Fortnite is officially returning to iOS, but not for everyone. New Epic Games Store for iOS as well

[Brooksie359]

4 minutes ago, thevictor390 said:

It's not really about individual people. Yes absolutely people can choose.

But as an entity, the EU believes Apple has too much power. They have the power to ban apps and services, or otherwise exert large influence over them, at a level that rivals the government itself. I'm sure some people are fine with that, but that is the issue at hand.

What are you even talking about? The point is that effectively android provides enough competition to make Apple's control over its own software not considered anticompetitive. If people wanted something so much that it took the vast majority of the marketshare would that be anticompetitive then? Individuals still get to choose what they want and by in large people choose Apple in alot of cases and now that makes apples practices anticompetitive because they have a large market share? That seems dumb to me. 

[thevictor390]

1 minute ago, Brooksie359 said:

What are you even talking about? The point is that effectively android provides enough competition to make Apple's control over its own software not considered anticompetitive. If people wanted something so much that it took the vast majority of the marketshare would that be anticompetitive then? Individuals still get to choose what they want and by in large people choose Apple in alot of cases and now that makes apples practices anticompetitive because they have a large market share? That seems dumb to me. 

What am I even talking about? This. https://commission.europa.eu/strategy-and-policy/priorities-2019-2024/europe-fit-digital-age/digital-markets-act-ensuring-fair-and-open-digital-markets_en

And the long version https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/?uri=CELEX%3A32022R1925

Anticompetition isn't necessarily the specific issue here, it's "gatekeeping" as the EU describes it. It doesn't particularly matter how that marketshare came about. By having the marketshare these gatekeeping companies have power. And the EU wants to put limits on that power (without directly limiting their ability to have the marketshare).

[HenrySalayne]

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Apple has always designed and targeted a uniform wall garden experience and has actually used that as part of their selling point. Android and Windows never put value on such things or designed their operating systems with that in mind. Them limiting stuff wouldn't serve the same purpose as apple because of how the rest of the operating system works. 

I don't follow your point. Are you advocating Apple should be excepted from anti-consumer and anti-competetive regulation because that's their selling point? An exception for a set of rules all gatekeepers must follow equally?

Are some corporations more equal than others?

[Brooksie359]

5 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

I don't follow your point. Are you advocating Apple should be excepted from anti-consumer and anti-competetive regulation because that's their selling point? An exception for a set of rules all gatekeepers must follow equally?

Are some corporations more equal than others?

Ok let me give you a situation. Let's say that a phone company comes out with a phone that disallows social media on it and it's main selling point is that it is a phone for people who struggle with social media addiction. Now let's say said phone company does super well because people like the fact that it put in hard measures to ensure they stay off of social media. Now let's say that the EU comes in and says hey you can't disallow social media on your phone because that is gatekeeping? See how that would be noticeably different then say an os that wasn't designed with being locked down in mind suddenly trying to lock things down now that they have a high market share and can get away with it?

[HenrySalayne]

11 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

Ok let me give you a situation. Let's say that a phone company comes out with a phone that disallows social media on it and it's main selling point is that it is a phone for people who struggle with social media addiction. Now let's say said phone company does super well because people like the fact that it put in hard measures to ensure they stay off of social media. Now let's say that the EU comes in and says hey you can't disallow social media on your phone because that is gatekeeping? See how that would be noticeably different then say an os that wasn't designed with being locked down in mind suddenly trying to lock things down now that they have a high market share and can get away with it?

That is an interesting theory, but you already know that it doesn't apply to Apple since you had to create another example.

Apple doesn't advertise or even disclaim their 30% cut of all revenue - they even forbid mentioning it. They don't advertise their anti-competetive measures to strengthen their control and own products.

Apple does advertise app variety. Apple does advertise gaming, especially their own service. However, Apple doesn't allow certain games because the developers don't want to be extorted by a 30% cut they can't mention or built into their iOS pricing.

 

If - and only if - Apple would ever communicate and avertise the reality, you could have a point. But they don't do that and they will never do that.

 

[Brooksie359]

50 minutes ago, HenrySalayne said:

That is an interesting theory, but you already know that it doesn't apply to Apple since you had to create another example.

Apple doesn't advertise or even disclaim their 30% cut of all revenue - they even forbid mentioning it. They don't advertise their anti-competetive measures to strengthen their control and own products.

Apple does advertise app variety. Apple does advertise gaming, especially their own service. However, Apple doesn't allow certain games because the developers don't want to be extorted by a 30% cut they can't mention or built into their iOS pricing.

 

If - and only if - Apple would ever communicate and avertise the reality, you could have a point. But they don't do that and they will never do that.

 

Yeah that isn't a sound counter argument. It would be dumb to assume that Apple or any company would need to advertise practices just because some people don't like them. Also you are ascribing intent of them locking down their OS to purposefully trying to be anticompetitive and leverage their market position. The glaring issue with that assertion is that Apple has had a design philosophy of having a uniform locked down experience for various reason even before they had a significant market share to even leverage. They have also stated the reasons for that design philosophy and some people like that philosophy and buy Apple products because of it. Also asking for 30% cut is pretty typical in the industry so I would hardly say that is extortion and it is disingenuous to say they are making use of their position to overcharge when using that industry standard rate. If Apple was asking for 40% or more then I could understand people complaining that Apple is using their control of their os to extort app developers. 

[HenrySalayne]

6 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

It would be dumb to assume that Apple or any company would need to advertise practices just because some people don't like them.

Do I need to remind you that it was your argument that Apple don't need to follow an equal set of rules, because what they do is a selling point their customers explicitly want? Since you call it "dumb to assume" that Apple would need to advertise it, I think we can all agree that it's indeed not a selling point customers explicitely want and hence Apple should follow EU regulations like any other corporation.

I'm glad we could clear this up.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

Do I need to remind you that it was your argument that Apple don't need to follow an equal set of rules, because what they do is a selling point their customers explicitly want? Since you call it "dumb to assume" that Apple would need to advertise it, I think we can all agree that it's indeed not a selling point customers explicitely want and hence Apple should follow EU regulations like any other corporation.

I'm glad we could clear this up.

I am not sure what mental gymnastics logic that is. Did you not read what I wrote? They had a design philosophy of having a uniform locked down experience from the start and everything they have done reflects that and it is part of what made the successful. A selling point is something a company does that makes them standout and provide something consumers want. It has little to do with advertising. They have a reason why they designed their products the way they did and is part of their selling point and like I said these practices were in place before they had the market share high enough to make it "anticompetitive" in the EUs eye. This clearly demonstrates that they did it for other reasons and if they did want to use it for anticompetitive tactics they would ask for more than the industry standard rate. 

[HenrySalayne]

2 hours ago, Brooksie359 said:

They had a design philosophy of having a uniform locked down experience from the start and everything they have done reflects that and it is part of what made the successful. A selling point is something a company does that makes them standout and provide something consumers want. It has little to do with advertising. They have a reason why they designed their products the way they did and is part of their selling point and like I said these practices were in place before they had the market share high enough to make it "anticompetitive" in the EUs eye.

There must be an exhaustive list covering all their selling points. I'm no Apple expert so you probably can find it and we can go through the points conflicting with the EU regulation.

Talking about that their "design philosophy" in general entitle them to an exception from the EU regulation is obviously no basis for an argument.

[Brooksie359]

1 hour ago, HenrySalayne said:

There must be an exhaustive list covering all their selling points. I'm no Apple expert so you probably can find it and we can go through the points conflicting with the EU regulation.

Talking about that their "design philosophy" in general entitle them to an exception from the EU regulation is obviously no basis for an argument.

Yes it is. If a company provides a product that people like and one of those aspects is something people like but the EU is trying to make it illegal it seems like a big problem especially since Apple hasn't demonstrated that they are using their position to overcharge app developers. I mean take my example of a phone that disallows social media on it for people who have issues with social media this would technically be gatekeeping but the gatekeeping is something consumers want and arguably should be allowed. I mean it isn't like there wouldn't be phones that could have social media and forcing the company to allow social media on the phone would be bad and decrease consumer choices overall. I think your contention is that Apple violates EU policy so that somehow means there is no argument against it but my point is that the EU policy is stupid imo and entirely unnecessary. If people care about more choices in app stores then they can buy android instead of forcing apple to change to be more like android and away from their original design philosophy. 

[HenrySalayne]

55 minutes ago, Brooksie359 said:

I mean take my example of a phone that disallows social media on it for people who have issues with social media this would technically be gatekeeping but the gatekeeping is something consumers want and arguably should be allowed.

No, I won't take any more theoretical examples while you fail to name even one concrete selling point conflicting with EU regulation.

Your entire argument so far boils down to "it has an Apple logo" and "people like Apple" and "so Apple shouldn't fall under the regulation".

[Brooksie359]

1 minute ago, HenrySalayne said:

No, I won't take any more theoretical examples while you fail to name even one concrete selling point conflicting with EU regulation.

Your entire argument so far boils down to "it has an Apple logo" and "people like Apple" and "so Apple shouldn't fall under the regulation".

Security concerns, privacy concerns, and ensuring uniform quality experience are the ones I can think of on the top of my head. Added of unnecessary complexity to the os. You might disagree but to say there is no argument is just not true. 

[HenrySalayne]

On 2/2/2024 at 9:35 PM, Brooksie359 said:

Security concerns, privacy concerns, and ensuring uniform quality experience are the ones I can think of on the top of my head

About that:

https://mashable.com/article/apple-app-store-approves-fake-lastpass-password-manager-app

 

You can enter the walled garden here:

Don't worry, it's perfectly safe.

[Brooksie359]

10 hours ago, HenrySalayne said:

About that:

https://mashable.com/article/apple-app-store-approves-fake-lastpass-password-manager-app

 

You can enter the walled garden here:

Don't worry, it's perfectly safe.

Yeah I don't think that is a very good argument. Nothing is 100% safe but at least apple has some control over the security and privacy when they have control over the ecosystem.