I guess I'll be keeping my Logitech G15 for another 18 years :D

[JRMBelgium]

And everything still works, software included! Now THAT's value.

But Logitech in 2024...jeezz....

[manikyath]

i mean.. that's not entirely a honest comparison, because mechanical switches cost a lot more than rubberdomes.

 

on that note.. i have a G110 and a G512, and the G110 is in near new shape, the G512 is worn way down already.. quality has changed over the years.

[seon123]

You can press any combination of 3 keys on the 2024 without issue. With the G15, you're only ever guaranteed 2 keys at the same time. If you don't need to press more than two keys at the same time, the G15 is fine. But if you, let's say, game, the G15 is just not good. 

 

With that said, Logitech is hilariously behind on mechanical keyboards, and you don't need to cherry pick in order to make it look bad. 

[OddOod]

I mean, the K650 is 50$MSRP (note that Logi MSRP is wildly high, you can almost always find it for 40% off) and allows all the F keys to be rebound.
 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

200EUR for a generic looking gaming 60% keyboard is pretty rough, even if they used expensive switches. It doesn't look like it has any fancy materials nor construction, unless it has the next generation of hall effect switches with best in class software etc. Aftermarket switches retail between $0.20 and $1.00 per switch, so even with hand-lubed switches that thing should not cost more than 150EUR.

For 200EUR you can get a much better 60% keyboard.

 

However, I do lament the apparent disdain by the wider mechanical and custom keyboard community for proper full-size and beyond boards. Far too few options for nice and unique 100% and above keyboards.

[Senzelian]

2 hours ago, manikyath said:

i mean.. that's not entirely a honest comparison, because mechanical switches cost a lot more than rubberdomes.

Yeah, like at least 3 cents instead of one! 

[saintlouisbagels]

Gaming keyboards back then were insane.

I can't believe they don't make any modern equivalent models - we're already paying $300 for less features! They could charge $400 and gamers wouldn't bat an eye.

[manikyath]

Just now, Senzelian said:

Yeah, like at least 3 cents instead of one! 

not quite..

going trough alibaba listings, bulk pricing on cherry clones are around 20-50 cents.

 

rubberdomes essentially are made as part of the flatflex that connects the switches, and the rest of it is injection molded stuff.

 

past that those 'classic' backlit keyboards had maybe 6 LED's at most, and the modern individual backlit ones have 104 - one for every key. these are separate from the keyswitch by the way.

 

i'm not saying that going from rubberdome to mechanical explains the price, all i'm saying is that the BOM is fundamentally different.

[Senzelian]

4 minutes ago, manikyath said:

20-50 cents.

Logitech won't pay that much. But even at 50ct / switch, we'd be talking about 50€ for a 100 keys. So not even close enough to be relevant.

[manikyath]

Just now, Senzelian said:

Logitech won't pay that much. But even at 50ct / switch, we'd be talking about 50€ for a 100 keys. So not even close enough to be relevant.

hence the rest of my post, which you decided to not quote:

5 minutes ago, manikyath said:

past that those 'classic' backlit keyboards had maybe 6 LED's at most, and the modern individual backlit ones have 104 - one for every key. these are separate from the keyswitch by the way.

 

i'm not saying that going from rubberdome to mechanical explains the price, all i'm saying is that the BOM is fundamentally different.

 

also.. €50 on the BOM is very relevant when comparing to a €70 product.

 

but since you misquoted me, i'll also add that the mechanical individually backlit ones have 208 components to assemble onto the PCB (104 switches, 104 LED's), whereas rubberdomes are "just" pads on the flatflex applied as a graphite coating (essentially the same as soldermask), a spacer, and an injection molded rubber dome sheet.

 

i've had my rubberdome G110 apart a few times for cleaning (it's lasted me well into the era of mechanical keyboard people saying how rubberdomes are too unreliable to even consider.. lol) and it's really impressive how few parts are involved.

for example; the difference in part count between the G15's 18 G-keys, and the G110's 12 G-keys is 6: the 6 keycaps.

if we'd make that same difference for an individually backlit mechanical keyboard, that's 18 without counting any potential extra driver circuitry for the 18 LED channels to be driven (R, G, and B for each of the 6 keys.)

 

you caught me in the middle of attempting to use fever-brain to make a BOM for a side project, and i can tell you from very fresh experience that BOM is a very dangerous thing to get out of control.

the "components to add" may only cost 6 bucks, but the circuitry around them may add 15 more. (these are actually numbers i pulled from before mentioned side project)

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

47 minutes ago, Senzelian said:

Logitech won't pay that much. But even at 50ct / switch, we'd be talking about 50€ for a 100 keys. So not even close enough to be relevant.

Yeah, retail Gateron G Pro 3.0 switches, which are considered to be on-par if not better than Cherry MX, are $22 for 110 when ordering via Keychron or $30 to $35 for 110 when ordered via Gateron directly. That is $0.2 per switch to $0.32, retail directly to end customers. Cherry MX2A switches cost around $45 or $0.41 per switch via Keychron.

 

Now, on Alibaba you can find switches (G Pro 2.0) for as little as $0.15 per switch, if you take more than 50k. You can also find switches for less than that, like $0.1 per switch.

 

However, that doesn't even scratch the surface of how cheap these things can be, since you can find Gateron Brown switches in a 60% keyboard (yes, apparently the whole keyboard) for as little as $9 (MOQ 1000):

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Gateron-Red-Brown-Switch-Mini-Portable_1600686479966.html?spm=a2700.7724857.0.0.2b2261306L350d

59 minutes ago, manikyath said:

i'm not saying that going from rubberdome to mechanical explains the price, all i'm saying is that the BOM is fundamentally different.

I don't think the switches, LEDs or PCB are really making the keyboard 200EUR.

[manikyath]

1 minute ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

I don't think the switches, LEDs or PCB are really making the keyboard 200EUR.

did you read what you quoted? because

1 hour ago, manikyath said:

i'm not saying that going from rubberdome to mechanical explains the price

 

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

1 minute ago, manikyath said:

did you read what you quoted? because

Yes.

In particular this part:

1 hour ago, manikyath said:

all i'm saying is that the BOM is fundamentally different.

And while I get your point that going from rubberdome to mechanical alone cannot explain the difference, the fact that you can get something with PCB, LEDS, switches etc. for $9 apparently (or in that order of magnitude, they might take a loss on that who knows) over a 200EUR keyboard really speaks for itself on how far away from just materials costs we are.

 

Now, to be fair there are a few items that might make the 200EUR board significantly more expensive, like:

• optical switches require a different PCB with potentially more expensive components (light emitters and sensors)
• potentially more complex circuitry to handle the optical switches (unless they behave like open/close switches electrically)
• different microprocessor
• battery
• metal case

But the things discusses so far (switches in particular, and LEDs for lighting) seem to be dirt cheap if you go for quantity.

[manikyath]

1 minute ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Yes.

and yet.. you completely miss the point;

4 hours ago, manikyath said:

that's not entirely a honest comparison

you cant make a comparison on "how expensive logitech keyboards have gotten" based on these two keyboards, because they have a fundamentally different construction. different parts parts, different complex assembly, etc.

 

the big "cost pieces" of the G15 were the LCD, and the piece of acrylic behind the rubberdomes to spread around the light, perhaps you could consider the software too, but the reason why said keyboard is still supported is because logitech's software is essentially universal across all their peripherals.

 

the big "cost pieces" of the mechanical are the part cost, pick&place machine cost, and potential failure rate of adding over 200 parts to your design.

 

it's sort of like comparing the cost of a 2006 nissan sunny, to the cost of a 2024 mercedes GLA.

 

oh.. and before you mistake me again.. when i switched away from my G110, i've immediately replaced the missing G keys with a streamdeck. i *was* one of those people who would use the silly features of those old timey logitech keyboards on a daily basis, i'm not defending the idea of removing them.. my only point here is that the comparison being proposed is more shallow than the reality behind it.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

29 minutes ago, manikyath said:

and yet.. you completely miss the point;

5 hours ago, manikyath said:

that's not entirely a honest comparison

you cant make a comparison on "how expensive logitech keyboards have gotten" based on these two keyboards, because they have a fundamentally different construction. different parts parts, different complex assembly, etc.

Maybe not, but you can make a point about how much keyboard you get for the money. Also a big factor in this is what comparable keyboards cost, and that is the main discussion here: is the 200EUR price justifiable for the keyboard you get.

 

And to stay with your analogy, the 2024 Mercedes GLA is not in the picture, that image looks much closer to a Nissan as well. The funny thing is that you cannot even find it in their store, now that I am checking. Which, honestly, makes me think this is just a generic RGB mechanical keyboard off amazon or aliexpress that otherwise sells for $30-$50.

[manikyath]

8 hours ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

Maybe not, but you can make a point about how much keyboard you get for the money. Also a big factor in this is what comparable keyboards cost, and that is the main discussion here: is the 200EUR price justifiable for the keyboard you get.

i mean.. the G15 is a plastic clamshell with rubberdomes,some LED's, and an LCD. those old keyboards have as much deck flex as a wet noodle. make of that pricepoint what you will, but it's made stronger, with more expensive materials, with a more complicated design. you can get a mushy rubberdome for a tenner, compared to that the G15 looks like an overpriced piece of gamer junk.

 

if logitech made a spiritual successor to the G15 today, and it was a rubberdome with a single color RGB control, with as much deck flex as the G15.. even at the $70 pricepoint it would get laughed away like a piece of garbage... because compared to some more modern offerings it really is.

 

on that note.. the corsair K95.. despite my hatred for corsair's software it manages to pack all but the LCD, in a keyboard that's at the same pricepoint as the proposed logitech. so no, i'm not saying the $200 makes sense, i'm saying there's more to the picture.

[Senzelian]

12 hours ago, manikyath said:

which you decided to not quote

Cause it's not relevant at all. You made a claim and I told you that it's not relevant. That's all that happened. Do you not understand how discussions work or are you just butthurt?

 

12 hours ago, manikyath said:

but since you misquoted me

Clearly butthurt.

 

11 hours ago, manikyath said:

and yet.. you completely miss the point;

Very clearly butthurt.

[manikyath]

1 minute ago, Senzelian said:

Cause it's not relevant at all. You made a claim and I told you that it's not relevant. That's all that happened. Do you not understand how discussions work or are you just butthurt?

 

Clearly butthurt.

 

Very clearly butthurt.

much debate, very words.

 

you took one part of my argument and wrote it off as irrelevant, my reply to that was to bring back the part that you either forgot or neglected to consider, and explain how the 'complete package' is relevant for the point made.

 

as for knowing how discussions work.. yes, they arent supposed to contain statements about the topic, often of opposing opinion, trying to use references to prove one side of the discussion correct.

perhaps if you're so convinced about your point you should return with a cost breakdown for how a wireless keyboard with optical switches (alibaba trap: it's not because they say optical that they are optical.) and individual addressible RGB is not any different to make than a rubberdome. just so you dont miss it; i'm not talking about the pricetag itself, i'm saying that these are fundamentally different products. hence the nissan sunny vs mercedes GLA comparison. - i've even went for mercedes because of how overpriced they tend to be.

 

my point in this regard is that:

12 hours ago, manikyath said:

i'm not saying that going from rubberdome to mechanical explains the price, all i'm saying is that the BOM is fundamentally different.

and because of that, this straight forwards price comparison is more shallow than the complete reality of the situation. - in light of your reply i've bothered to check on the pricing of before mentioned logitech keyboard, $200 is the preorder price, so more than likely not what it'll be worth on a shelf of best buy by christmas.

 

yet, you keep arguing as if i'm somehow here stating that the $200 pricepoint is explained by the cost of mechanical keys.

 

i'm here to defend the point i made, not what you decided to make of it.

[GarlicDeliverySystem]

3 hours ago, manikyath said:

on that note.. the corsair K95.. despite my hatred for corsair's software it manages to pack all but the LCD, in a keyboard that's at the same pricepoint as the proposed logitech. so no, i'm not saying the $200 makes sense, i'm saying there's more to the picture.

And this is where people disagree, because there isn't that much.

 

Yes, rubberdomes can be dirt cheap, but so can cheap mechanical ones. Especially smaller boards, like the 60% ones have gotten really affordable recently, and while exact analogues to the K95 don't really exist (somehow the custom keyboard space hates full-size), there are alternatives with better quality at the same or even lower price.

55 minutes ago, manikyath said:

yet, you keep arguing as if i'm somehow here stating that the $200 pricepoint is explained by the cost of mechanical keys.

I would assume that is why:

17 hours ago, manikyath said:

i mean.. that's not entirely a honest comparison, because mechanical switches cost a lot more than rubberdomes.

14 hours ago, manikyath said:

not quite..

going trough alibaba listings, bulk pricing on cherry clones are around 20-50 cents.

 

rubberdomes essentially are made as part of the flatflex that connects the switches, and the rest of it is injection molded stuff.

13 hours ago, manikyath said:

also.. €50 on the BOM is very relevant when comparing to a €70 product.

 

[manikyath]

5 minutes ago, GarlicDeliverySystem said:

 

Yes, rubberdomes can be dirt cheap, but so can cheap mechanical ones. Especially smaller boards, like the 60% ones have gotten really affordable recently, and while exact analogues to the K95 don't really exist (somehow the custom keyboard space hates full-size), there are alternatives with better quality at the same or even lower price.

yes. i completely agree to all of this, but it's beside the point i'm trying to make.

i'm not saying the $200 makes sense, i'm saying that it's the wrong comparison to make.

 

even from logitech there's alternatives with more features at a lower price.

 

in hindsight i expressed it very poorly in the first post, but essentially the G15's construction is amazingly cost-optimized past just the LCD, which is not that much of an addition to cost. whereas the "g pro X 60" (what is that name even..) and other similar mechanical keyboards are much less cost optimized; the bill of materials is far bigger, there's a LOT more pick&place machine to be done.

also, besides the price of "the cheapest keys we can find on alibaba", it can be assumed that optical switches are not "the cheapest keys on alibaba". yes, 50 cents per switch is a very high quote, but likewise 3 cents is a hilareously low quote.

beyond that, per key RGB (which i meant to imply to be included with the first post, but didnt mention.. again, hindsight is 20/20) is a VERY complicated matter. it adds *some* to the parts cost in LED's, it adds a bunch of passives, it adds a lot of complexity to the microcontroller, and probably the biggest "hidden" impact is the complexity of the PCB.

rubberdomes of the day are essentially just a flatflex folded double, to add individually controllable RGB lighting to a keyboard would require some very creative work with WB2812-alike LED's (that's what in aRGB led strips), some very creative trace routing (that costs man-hours in development, that need to be recouped), or multi-layer PCB's.

 

i agree none of this adds up to nearly tripling the price, but that wasnt my point; my point is that rubberdomes are inherently cheaper to manufacture than "what we have come to expect of a premium mechanical keyboard", so the direct comparison in price is not the complete picture.

 

case in point.. the "regular" Pro X is cheaper than the proposed price on the Pro X 60, and the G413 is down at 80 bucks for a lack of individual RGB. => wrong comparison to make.

 

in other words, no, OP should not replace his keyboard with the G Pro X 60 "because 200 bucks makes sense", but if OP wants to compare his big beefy gamer keyboard with a newer release from logitech, there's better products to pick from. its as relevant as comparing the G15 to the K120.

[Doobeedoo]

Meh, this is like comparing old mmo mouse with crap sensor, switches, brick vs modern light simple mouse and say it's better because it has more buttons. You're missing the target audience, most don't want 100%+ size keyboard or mmo mouse, but quality simple ones. TKL for me, 60% or so don't save space really vs functions.

Also not fair compare price wise comparing rubber dome crap to costly new optical switches board. There are better and cheap mech boards that are better than that rubber dome one.

Also people need to realize there are others then just Logi or Razer just saying. Not that they are bud with new stuff but overpriced vs competition offers nowdays.