Your experience with EVs and are you ready to do the jump.

[QuantumSingularity]

First, let me make one thing clear - i am an avid car-guy. I love V8s, V10s and V12s. I currently own a 2003 4.2L V8 Audi S6 Avant or Wagon for the NA peeps and it's by far the daily car i love the most. However, i took it in for a completely out-of-bay engine service, along with manual gearbox swap and rebuild, complete chassis respray and some other tweaks, which will take well over a month and in the mean time the only car they could've given me to roam around in... was a 2021 Huyndai Ioniq 5. At work i also have to drive an EV (Renault Kangoo Z.E) and after all the info initially shared, one might think i am bias, but i swear i gave the EVs every chance i could. For a whole week now, since the last Friday i have been driving those 2 EVs and nothing else. You can say i unwillingly took part in the EV experience program and had some thoughts and questions. First will share my experience and views and then the questions.

The first really frustrating thing i experienced is the complete lies about the range. I mean i knew they were overselling that stuff way above what's actually humanly possible, but now i wonder how on earth aren't these people getting sued for false advertising. The best i managed to get out of the claimed 384km range was actually 255km with a full 58kWh battery. This was done by driving like a 90-yo granny, w/o AC or any other sort of electronics turned on. With my company car it's even worse, but with it i simply can't drive as a snail in Eco mode and have to move along at a descent, although still perfectly legal pace, which wears its 33kWh battery in just 80-100km.

 

Then we get to the other frustrating part - the charging. I live in Bulgaria and we don't have insane infrastructure for EVs, but it's not that bad either. Still it's extremely slow and the advertised charging speeds are just pure BS and that's only when the charging stations actually work, because very often they are out of service. On top of that are the rates. The greedy bastards, who own the charging stations found another way of skinning you alive aside from the already ludicrously expensive rate of €0.82 /kWh - most have added additional €0.05 on average (in some extreme cases it's €0.20) FOR EVERY MINUTE OVER a certain amount of time (most often 2 or 4 hours). So if i keep the car there for the whole 9 hours it requires to be charged, in addition to the €46 for the electricity itself, i have to pay another €10-€21 for the time it took the car to charge itself. €67 in total just so i can drive less than 250km... This is already twice as expensive as my V8 family estate, which has twice the power... when it runs on petrol. However it's LPG converted and with €67 worth of LPG, it can easily run 900km and if am smooth on the throttle i can stretch it easily over 1000km... Even in city traffic alone it's well above 600km. Yes, if i could charge it at home with my regular consumer rate of €0.36 it's much better, but i live on the 5th floor and my parking spot is 200 meters from my balcony, so impossible to charge at home, plus at the home power it will take 14+ hours.

 

When i add to that the constant anxiety when the battery drops under 25% "will i be able to get back home", the endless hair raising moments with humans... i mean pedestrians who blissfully unaware of my presence launch themselves at the car, because they can't hear it coming or they stay in front talking, thinking i am parked, while i just try get out of a parking spot and so on...

 

So the questions are: how is the experience it your country. I am well aware it will be massively different from region to region, but still i can't wrap my mind around the where, aside from the US, these things make sense. Then, have the people who now own EVs have previously experienced a car of a similar price tag, because i really get the notion that the ecstatic EV owners, who are so happy with their car, have never actually experience a brand new car before or a car of a higher tier and are unaware that comfort of that or higher level has been on the market for decades. I guess my biggest question is why would you chose such an overpriced vehicle, when they are not cheaper to run, are less practical and add a ton more additional burden on the owner??? Am i looking at this the wrong way? What am i missing in that picture, because i certainly can't see the advantages compared to even old ICE cars, let alone modern ones with super efficient engines and transmissions.  

 

 

[ARandomPerson]

     Almost all EVs have sufficient range, and the price to fully charge one would put any gas-powered car to shame. The legroom is also much better due to the lower profile of the motor, which gives more storage because of the frunk. I am in the US, by the way, and the Tax credit is also a good incentive. My experience was with the rental of a KIA Niro EV.

     The two main problems with EVs are battery replacement and charging infrastructure. They are suitable for people who just use a car to commute and have sufficient AC charging at home. The problem is there is not enough fast-charging system for general out-and-about travel, and one in four are nonfunctional for those that exist. Tesla making their charge port non-proprietary is a good start, but it is not enough. Add to the fact that not everyone can do AC charging. Not because of needing 240v (you will get away with 120v if you have 11 or so hours at home, like sleeping) but because of living in an apartment that does not support car charging or having the dumbest of HOA rules. The real cause of charging anxiety, in my opinion, is the lack of chargers because almost everyone in a gas-powered car will run on empty at times; the difference is there is much more of an abundance of gas stations.

     What is worse is the battery replacement. No battery warranty will cover a 10-year-old car, but they still need to be running. Battery replacements that cost more than the car itself or pretty darn close(I'm looking at you, Chevy Bolt) or batteries that don't exist anymore are a massive turnoff to people who can't afford to buy a new car every couple of years(not to mention the environmental impact). For an EV to have less of an effect, they must be on the road for much longer than most people think(like 8-10 years). Most people on a budget will not experience the charging problem due to not going that often, but they will notice the battery costing 20k to be able to drive again. They are never buying new or almost new cars; they are buying cars five or more years old.

     If those two problems are solved, EVs will have a larger footprint. Battery replacement should be solved first because it will increase the number of people who can use an EV.

[vf1000ride]

No real experience and not ready to purchase.  The range provided by current battery tech fits into some peoples lives but not for mine.  I take too many long trips per year that the range on an electric would cause me to add an extra two days to my travel time just to allow for charging.  That alone keeps me from considering one.

[atxcyclist]

I use my car for three things: Rainy days, times where I need to buy something large (groceries, a TV, etc.), and for long trips. I bought my car new in 2005 and just haven’t felt inclined to replace it yet, and I usually daily a motorcycle so the car is not getting many miles these days. Perhaps by the time I actually need a new car decent EVs will actually be cheap that I’d buy one for the minimal car miles I’d need it for.

 

I would not expect to get 20+ years out of an EV like my current car is heading for, so it would be a purchase that I know won’t have the durability of a traditional engine-powered vehicle.

[seanondemand]

I've spent a few weeks driving a Model 3 rental, and my father in law had a Lexus NX450+ plug-in hybrid (the Lexus version of the Toyota Rav4 Prime) which I ended up being the primary driver on for a summer. 

 

My understanding is that the vast majority of drivers only take their cars out for less than 50km on a round trip journey, and in my experience, that's what these are particularly great for - I just plugged my cars in in the driveway to top off the battery and never really ran into issues with range just off of that (and the estimates the cars were giving me were usually what I was expecting), and when I did the math, it cost around a third of what my normal ICE car (2020 Ford Explorer ST) would use in gas for those journeys (in alberta, energy's pretty cheap)

 

Also, the odd long journey I did in the Tesla, I used superchargers, which worked pretty flawlessly, and was still pretty cheap, so I can't really speak to what an Electrify charger would be like. 

 

For a second car, I'd definitely consider a pure EV, or a PHEV. In 2024, in Alberta, I think I'd still feel I needed something with a gas engine for the odd really long journey we take to Edmonton or Saskatoon in crappy (-30c) weather. 

[BrandonLatzig]

I have seen plenty (though it might just be the same guy honestly..) around my area, I am curious, but also like
I want a car, not a truck and not a tesla, so...what do I have?

[Donut417]

8 hours ago, QuantumSingularity said:

but still i can't wrap my mind around the where, aside from the US, these things make sense.

How do they make sense in the US? We have a shit power grid. In my area I have only seen two charging stations and one of those was 6 Tesla chargers in a Meijer's parking lot.

 

The only way Id buy an EV is A) It takes no more than 5 minuets to fully charge the battery. B) There were a plethora of charging stations around. Because the only way I can charge at home is to stretch out a long extension cord off the back porch to my car, thats only going to be 120v/15a, your not going to fill a battery in 5 minuets charging it like that.

[QuantumSingularity]

3 hours ago, Donut417 said:

How do they make sense in the US? We have a shit power grid. In my area I have only seen two charging stations and one of those was 6 Tesla chargers in a Meijer's parking lot.

 

The only way Id buy an EV is A) It takes no more than 5 minuets to fully charge the battery. B) There were a plethora of charging stations around. Because the only way I can charge at home is to stretch out a long extension cord off the back porch to my car, thats only going to be 120v/15a, your not going to fill a battery in 5 minuets charging it like that.

It makes sense in the US, because your government is funding the whole thing, constantly keeping Tesla and other EV makers afloat while also providing tax relieves for the buyers, which aren't available anymore here or if they are, are extremely limited, like €1000 or something stupid like that. You have the cheapest car prices as well. A $41k EV like the current Ioniq 5 in the US, costs around €60k with the same spec here in the EU. Another example - the new Ford E-Transit which over there starts from $51k, here it STARTS from €81k or $89k. Yes, it's a work vehicle, but it costs luxury-limousine money.

It also makes sense, because you have have a lot of nuclear and coal power and electricity is cheap. Some of the peeps i play online with said they pay $0.11/kWh... I've never seen rates this low since i started paying my own bills at the age of 17. As far as i know LPG isn't a thing over there as well, so that's another factor. Across Europe it was a huge deal some 10 years ago and it is still by far the cheapest way of transport. It's much cheaper than diesel, cheaper than petrol, cheaper than electric and the best part is most old-style hybrids, like the old Lexus RH450 could be converted to LPG as well and give out consumption rates close to those of 3-cylinder diesel grocery getters. One of my co-workers has such hybrid Lexus and in entirely urban environment it costs him on average €4.29/100km. Absolutely impossible to come even close to that with any other form of propulsion, let alone in a vehicle of that size.

[Donut417]

4 hours ago, QuantumSingularity said:

You have the cheapest car prices as well. A $41k EV like the current Ioniq 5 in the US,

Did you get that price from the MSRP or from the dealership? Because those numbers are going to be different between the two and the dealership prices are what your paying. Also $41K is not cheap. Currently the average age of a car on the road in the US is 12.5 years, because cars are not affordable.  Not to mention all the people with student loan debt, kinda have to pay that back. I think the total is around 2 Trillion dollars. Average student laon payment a month is $503, that doesnt take in to account rent, insurance (which I hear is higher on EV's), health care, food, etc.

 

4 hours ago, QuantumSingularity said:

It also makes sense, because you have have a lot of nuclear and coal power and electricity is cheap. Some of the peeps i play online with said they pay $0.11/kWh..

Due to climate change rules they are trying to kill off all the coal power plants. Most nuclear plants were built in the 60s and are slated to be decommissioned. New nuclear power plants are not being build because people are scared of nuclear power.  We also get power from natural gas, but fracking has caused contamination in drinking water in those areas, you pretty much can light the water on fire as its coming out of the tap.

 

According to our power provider off peak rates are 16.73 cents per kWh, peak rates October to May are 18.09 cents per kWH and June thru September peak rates are 22.40 cents per kWh. Thats after two recent increases, many due to EV's and them making the grid more reliable. They now want a 3rd increase. Power in parts of the city I live in goes out all the time, I see residence bitching on Facebook about it.

 

Further more many people dont have a way to charge. You live in an apartment? You're fucked. I know in my direct area, many houses are older, and might not have the power budget. While you can upgrade your electrical service, both the municipality and DTE are going to require you have a licensed and trained electrician to do it. The boomers pushed many of the young in to college so we have a lack of skilled trades men in this country as a result. Electricians are not cheap.

 

 

 

[Motifator]

First of all you're from Bulgaria, that means your charging infrastructure is probably garbage.

Well secondly, you're running your S6 on LPG. LPG tends to be much cheaper than gas regardless of where you're from, pretty much.

As for the range, obviously you got the lower end model of the Ioniq 6 with the single engine and the reduced range, cause it's a loaner car... clearly they're not going to give you a high end vehicle. The dual motor versions get significantly more range, however I wouldn't say the Ioniq 6 exactly has a lot of range... even though it's great drag coefficient. Chinese counterparts typically get more range. On top of my head the Xpeng and the Zeeker are already rated around 700 km range on a good day (92 kWh battery pack).

I'd say the bigger problem with EVs is them being like child's toys. Most of the EVs like the MG4 have little actually put on the design, making them soulless as toy cars. It's only on the high end the EVs are really showing their quality and if you want an EV with the exact same quality level as a high end executive sedan, you probably want something really expensive. Like a Maserati Folgore.

EVs still make a bit more sense towards those that are already keeping their older ICE cars. Meaning having 2 cars, cause then you won't have to worry about range as much...

[Rocketdog2112]

4 hours ago, QuantumSingularity said:

It makes sense in the US, because your government is funding the whole thing,

When the government has to step in, that's a sign that EV's are not wanted by large by the public.

24 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

you pretty much can light the water on fire as its coming out of the tap.

 

 

 

 

Maybe if you get your water from a well.

[Doobeedoo]

Not looking to buy one anytime soon, or car in general.  I love fast start of them and no noise. Cheaper too charge. But they need to catch up with charging time and range. Infrastructure for sure, need enough chargers and speeds. Price wise charging to not cost so much more then home. Range should be comparable to non EV and also charging speeds really need to increase a lot. 

[Donut417]

14 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Maybe if you get your water from a well.

There are a lot of people who do use wells in the US. Municipal water isnt safe either. Check out what happened in Flint Michigan. If you think thats an isolated thing, its not.

[Rocketdog2112]

1 hour ago, Donut417 said:

There are a lot of people who do use wells in the US. Municipal water isnt safe either. Check out what happened in Flint Michigan. If you think thats an isolated thing, its not.

I happen to work in a municipal water plant, so this is one subject you can't begin to deflect and move the goal posts.

 

Flint was a very isolated incident caused by human error, falsification of tests and records, and lack of proper funding by it's city government to keep up needed upgrades and maintenance.

 

Even so, you won't find flammable water coming out of a water supplied by a municipality.

 

The majority of complaints that rise from municipal water customers is not because of the quality of water leaving the plant. Most if not all issues are caused by decades old infrastructure of underground delivery pipes that that allow contaminates into the treated water as it travels to its destinations.

 

Also, many older households still contain plumbing that is known to contain lead and other carcinogens.

[wanderingfool2]

5 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Flint was a very isolated incident caused by human error and lack of proper funding by it's city government to keep up needing upgrades and maintenance.

...I'll let the highlighted part sink in.  That's exactly the case in a whole lot of places.  Sure it's not necessarily the "norm", but it does happen enough that unsafe water is an "isolated incident".  But lets name a few that have been in the news; Jacksonville Florida, San Diego [chemicals exceeded EPA], North Las Vegas [exceed health guidelines], Omaha [4 chemicals above the legal limit],

 

There are plenty of places/people who still rely on well water, which was the general sentiment anyways.

 

8 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

I happen to work in a municipal water plant, so this is one subject you can't begin to deflect and move the goal posts.

It wasn't moving the goal posts...you literally brought up people using wells in a way that seemed to imply no one does.  His statement was that people end up using well water quite a bit.

 

 

Anyways, to the OP.

 

19 hours ago, QuantumSingularity said:

The greedy bastards, who own the charging stations found another way of skinning you alive aside from the already ludicrously expensive rate of €0.82 /kWh - most have added additional €0.05 on average (in some extreme cases it's €0.20) FOR EVERY MINUTE OVER a certain amount of time (most often 2 or 4 hours).

The time fee is to get people out of there, the spaces are limited they don't want people to stay there for much longer than they need to.  That is why they have a larger penalty.

 

It's the generally thing with fast charging 20 - 80% is fast, but 80-100 is slow which is why they try pushing people away from doing that last 20%.

 

16 hours ago, vf1000ride said:

No real experience and not ready to purchase.  The range provided by current battery tech fits into some peoples lives but not for mine.  I take too many long trips per year that the range on an electric would cause me to add an extra two days to my travel time just to allow for charging.  That alone keeps me from considering one.

This is a totally understandable one and a valid concern. [Along with not charging at home, although I am going to assume you can charge from home in my next sentence]

 

Although just would like to mention this because not as many people consider this when doing "long trips".  The key is start the day at 100% charge, then first washroom break stop/lunch stop do a "top up".  Actually during a food break, you can recover to 80% charge [15 minutes for 20 - 80%].

 

Not saying it's the most ideal, but just saying some of the "long trips" can be mitigated sometimes by just a touch of planning.  With that said, it is no way comparable to an ICE; and I understand that [and some road trips aren't even capable with some EV's still]

[Rocketdog2112]

2 minutes ago, wanderingfool2 said:

...I'll let the highlighted part sink in.  That's exactly the case in a whole lot of places.  Sure it's not necessarily the "norm", but it does happen enough that unsafe water is an "isolated incident".  But lets name a few that have been in the news; Jacksonville Florida, San Diego [chemicals exceeded EPA], North Las Vegas [exceed health guidelines], Omaha [4 chemicals above the legal limit],

 

You have to have an understanding of the slightest amount of PPM (parts per million) that it takes to trigger a notice of violation.

 

The majority of these violations in no way constitute a true health hazard to the public water supply or the community.

Water treatment plants get them all the time, and nearly all of the notice of violations were from water samples taken from nine months to over a year ago.

 

It's amazing how the public receives these notices of violation and fail to completely read and comprehend them and instantly assume their water supply is contaminated.

[Donut417]

35 minutes ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

he majority of complaints that rise from municipal water customers is not because of the quality of water leaving the plant. Most if not all issues are caused by decades old infrastructure of underground delivery pipes that that allow contaminates into the treated water as it travels to its destinations.

How is that different then contamination in a well? Contamination is contamination. If cities cant afford to replace the mains which is what led to the issues in Flint in the first place then its not any safer then a well. Cities and smaller municipalities in large parts of the US are broke.

[Spotty]

>Discussion about experiences with electric vehicles
>Arguing over water quality

 

Stay on topic.

[Lurking]

EV  probably will have less repair cost than an Audi ....

 

Here in the US we are moving to the Tesla plug. Whoever still buys an outdated EV with the old plug will look really silly in a few years trying to get their betamax video tapes. 2025 ever EV will have the NACS (Tesla) plug. 

 

Most EV are garbage and experimental. I think only Tesla has mature technology and a good track record. Better thermal management etc  Hyundai/Kia are probably getting their in their NEXT generation EV. The rest like Ford and GM and VW are just disasters long term (I guess that applies to their ICE cars as well). Not sure if Rivian will survive or ever sell a mass market car. I'm ignoring luxury vehicles for now, if you buy luxury you shouldn't be cheap enough to worry about gas or electricity cost 

 

If you can't charge cheaply at home, you probably are better off buying a Prius or similar. Long distance driving really depends on where you are. Again, here in the US Tesla is best. All the other networks have issues with apps and equipment down all the time. 

 

I hope this improves 2025 with every EV using the NACS plug. And no, those stupid adapters they sell for the obsolete EV don't count since I'm not traveling with adapters and crap for the next 15 years.

[Donut417]

4 minutes ago, Lurking said:

f you can't charge cheaply at home, you probably are better off buying a Prius or similar.

In my opinion they should be pushing Hybrids and EV's instead of just EV's. I for one would be comfortable with a hybrid. But for some an EV could make a bit of sense. I think many feel they are being pushed in to a choice of an EV and thats why there's soo much push back. For those who are not American many citizens of this country feel that when a choice is being force upon them its government overreach and taking of freedoms, etc.

 

6 minutes ago, Lurking said:

Most EV are garbage and experimental. I think only Tesla has nature technology and a good track record.

Tesla does have quality issues. Maybe not much on the drive train but there are quality issues. Granted I do think Tesla is a leader in EV's but thats their bread and butter. Most EV's I see driving around these parts are Tesla's. Other car makers are playing catch up at this point, its not going well.

 

11 minutes ago, Lurking said:

I hope this improves 2025 with every EV using the NACS plug.

This to me was the biggest hurdle. Why did we have multiple different plugs? Are there multiple different gas pump standard? If they standardized this earlier we probably would have more charging infrastructure.

[Motifator]

Yeah Tesla EVs are not even that great, lol. I think they sell more Model Y and Model 3 than anything and they come with cookie cutter quality all across the board with just a single display up the center and a lot of cheap plastic. I'd easily put Tesla below even those vehicles that are built on ICE platforms, such as i4. Which is actually a good EV FWIW. 

The only thing they seem to have gotten right is the Supercharging, but if you have a couple years older model, they charge like turtle.

As for the Audi the OP has, it's a 2003 S6... I'm supposing it's reliable enough that the OP took the plunge to LPG convert it... older Audi vehicles were far more reliable than late models.

[Lurking]

27 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

In my opinion they should be pushing Hybrids and EV's instead of just EV's. I for one would be comfortable with a hybrid. But for some an EV could make a bit of sense. I think many feel they are being pushed in to a choice of an EV and thats why there's soo much push back. For those who are not American many citizens of this country feel that when a choice is being force upon them its government overreach and taking of freedoms, etc.

 

Tesla does have quality issues. Maybe not much on the drive train but there are quality issues. Granted I do think Tesla is a leader in EV's but thats their bread and butter. Most EV's I see driving around these parts are Tesla's. Other car makers are playing catch up at this point, its not going well.

 

This to me was the biggest hurdle. Why did we have multiple different plugs? Are there multiple different gas pump standard? If they standardized this earlier we probably would have more charging infrastructure.

Tesla have some fit and finish issues early in the model run. But they seem to improve on that. They are leader in new manufacturing technology (giga casting etc ). You probably have to get used to the no-buttons UI. But their battery, thermal management and drivetrains are solid and efficient with millions of cars already in use without major problems. Those are the areas all the traditional car makers haven't proven (more to the contrary in fact). 

 

The CCS was a design by committee and is a huge bulking plug. And the public chargers for those are very questionable. Tesla basically looked at that, decided it is crap and developed their own 2-wire plug that is sleek. And their chargers work 99.99% of the time and you just plug in and it charges. The others require apps, and chargers are out of order. Finally they all came to their senses and starting 2025 use the Tesla standard. Pity on the people that bought (and are still buying) CCS cars. I don't know why you buy an expensive obsolete EV today when you can wait a few more months for the 2025 model cars with the proper plug. 

 

That whole government mileage, subsidy, and other stuff is totally screwed up. In my State they have a hybrid penalty of $75 a year. So the guy driving a huge rolling coal pickup truck pays $75 less in annual registration than a small hybrid. And they should stop that stupid $7500 tax credit. That just raises EV prices and puts all kind if manufacturing and supply chain restrictions on cars. Plus that 100% tariff on Chinese EV that is designed to give those traditional loser carmakers a leg up. Let the market decide what works best.

[Needfuldoer]

I've daily-driven a Volt for 6 years, and it's been great. It still gets over 50 miles of EV range and 40 MPG on gas. For me, charging it at home costs the same as if gas was $1.50 a gallon. On electricity I get about the same "MPGe" as a Model 3. (Yes I know MPGe is a shitty metric.) It's a shame GM threw the entire Voltec design out in 2019; they should've used it in an entire lineup of midsize hybrids. (The only other vehicle they used it in was the Malibu hybrid.) I've said many times that the second-gen Volt as it went to market shouldn't exist. It should have been a plug-in hybrid Equinox; nobody was buying small hatchbacks in 2016.

 

For most peoples' driving, a plug-in hybrid makes a lot of sense. They just couldn't figure out how to market the concept.

 

Still, I'm getting that itch where I want more. I don't go on road trips, and I can charge at home, so 200 miles of range is probably more than I'll ever actually need. I've been keeping an ear to the ground on the Polestar 2 and upcoming Equinox EV. (I don't need a huge truck or full size SUV, so the "Mustang", Blazer EV, F150 Lightning, and Honda/Acura are out.)

[Donut417]

6 minutes ago, Lurking said:

ybrid penalty of $75 a year. So the guy driving a huge rolling coal pickup truck pays $75 less in annual registration than a small hybrid.

Thats because that guy is paying less gas tax. Gas tax fixes an maintains roads, at least thats what they tell us. Personally I think that the power company should have to install a separate meter at everyone home that has an EV/Plug in Hybrid that is for charging the car. Then the state can just charge its road use tax based on the meter. The power company can charge higher rates for charging while leaving the rates for powering homes alone.

 

 

[Lurking]

3 minutes ago, Donut417 said:

Thats because that guy is paying less gas tax. Gas tax fixes an maintains roads, at least thats what they tell us. Personally I think that the power company should have to install a separate meter at everyone home that has an EV/Plug in Hybrid that is for charging the car. Then the state can just charge its road use tax based on the meter. The power company can charge higher rates for charging while leaving the rates for powering homes alone.

 

 

That separate meter would make sense.

 

Damage to roads increases to the 4th power of weight per axle. So if that truck weighs twice, it will cause 16 times the damage a car does. So that annual registration fee should account for weight as well if we pretend it is related to road repairs.

 

Hybrid still pays gas tax. It is just using gas more efficiently. So they basically punish efficient engineering.