How does a front 360mm affect air movement?

[Seedbobo]

I am planning on a build with the Corsair 5000D Airflow and I will use a 360mm AIO for intake (NZXT Kraken Elite).

I am trying to figure out what to do with the extra 2 fans given with the case because I've heard positive air pressure is better. Should I put them both as exhaust? My GPU is an RTX 3080ti and I don't know how much cooling it needs. Buying an extra 3 fans is also maybe an option.

What do you recommend? Thanks

[Seedbobo]

22 hours ago, Seedbobo said:

I am planning on a build with the Corsair 5000D Airflow and I will use a 360mm AIO for intake (NZXT Kraken Elite).

I am trying to figure out what to do with the extra 2 fans given with the case because I've heard positive air pressure is better. Should I put them both as exhaust? My GPU is an RTX 3080ti and I don't know how much cooling it needs. Buying an extra 3 fans is also maybe an option.

What do you recommend? Thanks

I have decided to put an extra 3 intake fans on the back, then 3 exhaust fans on the top. I might leave one stock fan given with the 5000D at the back. Let me know if that's a horrible idea lmao.

[QuantumSingularity]

What CPU are you going to cool? If it's anything modern from AMD you will have no trouble mounting it top, pushing the air from the case out through the rad with 3x120 fans front as intake and 1 rear as exhaust as well. Still will have slightly positive pressure, thus preventing dust build up in exchange for small increase in CPU temps (2-3°C at most). IF you are on modern Intel though, you have to mount it front, sucking cold, fresh air in. The fans will always spin faster than the exhaust ones on the top and rear, so still slightly positive pressure. If you want more positive pressure by mounting it front, then simply put 2x140mm fans on top as exhaust and 1x120mm in the back.

[Seedbobo]

1 hour ago, QuantumSingularity said:

What CPU are you going to cool? If it's anything modern from AMD you will have no trouble mounting it top, pushing the air from the case out through the rad with 3x120 fans front as intake and 1 rear as exhaust as well. Still will have slightly positive pressure, thus preventing dust build up in exchange for small increase in CPU temps (2-3°C at most). IF you are on modern Intel though, you have to mount it front, sucking cold, fresh air in. The fans will always spin faster than the exhaust ones on the top and rear, so still slightly positive pressure. If you want more positive pressure by mounting it front, then simply put 2x140mm fans on top as exhaust and 1x120mm in the back.

I will have the i9 14900k so I planned to front mount the 360mm AIO pipes down. If you look at my other reply, I mentioned what I planned to do. If you could just let me know if that is a horrible idea that would be great. Thanks!

[QuantumSingularity]

The airflow won't be an issue then. What will be is the fact that you will be dumping A LOT of heat from the rad into the case and that 3080Ti certainly won't be happy. My biggest concern however will be AIO integrity over time. Monitor your coolant temperature constantly. If i remember correctly the Kraken Elite series were meant to deal with coolant temperatures of up to 60°C, which is EXTREMELY easy to achieve with 13900k/14900k. For 14900k i would seriously consider a massive air cooler like the NH-D15, where there is no pump or gasket to fail from the temperature abuse.

[Seedbobo]

7 minutes ago, QuantumSingularity said:

The airflow won't be an issue then. What will be is the fact that you will be dumping A LOT of heat from the rad into the case and that 3080Ti certainly won't be happy. My biggest concern however will be AIO integrity over time. Monitor your coolant temperature constantly. If i remember correctly the Kraken Elite series were meant to deal with coolant temperatures of up to 60°C, which is EXTREMELY easy to achieve with 13900k/14900k. For 14900k i would seriously consider a massive air cooler like the NH-D15, where there is no pump or gasket to fail from the temperature abuse.

Now you have me worried about other things lmao. I was planning on putting 3 separate intake fans on the side of the case and 3 exhaust fans on the top. I haven't heard about this AIO problem. Would the Noctua really be a better option over a 360mm AIO? I'm planning on overclocking the 14900k as soon as I learn more about that and I just don't want it to run to hot. Thanks!

[brob]

Not a big deal and the AIO will last at least the warranty period. Which is all one can expect from an AIO.

 

If you want the AIO to be intake it can be mounted on the front, GPU permitting, or on the side. If on the side leave the stock fans in the front. This will bring colder air in and reduce the effect of the warm air from the AIO.

[Seedbobo]

1 hour ago, brob said:

Not a big deal and the AIO will last at least the warranty period. Which is all one can expect from an AIO.

 

If you want the AIO to be intake it can be mounted on the front, GPU permitting, or on the side. If on the side leave the stock fans in the front. This will bring colder air in and reduce the effect of the warm air from the AIO.

I decided to just get loads of fans because why not lmao. I will have the 360mm aio on the front for intake with fans in the "push" orientation. Then I will have 3 intake fans on the side and 3 exhaust fans on the top. I could also put 1 of the extra fans I have on the 1 back spot for exhaust. I was told the 14900k runs so hot though that it might damage my aio much sooner. Let me know what you think.

Thanks

[brob]

25 minutes ago, Seedbobo said:

I was told the 14900k runs so hot though that it might damage my aio much sooner. Let me know what you think.

 

I think you were told a bunch of hooey.

 

At stock Intel settings the i9-14900K has a max sustained thermal output of 253W. (That is just 12W higher than the i9-12900K.) Since high-end air coolers can handle that sort of load it makes absolutely no sense that well sized AIO cannot.

 

[QuantumSingularity]

Linus just recently published a video with the 14900k and a 600W chiller that was finally able to hold the CPU package under 50°C when gaming. In their video it managed to heat the water in the AIO to 10°C, considering it's being cooled via heat exchanger and a -23°C gas flowing through it. My Liquid Freezer II 360 doesn't have a thermal probe to check coolant temperature, but my old EVGA CLC 280 had and it had a warning to not exceed 55°C on coolant temperature for extended periods and if i see coolant temperature going above 60°C i should turn off my system and issue an RMA ticket if the cooler was under warranty. That's why i had the fans of it spinning 100% when coolant reached 45°C and the highest i've seen it climb during gaming was 48°C. And that's on 5800X3D - a CPU about 4 times more efficient than the 14900k. People don't realize how hot 60°C is. You shower with anywhere between 32°C to 45°C with 45 being the hottest women would take a shower. 60°C is more than enough to start degradeting the plastics and rubber inside the CPU block. If you dip your hand in 60°C water, be prepared for 2nd degree burns. It's enough to cause the rubber tubing to stretch and leak if you give it enough time (like 60-90 minutes).

 

The only way i am going liquid cooling on a CPU that draws more power than my GPU, is with big custom loop. 560mm THICK boy rad from EKWB, some nice 140mm fans, D5 pump and A BIG reservoir. Also the only way to use soft tube will be with tubes designed for floor heating.  

[Seedbobo]

8 hours ago, QuantumSingularity said:

Linus just recently published a video with the 14900k and a 600W chiller that was finally able to hold the CPU package under 50°C when gaming. In their video it managed to heat the water in the AIO to 10°C, considering it's being cooled via heat exchanger and a -23°C gas flowing through it. My Liquid Freezer II 360 doesn't have a thermal probe to check coolant temperature, but my old EVGA CLC 280 had and it had a warning to not exceed 55°C on coolant temperature for extended periods and if i see coolant temperature going above 60°C i should turn off my system and issue an RMA ticket if the cooler was under warranty. That's why i had the fans of it spinning 100% when coolant reached 45°C and the highest i've seen it climb during gaming was 48°C. And that's on 5800X3D - a CPU about 4 times more efficient than the 14900k. People don't realize how hot 60°C is. You shower with anywhere between 32°C to 45°C with 45 being the hottest women would take a shower. 60°C is more than enough to start degradeting the plastics and rubber inside the CPU block. If you dip your hand in 60°C water, be prepared for 2nd degree burns. It's enough to cause the rubber tubing to stretch and leak if you give it enough time (like 60-90 minutes).

 

The only way i am going liquid cooling on a CPU that draws more power than my GPU, is with big custom loop. 560mm THICK boy rad from EKWB, some nice 140mm fans, D5 pump and A BIG reservoir. Also the only way to use soft tube will be with tubes designed for floor heating.  

Damn so should I just go with a Flagship ryzen instead? If so I would like to know what cpu and motherboard would work best, I was also planning on using DDR5 6800MTs memory, let me know what you think. I also switched my AIO from the NZXT Kraken to the LT720 Deepcool 360mm. Thx

[brob]

8 hours ago, QuantumSingularity said:

Linus just recently published a video with the 14900k and a 600W chiller that was finally able to hold the CPU package under 50°C when gaming.

 

The current crop of Intel CPU are designed to operate around 100C. Zen 4 CPU are up there as well, with 90C+ considered normal.  There is not as much of a thermal difference between the CPU as many alarmists would have one believe.

 

[Seedbobo]

6 minutes ago, brob said:

 

The current crop of Intel CPU are designed to operate around 100C. Zen 4 CPU are up there as well, with 90C+ considered normal.  There is not as much of a thermal difference between the CPU as many alarmists would have one believe.

 

But can running an AIO with such high temps for prolonged time damage the aio? I have switched to a LT720 Deepcool AIO btw

[brob]

3 minutes ago, Seedbobo said:

But can running an AIO with such high temps for prolonged time damage the aio? I have switched to a LT720 Deepcool AIO btw

 

Over time the cooling fluid in AIO will break down. This is nothing new and it's one reason many prefer air towers over AIO when possible.

 

The LT720 is designed to handle the high thermal loads of current gen CPU. I've seen nothing to suggest that the design fails to do this. 

 

Any mechanical component has a designed lifetime. The LT720 has a 5 year warranty so I would expect it to last at least that long.

 

[QuantumSingularity]

57 minutes ago, brob said:

 

The current crop of Intel CPU are designed to operate around 100C. Zen 4 CPU are up there as well, with 90C+ considered normal.  There is not as much of a thermal difference between the CPU as many alarmists would have one believe.

 

We are not talking about CPU package temps here. We are talking about heat output. When you are building a server, you have to calculate the HVAC system capacity to cool it. You take the power that the system draws and multiply that by 3.41 and you get the heat generated in BTUs/hr. Same can be applied for each component. the 14900k regularly reaches 282W w/o overclocking so 282x3.41= 961BTU. That's the same as a small space heater or what an average microwave generates. It's doublr of what you body produces when you are working out in the gym. If you still think this is something to simply wave your hand at, it's not. I am certain that very soon we will be getting news and posts from people who killed their AIOs with the 14900k. 

The LT720 btw might be actually the only AIO capable of handling this furnace. It's rated for 315W and the only one i've seen rated for up to 75°C coolant temperature.

[brob]

4 minutes ago, QuantumSingularity said:

We are not talking about CPU package temps here. We are talking about heat output. When you are building a server, you have to calculate the HVAC system capacity to cool it. You take the power that the system draws and multiply that by 3.41 and you get the heat generated in BTUs/hr. Same can be applied for each component. the 14900k regularly reaches 282W w/o overclocking so 282x3.41= 961BTU. That's the same as a small space heater or what an average microwave generates. It's doublr of what you body produces when you are working out in the gym. If you still think this is something to simply wave your hand at, it's not. I am certain that very soon we will be getting news and posts from people who killed their AIOs with the 14900k. 

 

So you are saying that AIO engineers don't know what they are doing and we are going to see massive numbers of unit failures in short order?

[QuantumSingularity]

2 minutes ago, brob said:

 

So you are saying that AIO engineers don't know what they are doing and we are going to see massive numbers of unit failures in short order?

I am saying that the people who design these, design them with very specific heat output in mind. The design process usually takes years. And you can't simply implement improvements on existing model over a week. Certainly not improvements to comply with the heat output of a high-tier GPU in a CPU socket. Where AIOs fall behind custom loops is thermal mass. They have A LOT less water, which requires a lot less time to be heated up. 

 

[brob]

3 minutes ago, QuantumSingularity said:

I am saying that the people who design these, design them with very specific heat output in mind. The design process usually takes years. And you can't simply implement improvements on existing model over a week. Certainly not improvements to comply with the heat output of a high-tier GPU in a CPU socket. Where AIOs fall behind custom loops is thermal mass. They have A LOT less water, which requires a lot less time to be heated up. 

 

 

And this is why AMD and Intel distribute data and samples of new tech years before release. 

 

I'm sure that cheaply made AIO may have issues, but to suggest that reputable manufacturers have ignored the trend towards higher thermal loads doesn't strike me as reasonable.

[Seedbobo]

36 minutes ago, QuantumSingularity said:

We are not talking about CPU package temps here. We are talking about heat output. When you are building a server, you have to calculate the HVAC system capacity to cool it. You take the power that the system draws and multiply that by 3.41 and you get the heat generated in BTUs/hr. Same can be applied for each component. the 14900k regularly reaches 282W w/o overclocking so 282x3.41= 961BTU. That's the same as a small space heater or what an average microwave generates. It's doublr of what you body produces when you are working out in the gym. If you still think this is something to simply wave your hand at, it's not. I am certain that very soon we will be getting news and posts from people who killed their AIOs with the 14900k. 

The LT720 btw might be actually the only AIO capable of handling this furnace. It's rated for 315W and the only one i've seen rated for up to 75°C coolant temperature.

Do you recommend just trying a ryzen system then? I was focused on single-core performance and if something like the ryzen 9 7950x will run almost at the same performance with cooler temps maybe it isn't worth risking a screwed AIO in the future. What motherboard would you recommend for that cpu? And should I still go with the 2x32Gb of 6800MTs memory?

[brob]

11 minutes ago, Seedbobo said:

Do you recommend just trying a ryzen system then? I was focused on single-core performance and if something like the ryzen 9 7950x will run almost at the same performance with cooler temps maybe it isn't worth risking a screwed AIO in the future. What motherboard would you recommend for that cpu? And should I still go with the 2x32Gb of 6800MTs memory?

 

Look up the temps for a loaded 7950X. In the real world they are not that far off i9-13900K temps. Nothing wrong with choosing an7950X, but not because of some misguided worry about premature AIO failure.

 

AMD will likely not be able to run memory at 6800MTS. At least not without a lot of serious tweaking.

[Seedbobo]

10 minutes ago, brob said:

 

Look up the temps for a loaded 7950X. In the real world they are not that far off i9-13900K temps. Nothing wrong with choosing an7950X, but not because of some misguided worry about premature AIO failure.

 

AMD will likely not be able to run memory at 6800MTS. At least not without a lot of serious tweaking.

What Motherboard and DDr5 would you recommend with the 7950x then?

[brob]

14 minutes ago, Seedbobo said:

What Motherboard and DDr5 would you recommend with the 7950x then?

 

 

[QuantumSingularity]

14 hours ago, Seedbobo said:

Do you recommend just trying a ryzen system then? I was focused on single-core performance and if something like the ryzen 9 7950x will run almost at the same performance with cooler temps maybe it isn't worth risking a screwed AIO in the future. What motherboard would you recommend for that cpu? And should I still go with the 2x32Gb of 6800MTs memory?

We started on the wrong foot here. First of all - what are you gonna be using the system for and why do you think you need single core performance more than anything else? The number of programs and apps that prioritize single core/thread performance over multi gets lower and lower with each passing day. 

 

As for the cooling - with high-end chips and workstations, we generally prioritize stability and dependability before all else, including performance. And in this aspect NOTHING beats the regular old air cooling. Not AIOs, not custom loops. You can't get any more dependable and safe than going air. Liquid cooling is good, silent, looks cool, but all it takes is a single drop of coolant to drop somewhere where it is not supposed to be and bye bye project and system. AIOs and custom loops have multiple points of failure - fans, pumps, gaskets, radiators, monoblocks, hoses, fittings. The more points of failure you add the greater the chance that something might give up, especially when you are about to abuse it to hell and back. With air coolers there is a single point of failure - the fan. And you can easily build redundancy, by adding one or 2 or 3 more fans to the tower cooler. 

 

Don't get me wrong - i adore my LF II 360 and liquid cooling in general, but i have accepted the fact that at any one point my rig could suddenly shut down or not start up because a fail in the cooler led to a short, which killed my system. I am prepared to suffer the consequences. As always Linus again had a recent video about the reality of water cooling, where he lost 2 systems at once from a leakage. If you understand and accept that, there is nothing wrong with going AIO even on a Threadripper. I started this whole deep dive, because from your initial post i got the notion you have no experience with liquid cooling before and you have to know the risk, before diving head first, especially when you are gonna be an edgerunner.

[Why_Me]

On 10/26/2023 at 2:17 PM, Seedbobo said:

I'm planning on overclocking the 14900k as soon as I learn more about that and I just don't want it to run to hot. Thanks!

420 AIO, case to fit said AIO and a board with beefy VRM's if you don't want to suffer thermal throttling. 

1. Lian Li Lancool III

2. Arctic 420 AIO

3. A board similar to this one ...

https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MPG-Z790-CARBON-WIFI