Question about a common take

[KageSong]

So, there's a common take on WAN show, and actually other channels, that I really like. "You can't compete with someone who will do the job for free." Referring to someone who wants to do the job because they want to do it for the experience of doing it, and pay is a secondary factor. I think I see examples of this within LMG even, and that's really cool. However, that usually, from what I see, involves a worker who has a LOT of experience and clout, and has made a lot of money from it, and still gets paid a lot.

So... I'm curious, what does someone without a resume or clout, or much experience, just a passion and  desire to be doing something, find that? Like, I mean, someone who really wouldn't care if they get paid, they just need to be involved in something. I'm not sure if that's something many people think about, but I'm hoping someone's got an idea.

PS - enjoy your new year everyone. stay safe and healthy, etc. 

[Middcore]

I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

"Do the job for free" carries the understanding the person can actually do the job. A resume with experience is how you convince people you can do the job. If they think you're going to fuck it up, they're unlikely to let you do it, even if they don't have to pay. 

 

Are you just asking for how to find volunteer opportunities? 

[KageSong]

On 12/30/2023 at 10:47 AM, Middcore said:

I'm not sure I understand your question.

 

"Do the job for free" carries the understanding the person can actually do the job. A resume with experience is how you convince people you can do the job. If they think you're going to fuck it up, they're unlikely to let you do it, even if they don't have to pay. 

 

Are you just asking for how to find volunteer opportunities? 

Yes, one can't have a resume without experience to prove themselves. I'm not going to get hired for a paycheck, so I'd be willing to work to show that I have value in an industry. If I don't, it's a small loss to the company overall.

[Middcore]

1 hour ago, KageSong said:

Yes, one can't have a resume without experience to prove themselves. I'm not going to get hired for a paycheck, so I'd be willing to work to show that I have value in an industry. If I don't, it's a small loss to the company overall.

 

But again, most companies aren't going to let you do anything but the most menial work without training and experience because of the risk you'll screw it up.

 

"Hey, I have no experience in IT whatsoever, but I'll manage your network infrastructure for free."

"Uhhh we'll pass, thanks."

 

It's also a potential legal/liability issue for companies to let people work for free. 

[NobleGamer]

1 hour ago, Middcore said:

But again, most companies aren't going to let you do anything but the most menial work without training and experience because of the risk you'll screw it up.

 

"Hey, I have no experience in IT whatsoever, but I'll manage your network infrastructure for free."

"Uhhh we'll pass, thanks."

 

It's also a potential legal/liability issue for companies to let people work for free. 

To elaborate for OPs sake (in the US):

 

There are internships but those are generally for people in college or college age.

 

Various hands-on "blue collar" jobs have apprenticeships (I don't know if they're free or paid) such as mechanics, electricians, or build-related trades, but that's not common with tech jobs. Internships are far more likely with tech than apprenticeships. Also, there's regulations that basically require a significant part of internships to be menial or academic as opposed to mostly doing stuff on the job that could replace another employee. I don't know if there are any regulations for apprenticeships.

[Rocketdog2112]

Ever hear of an internship? 

[Lurking]

You have a very long way to ask a very unclear question. 

 

What is the work you want to do for free and what location or type of market do you live in? Answers will depend on if you want to flip burgers in Chile or design spaceships in the US. 

 

Free work never is good. Start with paid lower skill work in the field of interest and work your way up.

[KageSong]

On 1/7/2024 at 6:39 PM, Middcore said:

 

But again, most companies aren't going to let you do anything but the most menial work without training and experience because of the risk you'll screw it up.

 

"Hey, I have no experience in IT whatsoever, but I'll manage your network infrastructure for free."

"Uhhh we'll pass, thanks."

 

It's also a potential legal/liability issue for companies to let people work for free. 

Y'know, I just can't morally accept that answer. I was raised by an abusive family who hurt myself and others to make sure they still have control of my adult life. I have essentially been not allowed to find work to the extent of being made physically and mentally disabled. I have to find somewhere to prove that I have value to society, and if I can't be allowed to do that, because my parents messed my life up so much that I have literally stood on the roof screaming for someone to rescue me from their home, because I was robbed from any opportunity by them, then I have zero chance of success.

So, SOMEBODY has to be willing to let someone prove themselves. I spend  most of my time learning new things, but I don't have any method or guidance to use them for myself to like, do my own thing for money, because I'm pretty strongly mentally disabled, though I'm still fighting for a diagnosis. So, your answer does nothing but marginalize me and show that my life has zero inherent value.

Thank you for your confirmation of what I've known for at least 2 decades now.

[Middcore]

1 minute ago, KageSong said:

Y'know, I just can't morally accept that answer. I was raised by an abusive family who hurt myself and others to make sure they still have control of my adult life. I have essentially been not allowed to find work to the extent of being made physically and mentally disabled. I have to find somewhere to prove that I have value to society, and if I can't be allowed to do that, because my parents messed my life up so much that I have literally stood on the roof screaming for someone to rescue me from their home, because I was robbed from any opportunity by them, then I have zero chance of success.

So, SOMEBODY has to be willing to let someone prove themselves. I spend  most of my time learning new things, but I don't have any method or guidance to use them for myself to like, do my own thing for money, because I'm pretty strongly mentally disabled, though I'm still fighting for a diagnosis. So, your answer does nothing but marginalize me and show that my life has zero inherent value.

Thank you for your confirmation of what I've known for at least 2 decades now.

 

The value of your life doesn't come from a job or from being useful to society.

[KageSong]

22 hours ago, Lurking said:

You have a very long way to ask a very unclear question. 

 

What is the work you want to do for free and what location or type of market do you live in? Answers will depend on if you want to flip burgers in Chile or design spaceships in the US. 

 

Free work never is good. Start with paid lower skill work in the field of interest and work your way up.

Will you pay me for low skill work? Cause no one else will, so I'm hoping I can find something, I can't really relocate from Missouri, because I don't have an income, but I know a little bit about a lot of things. I can do some networking, some editing, build computers, I mean, I've had nothing but time to learn new things since I was about 20 years old, and I've learned as much as my mental disorder will let me.

It's hard to give a much more clear answer, because I feel like you're asking me to be picky, when I can't be picky. Without going into unnecessary detail, if I apply at say, McDonald's, their application kicks me out when I put in my social, and says I'm simply not allowed to work there. Menial work is not an option. I need to help someone creatively, I think, that just wants someone that wants to be there helping make stuff.

I mean, part of me would love to volunteer/intern/whatever (I don't really know what word would be right) for something like Adam Savage's tested. I LOVE making things, and I've never been able to get real tools to really work and learn with, and that would really be an opportunity for me to do something. BUT, because of the stuff I mentioned, I can't just... grab money that doesn't exist to go to school, or buy my own workshop, etc. So I need to be working with someone who has that, and if it's an opportunity to learn more that I can't figure out on my own, so that I CAN have a reputation and resume, then I can maybe finally escape my family.

[KageSong]

Just now, Middcore said:

 

The value of your life doesn't come from a job or from being useful to society.

That may be your opinion, but I doubt you would argue that being able to feed oneself, at the bare minimum, is pretty important. And I disagree with you, to be clear. But that's subjective.

[KageSong]

23 hours ago, Rocketdog2112 said:

Ever hear of an internship? 

Ever meet a 34 year old intern that's not in college and can't afford his own meals? Cause I don't even know how to look at such a position. I live in a tiny tiny town. I don't even know where such a thing exists outside of movie and tv, that's why I'm here asking this question. Because I hoped what was said was something earnest and useful. Now I realize it's a privilege for people much much better than me.

 

I was hoping to find a way to contribute something to the world and work toward having my own feet. You all have clarified that I've missed every chance to earn that.

[Middcore]

3 minutes ago, KageSong said:

That may be your opinion, but I doubt you would argue that being able to feed oneself, at the bare minimum, is pretty important.

I think you deserve to eat, whether or not you are "useful" in some way. 

 

3 minutes ago, KageSong said:

And I disagree with you, to be clear. 

If your sense of self-worth fundamentally depends on some kind of utility you can provide to others it will always be a house of cards. There are too many factors completely outside your control which can annihilate it. 

 

I'm sure you won't believe me, but I can somewhat understand how you feel. I am a very "task-oriented" person who always wants to feel "useful." I had a solid job that I was good at I had to walk away from for ethical reasons; I hated looking at myself in the mirror doing what I was doing and the anxiety I think would have literally killed me eventually. Ever since then I've had trouble finding good employment, and I struggle with feeling like that's an indictment of my value as a person. 

 

But it seems like at this point you don't really want advice, you want to spiral and talk shit about yourself and lash out. I recognize what you're doing because I've had the same moments, but I'm not going to engage with it any further because I know it's not productive. I wish you well. 

[Lurking]

45 minutes ago, KageSong said:

Will you pay me for low skill work? Cause no one else will, so I'm hoping I can find something, I can't really relocate from Missouri, because I don't have an income, but I know a little bit about a lot of things. I can do some networking, some editing, build computers, I mean, I've had nothing but time to learn new things since I was about 20 years old, and I've learned as much as my mental disorder will let me.

It's hard to give a much more clear answer, because I feel like you're asking me to be picky, when I can't be picky. Without going into unnecessary detail, if I apply at say, McDonald's, their application kicks me out when I put in my social, and says I'm simply not allowed to work there. Menial work is not an option. I need to help someone creatively, I think, that just wants someone that wants to be there helping make stuff.

I mean, part of me would love to volunteer/intern/whatever (I don't really know what word would be right) for something like Adam Savage's tested. I LOVE making things, and I've never been able to get real tools to really work and learn with, and that would really be an opportunity for me to do something. BUT, because of the stuff I mentioned, I can't just... grab money that doesn't exist to go to school, or buy my own workshop, etc. So I need to be working with someone who has that, and if it's an opportunity to learn more that I can't figure out on my own, so that I CAN have a reputation and resume, then I can maybe finally escape my family.

I don't know what your low skill is. Or what your limitations are. Or the market you are in. But here there always is demand for house cleaning, handy work, landscaping etc. that one can do for neighbors and make a living if you are reliable. If you can help people with computers or refurbish computers, that is another.

 

One of our custodians has some sort of slight mental disability ( I don't know what, didn't want to ask). But he is very smart with computers and has been building computers since as a child. He even hacked into some databases to the point the FBI raided his parents' home. They quickly realized he was just an innocent kid (and probably had a good laugh). Obviously he is very smart and capable with some things. You have to find what your skill is. 

[KageSong]

15 hours ago, Lurking said:

I don't know what your low skill is. Or what your limitations are. Or the market you are in. But here there always is demand for house cleaning, handy work, landscaping etc. that one can do for neighbors and make a living if you are reliable. If you can help people with computers or refurbish computers, that is another.

 

One of our custodians has some sort of slight mental disability ( I don't know what, didn't want to ask). But he is very smart with computers and has been building computers since as a child. He even hacked into some databases to the point the FBI raided his parents' home. They quickly realized he was just an innocent kid (and probably had a good laugh). Obviously he is very smart and capable with some things. You have to find what your skill is. 

I'm not able to do physical labor much due to untreated scapular dyskinesis. The story on that is a bit personal though. Suffice to say that my parents wanted to make sure I couldn't earn my own wages. I shouldn't delve into that further here either, I'm learning.

I feel like I have a lot of creative skills that can be nurtured. Idk if I can draw portraits anymore with my shoulder, but if someone wanted me to try, I would. I've built PCs since I was 9. I've learned the starts of video editing, photo editing, used to know some java (I'm able to learn code, being the point). A big thing is that I just never had the upbringing to know how to apply any of that, or learn the full scope on my own. I just need somewhere that I can take my skills to a better level. I probably need to be shown some things that I don't know, but I think I know what I need to learn, and my grandma was a teacher and always said, "an education is figuring out what it is you don't know yet."

It's difficult for me to use words to explain things, due to my anxiety, and something yet undiagnosed that I can't explain, but I hope this sort of helps explain what I would hope to find. I try to keep a positive attitude, but I've never even learned how to find an opportunity. My family always treats it like I'm supposed to walk in and say "Hey, mister, I'd sure like a job here. When could I start?" Which, obviously isn't correct, and I HAVE worked, just... well obviously nothing worked out, cause I can't do physical labor, and whatever mental disorder I have (we suspect autism), made it kinda impossible for basic jobs like fast food etc, because no one had the time to take that I needed to learn it.

My hope is that a creative industry might have use for someone that can take it a bit slow while learning some finesse, etc in the background for less important/smaller tasks. I'm not expecting to be front and center, obviously. I mean, sure this is a desperate ploy to find any place in the world, but desperation leads to desperation, yeah?

[KageSong]

15 hours ago, Middcore said:

I think you deserve to eat, whether or not you are "useful" in some way. 

 

If your sense of self-worth fundamentally depends on some kind of utility you can provide to others it will always be a house of cards. There are too many factors completely outside your control which can annihilate it. 

 

I'm sure you won't believe me, but I can somewhat understand how you feel. I am a very "task-oriented" person who always wants to feel "useful." I had a solid job that I was good at I had to walk away from for ethical reasons; I hated looking at myself in the mirror doing what I was doing and the anxiety I think would have literally killed me eventually. Ever since then I've had trouble finding good employment, and I struggle with feeling like that's an indictment of my value as a person. 

 

But it seems like at this point you don't really want advice, you want to spiral and talk shit about yourself and lash out. I recognize what you're doing because I've had the same moments, but I'm not going to engage with it any further because I know it's not productive. I wish you well. 

Most advice I've seen so far makes me feel like people think I'm just lazy and never tried. And regardless of your belief of what I deserve, I am NOT ABLE to feed myself until I find someone to give me an opportunity. If I'm here with this desperation could you possibly expect that maybe the traditional work force, for at least some reason, whether or not you believe mine, has not worked for me, and I'd like to be able to take care of myself? It's not even about my worth, despite me saying that, sure, fine. But it is about not having anyone taking care of me, and not being able to provide for myself. I don't know how long I'll have a roof over my head. My dad owns the house I live in, but doesn't live here. He's got cancer twice in 365 days, and there's a tree actively falling on this house that he won't have removed, and the electric regularly fluctuates and causes fire hazards. Whether the house goes, or my dad goes (who no, does not help with food or medical expenses unless I essentially beg for it), I will be homeless, because I don't have any place to go. For reasons inappropriate for this forum, I'm not welcome at places like shelters, etc. For the same reasons, the local food bank won't deal with me either.

[dalekphalm]

I'm very sorry for what happened to you during your upbringing. You got dealt a shitty hand, no denying that.

 

But, you now need to do something about it. Either you stay where you are, and never progress out of the situation you're in (barring some hope that your parents will eventually change their attitude), or you find resources to help you.

 

I strongly suggest reaching out to whatever social services exist in your state to assist with this. If you have a physical disability that has a confirmed diagnosis from a doctor, this can assist you in getting those social services. Additionally, keep working with your doctor to get a proper diagnosis for your suspected mental disability. Social services may be able to help escalate that process.

 

In the short term, you need to look for ways to make money. Perhaps consider doing odd jobs on Fiverr. Ask around to friends and family looking for a new PC and offer to build the PC for a small fee (say $50 plus costs). See if anyone needs some home networking assistance (Grandma needs new WIFI setup, or something like that). Even if they don't pay you, document the jobs and build a portfolio. Build a website to advertise yourself, etc.

 

Sure, set yourself some dream goals, like working for Tested. But also set reasonable goals that you could actually achieve in a realistic timeframe (Eg: next 1, 5, 10 years).

 

And, lastly, look into social services to get some therapy if you aren't already in some, because no offense, but based on your responses, you need it. You're incredibly confrontational to people who are trying to help but also trying to be realistic about what you want. You seem to wallow in self pity, and that sucks, but you need to work on breaking out of that mindset.

 

I also highly suggest others advice about getting a lower skilled job first and working your way up. Examples include:

- 1st level Help Desk for an ISP (you don't need to know anything other than how to use a basic computer and web browser). Then as you gain experience and skills, you could perhaps cross train for higher tier help desk or other parts of IT, or side-step into the Field Technician role (though with your physical limitations, that might not be practical, but only you can decide what is something you can or cannot do).

 

- Getting a job at a local library as a book shelver, or a front-line desk worker, then introduce yourself to the IT team and offer to volunteer outside of your work hours to do menial tasks for them, such as replacing dead keyboards and mice, installing monitors, etc. If this works out, you could potentially get free training to learn more about IT and more complex tasks, and maybe some day an opening might come up that you could apply for inside the IT team.

 

You have to be creative, but you also need to set realistic goals.

 

Good luck!

[Lurking]

Just to add about working for free: In the US the employer has to pay you at least minimum wage even if you agree to work for less. There are exceptions for minors, disability, internship etc. But if the exception isn't officially acknowledged, you could sue the employer later for lost wages. That is why no employer normally will let you "volunteer". So that example of chatting to IT and doing some free work easily can bring them into trouble. And libraries are run by governments, they sure should know that. Even a training or probationary work will always be paid.

[KageSong]

On 1/10/2024 at 10:29 AM, dalekphalm said:

I'm very sorry for what happened to you during your upbringing. You got dealt a shitty hand, no denying that.

 

But, you now need to do something about it. Either you stay where you are, and never progress out of the situation you're in (barring some hope that your parents will eventually change their attitude), or you find resources to help you.

 

I strongly suggest reaching out to whatever social services exist in your state to assist with this. If you have a physical disability that has a confirmed diagnosis from a doctor, this can assist you in getting those social services. Additionally, keep working with your doctor to get a proper diagnosis for your suspected mental disability. Social services may be able to help escalate that process.

 

In the short term, you need to look for ways to make money. Perhaps consider doing odd jobs on Fiverr. Ask around to friends and family looking for a new PC and offer to build the PC for a small fee (say $50 plus costs). See if anyone needs some home networking assistance (Grandma needs new WIFI setup, or something like that). Even if they don't pay you, document the jobs and build a portfolio. Build a website to advertise yourself, etc.

 

Sure, set yourself some dream goals, like working for Tested. But also set reasonable goals that you could actually achieve in a realistic timeframe (Eg: next 1, 5, 10 years).

 

And, lastly, look into social services to get some therapy if you aren't already in some, because no offense, but based on your responses, you need it. You're incredibly confrontational to people who are trying to help but also trying to be realistic about what you want. You seem to wallow in self pity, and that sucks, but you need to work on breaking out of that mindset.

 

I also highly suggest others advice about getting a lower skilled job first and working your way up. Examples include:

- 1st level Help Desk for an ISP (you don't need to know anything other than how to use a basic computer and web browser). Then as you gain experience and skills, you could perhaps cross train for higher tier help desk or other parts of IT, or side-step into the Field Technician role (though with your physical limitations, that might not be practical, but only you can decide what is something you can or cannot do).

 

- Getting a job at a local library as a book shelver, or a front-line desk worker, then introduce yourself to the IT team and offer to volunteer outside of your work hours to do menial tasks for them, such as replacing dead keyboards and mice, installing monitors, etc. If this works out, you could potentially get free training to learn more about IT and more complex tasks, and maybe some day an opening might come up that you could apply for inside the IT team.

 

You have to be creative, but you also need to set realistic goals.

 

Good luck!

I can't even read this whole thing. I hate having people talk at me like I haven't tried every single thing they've suggested multiple times.

[KageSong]

On 1/10/2024 at 2:40 PM, Lurking said:

Just to add about working for free: In the US the employer has to pay you at least minimum wage even if you agree to work for less. There are exceptions for minors, disability, internship etc. But if the exception isn't officially acknowledged, you could sue the employer later for lost wages. That is why no employer normally will let you "volunteer". So that example of chatting to IT and doing some free work easily can bring them into trouble. And libraries are run by governments, they sure should know that. Even a training or probationary work will always be paid.

In wage-based jobs, yes. One, as has been mentioned, can intern for free, for example. One can also volunteer their time, even to profitable organizations. The person doing a thing at your company doesn't have to work at your company. I'm not talking about McDonald's and Walmart jobs here.

It's inappropriate (per mods in the past) for me to actually explain why I will never be able to work a traditional job, but I can say that if I apply at McDonald's, the website rejects me as soon as it has my SSN. It's not something I can control, so I'm not gonna be making hourly wages at any point. I mean, you know, people like, artists, video editors, musicians, they're not paid hourly for gig work, and gig work can be unpaid. It's all contract. That's the sort of thing that I'm talking about. That's the kind of experience I have.

 

I'm fighting for disability, but in the mean time, whether anyone will quit judging me and take my word, I'm stuck with a father that has MADE CERTAIN I could not work and support myself to the extent of hurting people that tried to help. That's not a situation you just get to walk away from unless I wanna be homeless. So, I'm trying to find some way to do something for myself. That's why I'm trying to do youtube and such despite having a constantly broken computer, getting nothing out of it, and consistently being driven mad by it all, because I CAN do it, no one external can stop me, and when no one can stop me from trying, then I try.

I know for a fact that there are people, especially in the creative industry, that will take on people with beginner skill sets and invest time into them etc. I'm not great with words, but hopefully I'm making some sense with that. I'm not saying I'm great at anything. Maybe some things, depending on application.

I think due to my limitation I've probably innovated on some ideas and found cool ways to do things. I won't really know that until I'm working with others I guess. I've learned what I can with my limitations, which includes aphantasia which makes learning from books nearly impossible. Hands on only basically, which makes working and learning with others more necessary.

I can explain so much more about why I can't really do things on my own, why I can't work, why I can't find a social circle, but I really didn't post this to sob about that stuff. I really just wish someone could give me a useful answer, or at least even just a "idk, but good luck" without judging me like I've sat on my hands for 34 years while my family physically and mentally beat me, without trying to do anything for myself to get away from it. I hate this mentality that people have of "You have to do it for yourself and not rely on anyone". It's such BS. NOBODY ever succeeds alone. Maybe in a moment, but not in reality. When you win that big race, who coached you, who encouraged you, who cheered for you, who fixed you up when you fell? I haven't got any of those roles in my life. People tell me "do it alone" without having a CLUE what that means.

I'm just trying to figure out what "do it on my own" means, and I certainly can't do that on my own, if so, my answer to what it means is far too inappropriate for this chat or forum.

[Godlygamer23]

1 hour ago, KageSong said:

I can't even read this whole thing. I hate having people talk at me like I haven't tried every single thing they've suggested multiple times.

Do you have any friends? This is not an insult. I'm genuinely asking.

[wasab]

Problem with not paying people, even if they are willing, is that they will leave the door the second they learned what they needed from you and have better opportunity come knocking. I am a firm believer of the perfect market hypothesis. Under a fair and competive job market, nothing is a free lunch. You either pay up for quality workers or you don't get quality workers. Similarly for job seekers, you either pick up the skills and experiences or you start out with low pay and work your way up. 

[dalekphalm]

21 hours ago, KageSong said:

I can't even read this whole thing. I hate having people talk at me like I haven't tried every single thing they've suggested multiple times.

Listen if you can't even be bothered to read my post, then you don't want help. You just want pity.

 

Listen, you're not getting a job at Tested. Not yet, anyway.

 

Do something. What are you doing to help yourself, because my post was filled with practical advice, and you didn't even bother to read it.

 

Good luck.

[wasab]

Pretty sure you can drive for uber/lyft/instacart and all those gig platforms. No one cares about disability on there as long as you can get the job done. If you are disabled enough that these do not work out, idk. It is difficult to recommend anything without knowing your situations. 

 

From the sound of it, it seems like you suffer from some type of mental disability rather than anything physical. I know many families would lock their mentally ill member inside the house all day so they don't make a nuisance of themselves or hurt someone outdoors. It is unfortunate but it is what it is. 

[KageSong]

On 1/27/2024 at 12:25 PM, Godlygamer23 said:

Do you have any friends? This is not an insult. I'm genuinely asking.

I have one friend who is busy with his wife and child. That is a genuine answer. :)