What is the legal stance/common practice if your PSU fails and kills your PC and other parts?

[Actual_Criminal]

I had a PC a few years ago which was quite high-end at the time in 2019. The PSU sparked randomly one day and killed the PC. Nothing out of the ordinary was being done to it (no OC, messing with voltages for any parts etc.)

 

It ended up killing the motherboard and the PSU itself, so it could in theory, have been a motherboard issue (?) + other external causes not known, like a power outlet issue but unlikely, as had no issues with it before and after the event.

 

I ended up just replacing/disposing of the broken parts and sold off the working ones (tested beforehand) to build a brand new PC.

 

The PSU was like a 800W Platinum rated Corsair one and the mobo was ASUS. The parts were all brand new purchased from reputable retailers within the last 12-18 months MAX. I still had all the receipts and boxes.

 

Did I miss a trick? Could have I gone back to Corsair for a PSU replacement? What about the ASUS motherboard?

 

Reason I am asking this, I have seen a few videos recently online of new PC owners starting their newbuild high-end PC, for it to spark and potentially short various components.

 

Where does the liability lie here in respect of who is OBLIGATED to replace/repair, including any resulting damages caused assuming the offending component is still within its warranty period? I also remember that some manufacturers are more generous with their warranty schemes like EVGA...

 

-Do manufactures typically just cover their component only, if it is the offending cause? 

E.G. in my scenario, Corsair to cover the PSU only.

 

-Do manufactures typically cover all parts they have damaged, as a result of their failed component?

E.G. Corsair would pay for both the PSU and the Asus motherboard.

 

-Do manufacture typically cover damage regardless of who was at fault of an electrical failure? (But their own products only.)

E.G. Corsair would pay for their PSU and ASUS would cover their motherboard, even though its not ASUS' fault.

 

Another thing, how is the PC/components actually tested to evidently prove they had failed and are responsible? Let's say one of the parts failed and caused a fire, it then burns your apartment block down and kills numerous people and causes millions in damages. In that scenario, a qualified electrical Forensic team would diagnose the likely cause of the damages (with criminal forensics likely appointed too.)

 

In reality though, this probably happens all the time (small electric faults) and specialists/forensics don't get appointed to confirm who is to blame, as:

1.) There would be too many cases to deal with.

2.) It would not be worth it economically. (A single Forensic survey^ like that in the UK will cost at least £2,000; usually more.)

 

Can anyone confirm this then or provide more insight?

 

Would certainly be a good topic for consumers to know. (Of course, liability rules would differ depending where you live, so generally speaking in respect of the main well-known manufactures.)

[PDifolco]

Depends on local law, but here in EU I'm pretty sure the failure of a PSU under warranty that kills the PC oblige the PSU provider to indemnize for the lost items, as it is their part defect that caused the damage

But they may argue that it's not their fault and it'll be pretty hard to prove it is, investigation and legal costs being much more expensive than just replace it and call it day... that's what's fun with law  

However they should have replaced your PSU (under warranty) without much discussion, don't understand why you didnt even ask

Another idea would have been to send all this to GNSteve to investigate for free and make a vid about it  

[podkall]

11 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

Depends on local law, but here in EU I'm pretty sure the failure of a PSU under warranty that kills the PC oblige the PSU provider to indemnize for the lost items, as it is their part defect that caused the damage

But they may argue that it's not their fault and it'll be pretty hard to prove it is, investigation and legal costs being much more expensive than just replace it and call it day... that's what's fun with law  

However they should have replaced your PSU (under warranty) without much discussion, don't understand why you didnt even ask

Another idea would have been to send all this to GNSteve to investigate for free and make a vid about it  

thank god EU isn't like America, where any accusation goes to court just to delay that accusation for another few months/years (at least not as much as America probably is) [all statements are based on my assumptions about America, bear with me if I'm wrong]

[Actual_Criminal]

18 minutes ago, PDifolco said:

Depends on local law, but here in EU I'm pretty sure the failure of a PSU under warranty that kills the PC oblige the PSU provider to indemnize for the lost items, as it is their part defect that caused the damage

But they may argue that it's not their fault and it'll be pretty hard to prove it is, investigation and legal costs being much more expensive than just replace it and call it day... that's what's fun with law  

 

However they should have replaced your PSU (under warranty) without much discussion, don't understand why you didnt even ask

But that is what I am saying though. Investigative causes to prove fault would be very expensive, notwithstanding the legal charges assuming solicitors did get involved.

 

So it then falls back on the manufacture to prove fault, where they are biased and hold the smoking gun effectively. I know law and this process myself, usually the OEM and an independent specialist examine the offending part together. Here in the UK, we call this a destructive survey.

 

However, just trying to understand best practice for PC components.

 

Can you imagine you just built at £5K+ PC with a RTX 4090, high-end PSU, top-of the line AMD/Intel CPU, 64GB of RAM, SSDs etc etc, for the PSU to fail and damage all of the components... you would then be out thousands and is 100% no fault to the consumer.

 

P.S. The reason I didn't go back to Corsair in my case was because I wanted a new PSU anyway for an even higher build at the time. Had I spent the effort returning the PSU, I would have likely sold the replacement. I was also earning lots at the time, so the time & postage cost > refund/replacment cost wasn't worth it at that period in my life. Still, I do now recognise now though that it may have been worth going back to them.

[seanondemand]

In principle, maybe there would be some legal remedy 

 

In practice, I believe the legal term for how it would go would be that you would be "shit out of luck bruv"

 

Going through the legal system for anything less than many thousands of dollars never makes any sense, in terms of money spent on fees and time wasted.

[Actual_Criminal]

44 minutes ago, seanondemand said:

Going through the legal system for anything less than many thousands of dollars never makes any sense, in terms of money spent on fees and time wasted.

Hmm, I disagree with this.

 

We have the small claims court / fast track court for Civil cases in the UK deal with many claims up to £5,000 (I believe this has been increased as well). Most of them are way under this amount. I think it depends on how easy / provable your case is, with supporting evidence on the balance of probabilities. Usually worth doing against other individuals or SMEs. A lof of the time, you don't need a solicitor if you're not a dumbass and document well.

 

However, if you reworded your statement as "Going through the legal system against a huge corporation or business..." then yes, you will usually need professional legal advice which can add up, especially if you lose and have to pay fees.

[Lurking]

On 1/15/2024 at 2:05 PM, Actual_Criminal said:

Hmm, I disagree with this.

 

We have the small claims court / fast track court for Civil cases in the UK deal with many claims up to £5,000 (I believe this has been increased as well). Most of them are way under this amount. I think it depends on how easy / provable your case is, with supporting evidence on the balance of probabilities. Usually worth doing against other individuals or SMEs. A lof of the time, you don't need a solicitor if you're not a dumbass and document well.

 

However, if you reworded your statement as "Going through the legal system against a huge corporation or business..." then yes, you will usually need professional legal advice which can add up, especially if you lose and have to pay fees.

You still have to pay the court fee unless that is free in your country. And also ... you have to win the case to get money. Even if you win in small claims court, they can move it to a higher court. 

 

The only thing you can get easily is warranty replacement for the PSU. That likely will be a refurbished unit and not necessarily new. Be happy they don't usually make you proof it wasn't the MB's fault.

 

To get anything else, you have to proof the PSU damaged other hardware. How to proof this? Hire expert witness, hire a good attorney, and hope the judge or jury sides with you. In case they don't, you may have to pay the other party's legal expenses depending on local laws. 

 

Small claims court isn't just an automatic win. It will just a shorter trial with somewhat less cross examination etc. 

 

 

[Actual_Criminal]

19 hours ago, Lurking said:

You still have to pay the court fee unless that is free in your country. And also ... you have to win the case to get money. Even if you win in small claims court, they can move it to a higher court. 

 

The only thing you can get easily is warranty replacement for the PSU. That likely will be a refurbished unit and not necessarily new. Be happy they don't usually make you proof it wasn't the MB's fault.

 

To get anything else, you have to proof the PSU damaged other hardware. How to proof this? Hire expert witness, hire a good attorney, and hope the judge or jury sides with you. In case they don't, you may have to pay the other party's legal expenses depending on local laws. 

 

Small claims court isn't just an automatic win. It will just a shorter trial with somewhat less cross examination etc. 

 

 

You can also claim for court fees here in the UK. The losing party has to pay court fees. Not necessarily solicitor fees, but court fees yes. There are some strict criteria though you have to follow beforehand.

 

I would know! I once took a nightclub to small claims court for £20... you may think I'm joking, but I'm dead serious. 

 

In the end, I included interest, compensation and court fees (court fees were around £230) and was awarded just over £700. The company had a CCJ registered against it, which would hinder the director from getting credit in the future. Wasn't probably worth it in terms of my time and stress spent on it (about 10-15 hours), however when you include the principle aspect (if you are someone who cares about that stuff) then it totally was. 

[Lurking]

5 hours ago, Actual_Criminal said:

You can also claim for court fees here in the UK. The losing party has to pay court fees. Not necessarily solicitor fees, but court fees yes. There are some strict criteria though you have to follow beforehand.

 

I would know! I once took a nightclub to small claims court for £20... you may think I'm joking, but I'm dead serious. 

 

In the end, I included interest, compensation and court fees (court fees were around £230) and was awarded just over £700. The company had a CCJ registered against it, which would hinder the director from getting credit in the future. Wasn't probably worth it in terms of my time and stress spent on it (about 10-15 hours), however when you include the principle aspect (if you are someone who cares about that stuff) then it totally was. 

The fact people go to court because of 20 quid shows what is wrong with the World. 

 

If a business did me wrong for $25, I probably would complain and talk to the manager. If that doesn't help, I would just never ever patronize that business again and tell everyone I know. But no person should go to court for that amount of money. 

 

Maybe different if a government agency steals your $25 since there the "never patronizing" anymore may not work and they can take your money regardless. But a nightclub is a place you volunteered to go to. Just don't go there anymore and consider those 20 quid tuition paid. 

 

I'm curious what exactly happened that you thought they owe you 20 quid. Like, did they charge you for a drink but didn't give it to you, or what? Must be something real since you were able to convince a judge. It also was quite an investment on your end since you didn't know you would win and then you would have to pay all the fees. 

[Actual_Criminal]

8 hours ago, Lurking said:

The fact people go to court because of 20 quid shows what is wrong with the World. 

Incorrect; it's the fact that people HAVE to go to court just to get what is owed to them, even £20, is what is wrong with the world.

 

Of course I did complain, made numerous phone calls, wrote letters/Emails etc. - this falls in line with the mandatory requirements I mentioned in my previous post... I didn't just immediately file a lawsuit.

 

I DID know I would win. The scenario was wholly unjustified, which is whilst I filed the case. If I had any doubt of losing, then I would have not pursued it. It wasn't costly for me at all, as I won the fees back. The only 'cost' was my time, which I mentioned in my previous post. Still, £46.66 an hour wasn't that bad. (Actually £31.33 an hour really, since the fees were already my own money.)

 

It was a classic example of a dodgy business taking advantage of people.

 

I won't go into the scenario as my words seem lost on you anyway and the post is going off topic...

[silencer12]

19 hours ago, Lurking said:

The fact people go to court because of 20 quid shows what is wrong with the World. 

 

If a business did me wrong for $25, I probably would complain and talk to the manager. If that doesn't help, I would just never ever patronize that business again and tell everyone I know. But no person should go to court for that amount of money. 

 

Maybe different if a government agency steals your $25 since there the "never patronizing" anymore may not work and they can take your money regardless. But a nightclub is a place you volunteered to go to. Just don't go there anymore and consider those 20 quid tuition paid. 

 

I'm curious what exactly happened that you thought they owe you 20 quid. Like, did they charge you for a drink but didn't give it to you, or what? Must be something real since you were able to convince a judge. It also was quite an investment on your end since you didn't know you would win and then you would have to pay all the fees. 

He got paired with a not-so-good looking woman LOL who didn't perform her dance routine that well I bet. Only a few girls are good looking at night clubs.

 

 

Here in states. Only wise for court cases if you have a legit case. If something happens to your health (death) before trial....then it goes out the window. Court fees usually happen against the one that doesn't win the case. However, their have been instances the winner paid court fees instead the one that lossed. I may be wrong though.

[Lurking]

2 hours ago, silencer12 said:

He got paired with a not-so-good looking woman LOL who didn't perform her dance routine that well I bet. Only a few girls are good looking at night clubs.

 

 

Here in states. Only wise for court cases if you have a legit case. If something happens to your health (death) before trial....then it goes out the window. Court fees usually happen against the one that doesn't win the case. However, their have been instances the winner paid court fees instead the one that lossed. I may be wrong though.

The thing with court cases is, both the plaintiff and the defendant initially think they will win. Otherwise they would have settled. Obviously at least one of them will be wrong. 

 

And even if you think you win, you have to initially pay the court fee upfront and then hope to recover it. Even if you win,the defendant may just not have money to recover. 

 

I once went to small claims court when I was president of our HOA. Some owners didn't want to pay the few bucks if annual fee. After months of trying all other ways, we sued the last holdouts. The thing is, if we let some people get away, we have to charge honest members more money to make up for that. One of the neighbors is an attorney and helped me pro bono. For all but one the attorney just filed paperwork and we got the money without je having to appear in court. One of the members we sued then went to the next level court and started harassing me and calling my boss and so on. I had to get a restraining order (he was a contractor that owned multiple lots and the original fee was $20). He had an attorney and everything. But that was his expense. He still had to pay us the money. 

 

It wasn't about my money and we sued for the sake of being fair to members who paid the fee. If it would have been my personal money, I wouldn't have done it. And originally it of course wasn't clear it would lead to harassment and restraining orders. Pick your battles wisely. Ideally don't pick battles.

[mariushm]

I'm not sure, but I don't think a power supply manufacturer has to reimburse you for other components failed due to it. Especially not without any kind of investigation of the faulty power supply and other components, to see the causes of failure.

 

For example, if the power supply failed due to some lightning strike which caused components inside to fail and in turn cause the motherboard or cpu to be damaged, how can you blame the psu manufacturer for not designing the power supply with specifications nobody could achieve? A lightning strike has so high voltage and current that it will pass through air and components.

 

If a mosfet on a motherboard fails short and somehow the overcurrent protection in the psu fails or the power supply has no such over current protection, do you ask the motherboard manufacturer to pay to replace the power supply? If the psu doesn't advertise any over current protection, then it's not power supply's fault it failed, right? The motherboard killed the psu... not the psu.

 

I see it in a similar way to ... if a car tire blows up and you swerve and hit a pole, is the car tire manufacturer liable for the replacing the car? May not be the best analogy, but car tires can blow not only by puncture, but also by misuse like not inflating them properly or inflating too much, or just too many heat/cold cycles, or just plain wear.

[Lurking]

If you buy from a system integrator, their warranty would cover other components damaged. But if you DIY, YOU are the system integrator. 

 

They probably could tell if the PSU failed due to lightning, though. That wouldn't be covered.

[Actual_Criminal]

2 hours ago, Lurking said:

If you buy from a system integrator, their warranty would cover other components damaged. But if you DIY, YOU are the system integrator. 

 

They probably could tell if the PSU failed due to lightning, though. That wouldn't be covered.

Indeed, lightning used to be in the category of Acts of God in old policy stipulations. Basically, outside their control. 

 

It is now commonly called Acts of Nature instead, due to wokeism about the term God.

[Lurking]

21 minutes ago, Actual_Criminal said:

Indeed, lightning used to be in the category of Acts of God in old policy stipulations. Basically, outside their control. 

 

It is now commonly called Acts of Nature instead, due to wokeism about the term God.

In the US, religion was separated from the State (and should be removed from all legal documents like warranties and insurances) since 1789 in the 1st amendment. This was done by the same woke people who also ratified the 2nd amendment. 

 

Since there is more than one religion, it will be hard to pinpoint which God to blame for destroying a PSU. 

 

Since this is a technical forum, i like to stay with scientific explanations. 

[silencer12]

2 hours ago, Lurking said:

In the US, religion was separated from the State (and should be removed from all legal documents like warranties and insurances) since 1789 in the 1st amendment. This was done by the same woke people who also ratified the 2nd amendment. 

 

Since there is more than one religion, it will be hard to pinpoint which God to blame for destroying a PSU. 

 

Since this is a technical forum, i like to stay with scientific explanations. 

LMAO