Do we have free will?

[Panda of the Shadow]

So I started my junior year (11th grade) a couple of weeks ago and I got a new Philosophy teacher and sadly to not have any classes with my favorite teacher. *Crys* With my new philosophy teacher we were discussing Egosim, Altroisim, Utilitatism, the golden rule (treat others like you want to be threated) and one other thing I forgot about . We judged Egoism to not be a real ethic theory because it has to flaws.

1. An ethic theroy needs to be universiable without being contradictory. It's not in an egoist's interest to have others be egoists. 
2. If somebody would ask an egoist for advice an egoist would have to give advice that profits him. And that defeats the whole point of advice.

 

Then we asked ourselves could there ever be a completly altroistic behavior.

 

Scenario: A kid is about to drown in a rather dangerous river. You're an average swimmer. You save the kid at the risk of your life.You're an average consumer.

 

 

What could be your reasons?

 

 

1. A possible reward.

2. Fame.

3. Your brain rewarding you with some hormons and shit. (Dopamine and stuff)

4. Not wanting to fell bad about letting that kid die.

 

Now number one and number two are not guaranteed so let's not think about those. 

 

 

So In my eyes the reason you are saving the kid is to get those rewards from your brain.

 

However my classmates and teacher think that it's about saving the kid.

 

I personally do think that humans are very very similair to animals and that we are driven by our insticts. 

 

Sadly my teacher completly blocks of when I tell him that we are instict driven egoistic scrubs. 

 

What is your opinon on that? Am I'm looking at this from a wrong angle? 

 

EDIT: Also when one thinks about it Altrusim is exactly as flawed as Egoism as an enthic therory. I think utilitatism is a great way to go. 

[DigitalHermit]

I'd save the kid for the sake of saving the kid...

 

Also, there's a theory out there that the observable universe is a computer simulation...

[Unhelpful]

Bacon.

 

4. But more of "Not wanting something bad to happen to anybody if I can help prevent it."

 

I am an asshole, but I prefer to see people unharmed and alive.

 

As for 1-3

1. I don't like getting stuff from anybody. Makes me feel awkward.

2. REALLY DON'T WANT FAME

3. All about dat natural high. (this one is possible. That feeling of "goodness" when you help someone)

[Rorgash]

btw, that has nothing to do with actual free will (finished Basic Physiology in UNI)

[Rorgash]

This is on the topic for true altruism or human selfishness, which is VERY different from the question on free will.

 

and no, there cannot be true altruistic behavior imo, there are some accidental things, but keeping your genes going or for the good of the group is still around.

 

btw these things goes down in how common they are the more people that are around, for example a person living in a small village tends to help other WAY WAY WAY more than someone who lives in a big city

[Panda of the Shadow]

btw, that has nothing to do with actual free will (finished Basic Physiology in UNI)

It has. If we don't have free will than this whole conversation about ethics is useless as we are unable to decide  how we want to and do behave, 

[Deletive]

Dude it's just natural... kids probably going to make more of a difference then I will.

[DigitalHermit]

Dude it's just natural... kids probably going to make more of a difference then I will.

^Also this^

[Rorgash]

It has. If we don't have free will than this whole conversation about ethics is useless as we are unable to decide  how we want to and do behave, 

the question of free will is WAY more complicated than limited to this relatively small question, and since you imminently give us a few options as to why someone might help the kid, and ask for which it is, that kinda says that there are no free will, but there sorta is a free will if a person stops reacting and actually controls their consciousness, something very few actually do.

 

also looking into what shapes a persons personality and choices before they ever come up, your answer to the question was made well before you ever knew the question, how a person was raised as well as all other experiences before, so is it still a free decision if you already made the choice years before?

 

for example 

 

Dude it's just natural... kids probably going to make more of a difference then I will.

 

 

did not make a free choice, since as he said its only natural to him, ie no free will on this choice ^^ tho if there are another 50 people standing there seeing the kid none might actually jump in to help. forgot what thats called now.

[Unhelpful]

the question of free will is WAY more complicated than limited to this relatively small question, and since you imminently give us a few options as to why someone might help the kid, and ask for which it is, that kinda says that there are no free will, but there sorta is a free will if a person stops reacting and actually controls their consciousness, something very few actually do.

 

also looking into what shapes a persons personality and choices before they ever come up, your answer to the question was made well before you ever knew the question, how a person was raised as well as all other experiences before, so is it still a free decision if you already made the choice years before?

Crap memories of Psych class are coming back.

 

@Rorgash y u do dis. I tried to forget.

[Jerakl]

I'd save the kid for the sake of saving the kid...

 

Also, there's a theory out there that the observable universe is a computer simulation...

Or that none of it's real and all in your head.

[Panda of the Shadow]

the question of free will is WAY more complicated than limited to this relatively small question, and since you imminently give us a few options as to why someone might help the kid, and ask for which it is, that kinda says that there are no free will, but there sorta is a free will if a person stops reacting and actually controls their consciousness, something very few actually do.

 

also looking into what shapes a persons personality and choices before they ever come up, your answer to the question was made well before you ever knew the question, how a person was raised as well as all other experiences before, so is it still a free decision if you already made the choice years before?

 

Well you are stating that we can control our consciousness at free will but can we really do that? 

 

I figure we are back to the good old 'Individuality is just the different learning history' (Said some Psychologist.) 

[Rorgash]

Well you are stating that we can control our consciousness at free will but can we really do that? 

 

I figure we are back to the good old 'Individuality is just the different learning history' (Said some Psychologist.) 

 

thats the first part, then the second part bring up why such a thing would be special, extremely special if even possible, hard to test, harder to prove.

[Panda of the Shadow]

thats the first part, then the second part bring up why such a thing would be special, extremely special if even possible, hard to test, harder to prove.

Impossible to prove I guess. But then again you can't prove shit in this world. 

[Rorgash]

Impossible to prove I guess. But then again you can't prove shit in this world. 

i would think that a sane psychopath would have more free will than a "normal" person, due to the lack of empathy which keeps feelings out of the decision and their more calculated thinking when it comes to gain/progress

[Panda of the Shadow]

i would think that a sane psychopath would have more free will than a "normal" person, due to the lack of empathy which keeps feelings out of the decision and their more calculated thinking when it comes to gain/progress

A sane psychopath I call that a contradictory of threms. 

[Rorgash]

A sane psychopath I call that a contradictory of threms. 

i wasnt sure how to say non murdering psychopathy, which is a normal thing, tons of company CEO´s and other people in such positions have psychopathic traits, its what allowed them to carve their way to such a position 

[Panda of the Shadow]

i wasnt sure how to say non murdering psychopathy, which is a normal thing, tons of company CEO´s and other people in such positions have psychopathic traits, its what allowed them to carve their way to such a position 

I'm not quite sure if my definiton of 'psychopathy' is correct. I would define a person as a psychopath if that person acts in a very irrational way. (Wait. WOMEN ARE PSYCHOPATHS! Sorry had to do it.) 

 

How would you define a psychopath? 

[Rorgash]

I'm not quite sure if my definiton of 'psychopathy' is correct. I would define a person as a psychopath if that person acts in a very irrational way. (Wait. WOMEN ARE PSYCHOPATHS! Sorry had to do it.) 

 

How would you define a psychopath? 

thats not a psychopath, and its not how I or you define it, it has a official set definition. tho googling it gives mostly complete shit.. which is interesting, mostly defining it as aggressive violent people which is NOT true at all... 

 

Psychopaths tends to be HIGHLY logical, irrational means jumpy emotions, which a psychopath just dont have at all.

 

partly close i guess, if you make sure to read the first part well and seeing the "OR" 

 

Psychopath: 

A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse. 

Psychopaths tend to lack normal human emotions such as guilt. They are also often highly intelligent and skilled at manipulating others. 

Also, psychopaths seem to appear normal. You would probably never guess there was something wrong with them. 

Note, not all psychopaths are serial killers.

Ted Bundy was a psychopath, but Richard Chase was a psychotic.

[Mentalguy]

 

1. A possible reward.

2. Fame.

3. Your brain rewarding you with some hormons and shit. (Dopamine and stuff)

4. Not wanting to fell bad about letting that kid die.

 

All are wrong.

 

I'd save the kid for the sake of saving the kid...

 

 

Also wrong..ish

 

 

 

You save the kid because it is the right thing to do. If you have any other motives for doing so, let someone who is a better human than you save them.

[G9x001]

You will understand why any normal person would save that Child when you have Children of your own. And if you remember this post in years to come you will look back and realise how self indulgent and ignorant you truly are when your young.

And believe me when I say this because I once thought like you.

[Nineshadow]

"free will" is kind of a pleonasm by the way.

[mr moose]

You will understand why any normal person would save that Child when you have Children of your own. And if you remember this post in years to come you will look back and realise how self indulgent and ignorant you truly are when your young.

And believe me when I say this because I once thought like you.

 

Ah yes, I know that feel.   When I read some posts on this forum and just wonder how many times I was like that, I do cringe quite often.

[mr moose]

[killcomic]

All are wrong.

 

Also wrong..ish

 

 

 

You save the kid because it is the right thing to do. If you have any other motives for doing so, let someone who is a better human than you save them.

I'm with you on this one.