers. You don't expect Beyer will design it so it requires a $2000 DAC and a $2000 AMP just to drive it properly. 

yeah, an onboard sound can "adequately" drive these to a comfortable/loud volume, but they won't be driven to their full potential

 

As a beyerdynamic fan, I've tried most of their headphones

They don't require much brute force to produce enough volume, even my 600 Ohm can deafen me using my phone with the volume to the max

still, I will consider beyer's headphones are moderately difficult to drive, they become significantly better when paired with nice, powerful sources

I have a MMX2 headphone (pretty low end stuff), when directly plugged in the onboard jack, it wasn't really good.

The bass is over-powering and everything else are weak

Using the usb adaptor comes with the headphone is much better. The sound finally has some mass but still not the best it can do

When plugging it in my tube amp (for music listening, not exactly high end but a decent source), the sound is more balanced and rich

so nice that I would consider it on par or even better than senn's hd25

of course in all these tests the headphone produced the same volume I felt comfortable with

 

not saying you should get some ridiculously priced equipments for your gaming headsets, but getting some reasonably decent gears would definitely make your experience with as lot happier 

[BoredErica]

I was just about to say don't plug an LCD3 straight to the back of a PC rear iO. You win. 

Don't worry... we're not keeping score with you. (At least, I'm not.  ) You're just trying to help and you're receptive to new ideas. Thing is though, for a $1400+ headphone, you should be able to afford a $300 O2/Odac combo to make sure you never clip. It removes a lot of what-ifs... What if I clip at a particular song? What if my onboard is actually audibly worse in a blind test? If you can afford a 1k+ headphone, $300 for an amp/dac for a peace of mind is a small price to pay. At least, that is how I look at it.

[BoredErica]

yeah, an onboard sound can adequately drive these, but they won't be driven to their full potential

As a beyerdynamic fan, I've tried most of their headphones

They don't require much brute force to produce enough volume, even my 600 Ohm can deafen me using my phone with the volume to the max

still, I will consider beyer's headphones are moderately difficult to drive, they become significantly better when paired with nice, powerful sources

I have a MMX2 headphone (pretty low end stuff), when directly plugged in the onboard jack, it wasn't really good.

The bass are over-powering and everything else are weak

Using the usb adaptor comes with the headphone is much better. The sound finally has some mass but still not the best it can do

When plugging it in my tube amp (for music listening, not exactly high end but a decent source), the sound is more balanced and rich

so nice that I would consider it on par or even better than senn's hd25

 

not saying you should get some ridiculously priced equipments for your gaming headsets, but getting some reasonably decent gears would definitely make your experience with them better 

Bass overpowering and everything else is weak sounds like BS. If there isn't enough power, it clips. If output impedance is too high, the FR gets some fuckery (but the 600ohm version should be immune to high output impedance because its own impedance is so god-damned high). That's about it. Inaccurate FR, noise, distortion, these are things that can be kept very much to a minimum in a dedicated but <$300 solution. By minimum I mean not audible to anybody. These are also well-understood and measurable criteria. Go do some blind tests and come back.

 

Tube amps suck for fidelity. It's old tech. It's like using vinyl for music listening in an age where we have CDs. Or VHS when we have BluRay. If your amp/dac is changing the sound, very likely it isn't transparent, aka not accurate. EQ exists for a reason: So you don't have to apply your syrup to your pancakes but also your broccoli and soup and bread. I'm not sticking with old tech because the tube glow is pretty, because nostalgia, because it's esoteric, because of buyer identity or post-purchase rationalization. Did you know that the duped often defend the con man that duped them? This is not a competition to see who has better hearing or to see who can spend more and thus be the more refined audiophile. Designing a dac/amp is not an art. Making music is. If there's an art involved here, it's designing a transparent amp/dac for the least amount of money possible.

 

Powering a headphone, the mechanics of a tube amp vs a solid state amplifier or of a pair of expensive cables, these are all well understood science. Do your ears defy science? Well, psychology could be considered a science, so I guess placebo and expectation bias counts, right?

[creatip123]

I was just about to say don't plug an LCD3 straight to the back of a PC rear iO. You win. 

 

Nah, it's not about who win and who lose. It's about giving the most accurate info as possible, so people won't get the wrong ideas and shape the wrong mindsets (like low impedance headphone automatically equals easy to drive, etc)

 

Not taking sides, but I do agree that amps somewhat got part in shaping the sounds, for better or worse. 

[BoredErica]

 

Nah, it's not about who win and who lose. It's about giving the most accurate info as possible, so people won't get the wrong ideas and shape the wrong mindsets (like low impedance headphone automatically equals easy to drive, etc)

 

Not taking sides, but I do agree that amps somewhat got part in shaping the sounds, for better or worse. 

You can argue that onboard is a bad idea for an expensive headphone. But once you tell me that a tube amp is better for accuracy or that a normal, non-tube amp/dac which is costlier than the ODA/Odac/O2 can net audible gains in audio quality due to increased accuracy/power, then I balk. If you can't even side with that, then we have little to agree on. These are not open-ended, subjective statements. Save your tube tweaking and fondness of the warm tube glow and sound for another day, it's irrelevant. We're talking about fidelity and the ability of an amp to power a headphone, not your preferences for colored sound. Your neutrality is telling.

 

A tube amp coloring the sound isn't fidelity brought about by a stronger amp delivering more power which a headphone (somehow) needs, you know better than this.

[Deli]

Don't worry... we're not keeping score with you. (At least, I'm not.  ) You're just trying to help and you're receptive to new ideas. Thing is though, for a $1400+ headphone, you should be able to afford a $300 O2/Odac combo to make sure you never clip. It removes a lot of what-ifs... What if I clip at a particular song? What if my onboard is actually audibly worse in a blind test? If you can afford a 1k+ headphone, $300 for an amp/dac for a peace of mind is a small price to pay. At least, that is how I look at it.

Agree with you on this one.