Valve's Steam Controller now has a thumbstick

[theABCshop]

Now there's just too much going on on the controller. It's too busy/cramped.

[Xorbot]

So they need 3?

 

Just 2.  Just 2.

[Xorbot]

 Yeah but that's not really applicable to the steam controller, where the trackpads are supposed to be used as the analog sticks.

 

I personally don't need any analog sticks.  To me the Steam controller would be used because of the trackpads.  I already have a gamepad with 2 analog sticks.

 

So when it comes to it, I think either they put 2 sticks on so people can still use it as a standard Xbox controller which most controller-centric games are designed for, or leave both sticks off completely.  Then again, I am projecting and anticipating what other people will think, and I think that just 1 stick satisfies very few people.

[BallGum]

Grab a controller that has a thumb-stick. Now, tilt it slightly to the left, let go and watch as it returns to the middle.

Now, tilt it further to the left, then watch as it returns to the middle when you let go.

Neutral point, mouses and touch-pads don't have this aspect. You might even often find that you'll generate your own neutral point on your mouse-pad, potentially.

 

Originally this controller had two circle touch-areas, no joy-stick. Bad, bad, bad.

Have you noticed that, at least as far as I know, majority if not all PC games that place you in control of a character never have you manage the characters movement by the mouse? It's always WASD and maybe Q and E as well, because managing the character's movement in the 3D space is easier with buttons and then easier than that with a thumb-stick, which is why you see their implementation in the N64 and PSX era, where we first started getting games that played in a 3D environment.

 

Now, I'm not saying that the touch-pad would be completely useless, most things have their uses, but it's like Nintendo's recent attempts at innovating the controller, it's neat for some things but overall it's just ridiculous and pointless and we'll always go back to the same design because it works, simple as that.

 

Surely setting the trackpad into d-pad or analog stick mode would alleviate that concern?

[BallGum]

I personally don't need any analog sticks.  To me the Steam controller would be used because of the trackpads.  I already have a gamepad with 2 analog sticks.

 

So when it comes to it, I think either they put 2 sticks on so people can still use it as a standard Xbox controller which most controller-centric games are designed for, or leave both sticks off completely.  Then again, I am projecting and anticipating what other people will think, and I think that just 1 stick satisfies very few people.

 

I agree, I'd rather that there was a D-pad there. My main point was regarding the comparison to a 3DS, which I don't feel is a fair comparison.

[Hidden Orange]

True, but a normal controller would work a lot better then that. 

 

how so?

With the current layout basically having 3 analog sticks - 1 thumbstick and 2 trackpads that can function as analog sticks -, 4 buttons,  4 shoulder buttons, and the 2 start/select/back/forward buttons, it's missing the usual 8 buttons on the face from replacing the d-pad for a thumbstick. When playing old games or games with lots of menus like Final Fantasy, using an analog stick always felt weird to me since you have to move the stick per action or move it until it is on whatever action instead of pushing the button the amount of times.

 

Really fast-paced hack 'n' slash games require precise inputs which is why people can spam Style changes, Jump Cancels, etc. in Devil May Cry 3 and 4. Feedback from pressing a button is sometimes really important to people along with always knowing that "down" is one button instead of memorizing the placement on the track pad or pulling the thumbstick down.

 

Old school platformers move characters unit by unit based on button presses and analog sticks can sometimes be awkward for that - whoever thought platforming in Demon's Souls and Dark Souls is a good idea is freaking *****.

 

Likewise, arcade sticks are really direct on what direction is being used and are "clicky" to give feedback. Analog sticks are sometimes loose and thumbs don't have that much control compared to a hand. Sure, people can play competitively on mouse & keyboard or pad in fighting games, but the arcade stick and button layout allows players to have as much control on direction and access to all the necessary buttons - they're spaced out more than keys and buttons on pads.

 

Basically, specialized controllers will usually top everything. Mouse & keyboard are great for games requiring precise and rapid movement. So, first-person shooters, MMOs, RPGs, RTSs, etc. that rely on quick and precise spatial movement. Arcade sticks are geared towards fighters and old school games that require precise inputs. So, fighting games, retro games, etc. Vehicle controllers are explanatory. Gamepads are jacks of all trades, though some, like the NES controller can substitute for arcade sticks since back then, almost every game was based on precise inputs. Using a NES-like controller for shooters would be suicide, but slower-paced games (that have first-person shooter elements) like Metal Gear Solid and Ocarina of Time are still workable. And then there are people who play Halo using Guitar Hero controllers. Now, tons of games are shooters and Valve seems to be targeting this with their controller since it's much more precise than a regular one, but not as precise as a mouse & keyboard. The drawback is that it might not be great for games that aren't shooters, MMOs, RPGs, RTSs, etc.

[NICKT]

Surely setting the trackpad into d-pad or analog stick mode would alleviate that concern?

 

D-Pad I could see working, but then I'd rather just have the buttons because it's a more clear representation of the buttons rather than a big square/circle technically divided but not visually so, when you're playing a game you're not looking at the controller, which is why they have physically distinctive buttons and sticks, it's why I prefer the playstation controller in this regard because it's D-pad has always been more physically distinctive than the xbox controller, but in this day and age we barely rely on the d-pad for major commands, more or less just things like menu operation and the like.

 

Also, d-pad is a horrible way of controlling a character in a 3D space, which is why we got the thumbstick, so setting it into D-pad mode won't help in that regard.

 

Either way, this controller is pointless.

I have an xbox controller for games that are easier to play with a stick and a smaller sublet of buttons and if it requires more dexterity, precision and more input capability on my end, I'll go with a keyboard and mouse. This just seems a weird attempt at trying to either make a controller that can replace one's keyboard and mouse, or it takes the place in-between a controller and keyboard/mouse, either scenario just renders the controller moot.

[TheProfosist]

Grab a controller that has a thumb-stick. Now, tilt it slightly to the left, let go and watch as it returns to the middle.

Now, tilt it further to the left, then watch as it returns to the middle when you let go.

Neutral point, mouses and touch-pads don't have this aspect. You might even often find that you'll generate your own neutral point on your mouse-pad, potentially.

 

Originally this controller had two circle touch-areas, no joy-stick. Bad, bad, bad.

Have you noticed that, at least as far as I know, majority if not all PC games that place you in control of a character never have you manage the characters movement by the mouse? It's always WASD and maybe Q and E as well, because managing the character's movement in the 3D space is easier with buttons and then easier than that with a thumb-stick, which is why you see their implementation in the N64 and PSX era, where we first started getting games that played in a 3D environment.

 

Now, I'm not saying that the touch-pad would be completely useless, most things have their uses, but it's like Nintendo's recent attempts at innovating the controller, it's neat for some things but overall it's just ridiculous and pointless and we'll always go back to the same design because it works, simple as that.

how many times do yo utake your finger off and let it return on it own when your playing? if it something your actively doing its almost never and likely in between games or during a cut scene or something. Why couldnt it return on its own, its digital. What if any time you took your thumb off it just returned there far faster than any analog stick could? Ok to try walking with just WASD. You actually have less control with WASD than a analog stick because you have no control over speed no anything more precise than 45 degree angles of movement. Also the main point of the trackpad is not necessarily to emulate a analog stick its to make as many games as possibly playable through a controller. Manay of there games likely arnt analog stick friendly.

Still confused as to why they would even put a analog stick on there when they have something that already fulfills that purpose, especially at the cost of the dpad. This is why I dont think its a true new design and probably some prototype. heck it may be even just to show people on hand on the device how the two compare.

[TheProfosist]

D-Pad I could see working, but then I'd rather just have the buttons because it's a more clear representation of the buttons rather than a big square/circle technically divided but not visually so, when you're playing a game you're not looking at the controller, which is why they have physically distinctive buttons and sticks, it's why I prefer the playstation controller in this regard because it's D-pad has always been more physically distinctive than the xbox controller, but in this day and age we barely rely on the d-pad for major commands, more or less just things like menu operation and the like.

 

Also, d-pad is a horrible way of controlling a character in a 3D space, which is why we got the thumbstick, so setting it into D-pad mode won't help in that regard.

 

Either way, this controller is pointless.

I have an xbox controller for games that are easier to play with a stick and a smaller sublet of buttons and if it requires more dexterity, precision and more input capability on my end, I'll go with a keyboard and mouse. This just seems a weird attempt at trying to either make a controller that can replace one's keyboard and mouse, or it takes the place in-between a controller and keyboard/mouse, either scenario just renders the controller moot.

Except when your trying to get people into the living room. Using a keyboard and mouse on a couch is no easy or elegant in the least. This is especially when you take in to consideration that people who have possibly never gamed on a PC before will be picking these up and trying to play games designed initially with the PC in mind.

[killers993]

Except when your trying to get people into the living room. Using a keyboard and mouse on a couch is no easy or elegant in the least. This is especially when you take in to consideration that people who have possibly never gamed on a PC before will be picking these up and trying to play games designed initially with the PC in mind.

 

Buy a 360 controller. A lot cheaper then buying another system that does less. 

[NICKT]

Except when your trying to get people into the living room. Using a keyboard and mouse on a couch is no easy or elegant in the least. This is especially when you take in to consideration that people who have possibly never gamed on a PC before will be picking these up and trying to play games designed initially with the PC in mind.

 

Either way, this controller is pointless.

I have an xbox controller for games that are easier to play with a stick and a smaller sublet of buttons and if it requires more dexterity, precision and more input capability on my end, I'll go with a keyboard and mouse. This just seems a weird attempt at trying to either make a controller that can replace one's keyboard and mouse, or it takes the place in-between a controller and keyboard/mouse, either scenario just renders the controller moot.

[Misanthrope]

Honestly I think Valve is really dropping the ball here. No I don't really know shit about controllers: like others have mentioned the last time I seriously used a controller for all my gaming was way back in the early 90s when I used to own a SNES.

No, my beef is that they keep fucking changing the design this late into the game. We already got hints of at least 1 Hardware manufacturer pissed at their stupid "Valve time" BS and deciding "fuck it, we're going live this holiday seasons Steam OS and controllers or not" and many more will probably be thinking the same: "Really? ANOTHER fucking major redesign? Just settle on a fucking controller and hurry the fuck up with the Steam OS release candidate so we can start selling all this hardware"

 

Remember that unlike consumers, Hardware manufacturers do not have to or want to wait for them to take their sweet ass time, they can't just say "Well, looks like holiday 2016 or early 2017 guys, go back to your homes there will be no paychecks until then" they just have to move the fuck on and start releasing their products with or without Valve, specially with Directx 12 and Mantle already lurking around the corner.

[TheProfosist]

Buy a 360 controller. A lot cheaper then buying another system that does less.

It will be available separately and it will ship with every steam box.

[TheProfosist]

Honestly I think Valve is really dropping the ball here. No I don't really know shit about controllers: like others have mentioned the last time I seriously used a controller for all my gaming was way back in the early 90s when I used to own a SNES.

No, my beef is that they keep fucking changing the design this late into the game. We already got hints of at least 1 Hardware manufacturer pissed at their stupid "Valve time" BS and deciding "fuck it, we're going live this holiday seasons Steam OS and controllers or not" and many more will probably be thinking the same: "Really? ANOTHER fucking major redesign? Just settle on a fucking controller and hurry the fuck up with the Steam OS release candidate so we can start selling all this hardware"

 

Remember that unlike consumers, Hardware manufacturers do not have to or want to wait for them to take their sweet ass time, they can't just say "Well, looks like holiday 2016 or early 2017 guys, go back to your homes there will be no paychecks until then" they just have to move the fuck on and start releasing their products with or without Valve, specially with Directx 12 and Mantle already lurking around the corner.

I agree. Companies have had steam boxes ready since prior to CES. Though even if they had this done I still think the major issue is going to be the library that are available on linux/SteamOS.

I dont hink its as major as the first redesign it just looks like they swapped the Dpad for a analog stick. I really have a feeling thats not whats going to be sold though as it seems redundant.

[Misanthrope]

I agree. Companies have had steam boxes ready since prior to CES. Though even if they had this done I still think the major issue is going to be the library that are available on linux/SteamOS.

I dont hink its as major as the first redesign it just looks like they swapped the Dpad for a analog stick. I really have a feeling thats not whats going to be sold though as it seems redundant.

 

Even if it's a minor redesign, it IS a redesign so it does implies a few weeks of further delays to code for it on games and the steam os itself. Remember that we're talking very small windows of high sales for manufacturers so even just a bit can really fuck up their plans.

But in the interest of full disclosure: I think this can easily be solved by just removing the controller requirement out of the steam boxes and just focusing on Steam OS. You're right about the less than stellar game support but without a major push like suddenly having a massive influx of new Linux boxes not many devs will feel enough incentives to start porting over to OpenGL and creating Linux installers and such. And more importantly, AMD and Nvidia will also do not feel pressured to release some actually decent motherfucking Linux drivers already and much less when it comes to the abyssal feature parity for them.

If everything is just being held back by a stupid fucking controller, yeah just let manufacturers have the option to just ship their boxes with either this:

 

Or even better this:

 

[EChondo]

Would have liked a dpad instead of the thumbstick...we already have two "thumbsticks" on the controller already, why add a third?

 

Not really liking the design now...

[PortentousLad]

Blasphemy! But funny

[TheProfosist]

Even if it's a minor redesign, it IS a redesign so it does implies a few weeks of further delays to code for it on games and the steam os itself. Remember that we're talking very small windows of high sales for manufacturers so even just a bit can really fuck up their plans.

But in the interest of full disclosure: I think this can easily be solved by just removing the controller requirement out of the steam boxes and just focusing on Steam OS. You're right about the less than stellar game support but without a major push like suddenly having a massive influx of new Linux boxes not many devs will feel enough incentives to start porting over to OpenGL and creating Linux installers and such. And more importantly, AMD and Nvidia will also do not feel pressured to release some actually decent motherfucking Linux drivers already and much less when it comes to the abyssal feature parity for them.

If everything is just being held back by a stupid fucking controller, yeah just let manufacturers have the option to just ship their boxes with either this:

 

Or even better this:

 

the issue still stands then as to how games that are primarily keyboard and mouse oriented would be played from a couch. Also

Have you actually tried gaming with a trackpad in its standard config, aka a mouse. My god is it horrible.

Would have liked a dpad instead of the thumbstick...we already have two "thumbsticks" on the controller already, why add a third?

 

Not really liking the design now...

same which is why im hoping thats a prototype or something for demonstrations or testing or something.

[Misanthrope]

the issue still stands then as to how games that are primarily keyboard and mouse oriented would be played from a couch. Also

Have you actually tried gaming with a trackpad in its standard config, aka a mouse. My god is it horrible.

 

Agreed I don't see the appeal of it myself and if I do use a coach it's standard kb/m for me.

[TheProfosist]

Agreed I don't see the appeal of it myself and if I do use a coach it's standard kb/m for me.

but your sadly not the audience that valve it trying to hit with the steambox (in my opinion).

[Misanthrope]

but your sadly not the audience that valve it trying to hit with the steambox (in my opinion).

 

True, true, that's why I said "full disclaimer" a few posts backs I think most controls are inferior and clearly not for me. My only real criticism is that they're either taking far too long or jumped the gun quite a bit and shouldn't have announced all of this in 2013 when it's looking like 2015 to 16 at the earliest.

 

[Yummychickenblue]

At this point they may as well use an N64 controller.

[TheProfosist]

True, true, that's why I said "full disclaimer" a few posts backs I think most controls are inferior and clearly not for me. My only real criticism is that they're either taking far too long or jumped the gun quite a bit and shouldn't have announced all of this in 2013 when it's looking like 2015 to 16 at the earliest.

I agree with you there but in my opinion the second year of the next gen consoles in when they should be out other wise competing will be hard.

[Windows98SE]

I honestly don't think the Steam Box will ever take off. I feel SteamOS has a lot more traction than a Steam console/controller would. 

 

I find it interesting that some of you are angry at Valve for redesigning the controller, but you openly admit you haven't used one in years. What difference does that make to you? You probably weren't their intended market and you weren't going to buy one anyway. 

[TheProfosist]

I honestly don't think the Steam Box will ever take off. I feel SteamOS has a lot more traction than a Steam console/controller would. 

 

I find it interesting that some of you are angry at Valve for redesigning the controller, but you openly admit you haven't used one in years. What difference does that make to you? You probably weren't their intended market and you weren't going to buy one anyway.

I see the opposite. I dont see the point of SteamOS unless there is a SteamBox.