DDR5 For Gaming

[Mista G]

I've been researching into DDR5 and can't make no sense of it all lately with conflicting feedback suggesting faster or slower? I mainly use my PC for gaming and looking at an AM5 upgrade and need advise on what memory I should be looking at. I've been looking at Corsair Vengeance RGB 5600MHz CL36 kits with EXPO, any help would be greatly appreciated.

[Eigenvektor]

As a general rule of thumb, faster = better and lower latency = better. For gaming lower latency is often more important than speed. But as @RONOTHAN## will surely point out, on DDR5 primary timings are not as important anymore (I'm still weak on details, so hopefully they can shed more light on that).

 

However, there are diminishing returns, meaning at some point you pay a lot more for smaller and smaller increments in performance. I think for Ryzen DDR5 6000 is the sweet spot, and going beyond that isn't sensible.

[Mista G]

6 minutes ago, Eigenvektor said:

As a general rule of thumb, faster = better and lower latency = better. For gaming lower latency is often more important than speed. But as @RONOTHAN## will surely point out, on DDR5 primary timings are not as important anymore (I'm still weak on details, so hopefully they can shed more light on that).

 

However, there are diminishing returns, meaning at some point you pay a lot more for smaller and smaller increments in performance. I think for Ryzen DDR5 6000 is the sweet spot, and going beyond that isn't sensible.

Thanks for the advice, I've been looking at a Corsair Vengeance RGB 5600 CL36 kit for £169... but, will search for a 6000 kit.

[RONOTHAN##]

3 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

I think for Ryzen DDR5 6000 is the sweet spot, and going beyond that isn't sensible.

It's more that faster kits just won't work. The Ryzen memory controller is weird, it's actually pretty strong, but it hits a pretty hard wall at somewhere between 6100 and 6400MT/s depending on the CPU, so 6000MT/s is more just the fastest speed that will reliably work on 98% of Ryzen 7000 series chips rather than an actual "sweet spot" like 3600MT/s was on Ryzen 3000/5000. 

 

3 hours ago, Eigenvektor said:

DDR5 primary timings are not as important anymore

They were never really that important to begin with on DDR3 and DDR4, memory controllers are generally designed to avoid the primary timings if possible because they are generally the loosest timings of any of the memory timings, but on DDR5 especially with how many bank groups there are and how loose the primary timings are to begin with, those timings are used even less frequently. I did end up doing a run in PYPrime 2B a while ago (one of the more consistent memory latency tests on Windows) with a bunch of different primary timings at DDR5 6000 with my 13700K, where the difference between DDR5 6000 CL36-36-36-96 and DDR5 6000 CL30-38-38-96 was 1% in terms of the score (10.5 seconds vs. 10.4 seconds). With Ryzen the difference will be even less with how their memory system is setup this generation. 

 

3 hours ago, Mista G said:

Thanks for the advice, I've been looking at a Corsair Vengeance RGB 5600 CL36 kit for £169... but, will search for a 6000 kit.

DDR5 5600 for a Ryzen 7000 CPU is still a fine option, realistically if I were going AM5 that would be the speed bin I'd be aiming for. The problem I have with that kit is the price, a 32GB 5600 CL36 kit should be in the range of £130-150, not the £170 that you're paying for it. That price is what I'd expect to be paying for a kit of 6000 CL36, not 5600 CL36. This kit exists, though if you do more price shopping I'm sure you could find something a bit better. 

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/wkytt6/adata-xpg-lancer-rgb-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr5-6000-cl40-memory-ax5u6000c4016g-dclarbk

[Mista G]

On 1/5/2023 at 7:15 PM, RONOTHAN## said:

It's more that faster kits just won't work. The Ryzen memory controller is weird, it's actually pretty strong, but it hits a pretty hard wall at somewhere between 6100 and 6400MT/s depending on the CPU, so 6000MT/s is more just the fastest speed that will reliably work on 98% of Ryzen 7000 series chips rather than an actual "sweet spot" like 3600MT/s was on Ryzen 3000/5000. 

 

They were never really that important to begin with on DDR3 and DDR4, memory controllers are generally designed to avoid the primary timings if possible because they are generally the loosest timings of any of the memory timings, but on DDR5 especially with how many bank groups there are and how loose the primary timings are to begin with, those timings are used even less frequently. I did end up doing a run in PYPrime 2B a while ago (one of the more consistent memory latency tests on Windows) with a bunch of different primary timings at DDR5 6000 with my 13700K, where the difference between DDR5 6000 CL36-36-36-96 and DDR5 6000 CL30-38-38-96 was 1% in terms of the score (10.5 seconds vs. 10.4 seconds). With Ryzen the difference will be even less with how their memory system is setup this generation. 

 

DDR5 5600 for a Ryzen 7000 CPU is still a fine option, realistically if I were going AM5 that would be the speed bin I'd be aiming for. The problem I have with that kit is the price, a 32GB 5600 CL36 kit should be in the range of £130-150, not the £170 that you're paying for it. That price is what I'd expect to be paying for a kit of 6000 CL36, not 5600 CL36. This kit exists, though if you do more price shopping I'm sure you could find something a bit better. 

https://uk.pcpartpicker.com/product/wkytt6/adata-xpg-lancer-rgb-32-gb-2-x-16-gb-ddr5-6000-cl40-memory-ax5u6000c4016g-dclarbk

 

Thank you for the detailed response. I'll keep shopping around based on your recommendations. 5600 CL36 or 6000 CL36 will do the job fine, I have seen ADATA kits floating about at those prices too. Are these quality kits like the Corsair?

[RONOTHAN##]

4 hours ago, Mista G said:

 

Thank you for the detailed response. I'll keep shopping around based on your recommendations. 5600 CL36 or 6000 CL36 will do the job fine, I have seen ADATA kits floating about at those prices too. Are these quality kits like the Corsair?

They're fine. For the most part RAM is RAM no matter who manufactured it, with the manufacturer only starting to make a difference when doing more fancy stuff like overclocking. If it makes you feel better, my strongest kit of overclocking DDR4 is an ADATA kit, and some of the early DDR5 world records were done with ADATA based memory kits

[Mista G]

14 hours ago, RONOTHAN## said:

They're fine. For the most part RAM is RAM no matter who manufactured it, with the manufacturer only starting to make a difference when doing more fancy stuff like overclocking. If it makes you feel better, my strongest kit of overclocking DDR4 is an ADATA kit, and some of the early DDR5 world records were done with ADATA based memory kits

Good to know. Prices here in the UK are far too high for those suggested kits, unfortunately the retailers have become the scalpers... I'll wait for drops, not in any rush at those prices and agree with your price recommendations.

[RONOTHAN##]

7 minutes ago, Mista G said:

Good to know. Prices here in the UK are far too high for those suggested kits, unfortunately the retailers have become the scalpers... I'll wait for drops, not in any rush at those prices and agree with your price recommendations.

Fair enough, good luck finding a kit then. Just know that generally brand doesn't really matter for picking a kit, they're all generally pretty similar, where even OEM kits are generally pretty good (a decent number of the DDR5 world records are actually on OEM DIMMs from SK Hynix, for reference). Just find who's cheapest for a particular speed bin and go for them. 

[Mista G]

8 hours ago, RONOTHAN## said:

Fair enough, good luck finding a kit then. Just know that generally brand doesn't really matter for picking a kit, they're all generally pretty similar, where even OEM kits are generally pretty good (a decent number of the DDR5 world records are actually on OEM DIMMs from SK Hynix, for reference). Just find who's cheapest for a particular speed bin and go for them. 

 

I have found a Kingston FURY Beast EXPO RGB 32GB (2x16GB) DDR5 PC5-44800C36 5600MHz Dual Channel Kit (KF556C36BBEAK2-32) for £149.99?

[ewitte]

Some programs benefit from latency while others benefit from bandwidth.  There is a helpful formula

 

RL=CL*2000/DR

DDR4 3600 CL16 - 16*2000/3600 = 8.9ns

DDR5 6000 CL36 - 36*2000/6000 = 12ns

 

You have to be just above DDR5 8000 to have both a latency and bandwidth advantage.

 

 

[RONOTHAN##]

1 hour ago, ewitte said:

Some programs benefit from latency while others benefit from bandwidth.  There is a helpful formula

 

RL=CL*2000/DR

DDR4 3600 CL16 - 16*2000/3600 = 8.9ns

DDR5 6000 CL36 - 36*2000/6000 = 12ns

 

You have to be just above DDR5 8000 to have both a latency and bandwidth advantage.

 

 

I do want to point out that while that formula exists, it's not actually useful in the real world. The absolute fastest a memory operation can be performed is actually tRCD + tRRDS + tCL, so an actual formula would have take that into account, plus the latency that actually matters is memory to core latency, not memory to controller latency like that calculates, and the memory to core latency has so many variables that affect it that formulas like these don't realistically do anything. 

 

Yeah DDR4 when fully tuned does still have a latency advantage if you're buying dual rank B die (single rank has higher latency than DDR5), but it's not because of that formula since practically that formula doesn't mean a whole lot. 

 

3 hours ago, Mista G said:

 

I have found a Kingston FURY Beast EXPO RGB 32GB (2x16GB) DDR5 PC5-44800C36 5600MHz Dual Channel Kit (KF556C36BBEAK2-32) for £149.99?

That's a good kit, and a decent price. I'd be fine running that

[Mista G]

1 hour ago, RONOTHAN## said:

I do want to point out that while that formula exists, it's not actually useful in the real world. The absolute fastest a memory operation can be performed is actually tRCD + tRRDS + tCL, so an actual formula would have take that into account, plus the latency that actually matters is memory to core latency, not memory to controller latency like that calculates, and the memory to core latency has so many variables that affect it that formulas like these don't realistically do anything. 

 

Yeah DDR4 when fully tuned does still have a latency advantage if you're buying dual rank B die (single rank has higher latency than DDR5), but it's not because of that formula since practically that formula doesn't mean a whole lot. 

 

That's a good kit, and a decent price. I'd be fine running that

 

Okie dokie... will put in an order now. Whilst we are on the subject, which CPU should I pair this with, the non-x or x variant as I was thinking a 7600 or 7700.

[RONOTHAN##]

Just now, Mista G said:

 

Okie dokie... will put in an order now. Whilst we are on the subject, which CPU should I pair this with, the non-x or x variant as I was thinking a 7600 or 7700.

The -X and the non-X chips seem to be performing near identical to each other once PBO is turned on, so I'd just get whatever is cheaper. The 7700 would be my personal pick, but both are solid options. 

[Mista G]

2 minutes ago, RONOTHAN## said:

The -X and the non-X chips seem to be performing near identical to each other once PBO is turned on, so I'd just get whatever is cheaper. The 7700 would be my personal pick, but both are solid options. 

That's what I'm leaning on 7700. Not sure if my Chromax U12A will fit on it, I'll have to check the box if it came with the bracket as it was a recent purchase.

[RONOTHAN##]

1 minute ago, Mista G said:

That's what I'm leaning on 7700. Not sure if my Chromax U12A will fit on it, I'll have to check the box if it came with the bracket as it was a recent purchase.

It should, AM5 for the most part uses the same mounting hardware as AM4 does, but I forget if the NH-U12A uses the stock AM4/AM5 backplate. You should be able to email Noctua in the event that it doesn't use the stock AM5 backplate. 

[Mista G]

1 minute ago, RONOTHAN## said:

It should, AM5 for the most part uses the same mounting hardware as AM4 does, but I forget if the NH-U12A uses the stock AM4/AM5 backplate. You should be able to email Noctua in the event that it doesn't use the stock AM5 backplate. 

I'll do some googling and I'll check the box as I'm sure I came across it in the installation booklets. I've placed the order for the memory, just got word that non-x variants of 7600 is priced up at £249 and 7700 is £349 but I have seen better deals for a 7600x for £225 and just before the holidays a 7700x was £317 odd? 7600x might be the better deal over a 7600.

[RONOTHAN##]

21 minutes ago, Mista G said:

I'll do some googling and I'll check the box as I'm sure I came across it in the installation booklets. I've placed the order for the memory, just got word that non-x variants of 7600 is priced up at £249 and 7700 is £349 but I have seen better deals for a 7600x for £225 and just before the holidays a 7700x was £317 odd? 7600x might be the better deal over a 7600.

That does happen some times, there was a period of about 2 weeks when the 5600X was cheaper than the 5600 for example, so this doesn't really surprise me. Just get whichever one is cheaper. 

[Mista G]

On 1/9/2023 at 8:32 PM, RONOTHAN## said:

That does happen some times, there was a period of about 2 weeks when the 5600X was cheaper than the 5600 for example, so this doesn't really surprise me. Just get whichever one is cheaper. 

Cancelled my original order and got the Kingston FURY Beast RGB 32GB (2x16GB) 6000MHz CL36 DDR5 Memory Kit for £160.

[05032-Mendicant-Bias]

I was doing some research, prices have come down a lot, but I'm not really sure of the importance of primary timings vs bandwidth. E.g. is a 5600CL36 better than a 6000CL40?
 

 

I found this older videos that makes comparison. It's with the Intel 12900K, likely the memory controller in an AMD processor would behave differently, but with this configuration speed seems to be more important than primary timings in many workloads. In some workloads like cyberpunk primary timings are more important than frequency.

I'm waiting for the release of the 13700F to make the upgrade, for now I think I'll aim to get 6000CL32, I'll wait for the premium on that to come down.

I'd really want a Gamer Nexus or an LTT video that make a deep dive on DDR5 performance with both AMD 7xxx and Intel 13xxx.

[Mista G]

7 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

I was doing some research, prices have come down a lot, but I'm not really sure of the importance of primary timings vs bandwidth. E.g. is a 5600CL36 better than a 6000CL40?
 

 

I found this older videos that makes comparison. It's with the Intel 12900K, likely the memory controller in an AMD processor would behave differently, but with this configuration speed seems to be more important than primary timings in many workloads. In some workloads like cyberpunk primary timings are more important than frequency.

I'm waiting for the release of the 13700F to make the upgrade, for now I think I'll aim to get 6000CL32, I'll wait for the premium on that to come down.

I'd really want a Gamer Nexus or an LTT video that make a deep dive on DDR5 performance with both AMD 7xxx and Intel 13xxx.

The lower latency does seem to be the way however your motherboard and processor will still need to support such frequencies and timings. DDR5 is still relatively new and I don't believe it has found it's place above DDR4 just yet, time will tell as prices are tumbling. EXPO does seem important to AMD and the usually XMP for Intel to avoid issues, Kingston appears to be the most tested on the QVL lists of motherboard manufactures. Still doing my research on all this.

[ewitte]

9 hours ago, 05032-Mendicant-Bias said:

I was doing some research, prices have come down a lot, but I'm not really sure of the importance of primary timings vs bandwidth. E.g. is a 5600CL36 better than a 6000CL40?

36*2000/5600 - 14.28ns

40*2000/6000 - 13.33ns (better)

 

What I just ordered is 2x32GB 6000CL30 which would be 10ns.  BTW DDR4 3600 C16 would be 8.89ns.

[Mista G]

1 hour ago, ewitte said:

36*2000/5600 - 14.28ns

40*2000/6000 - 13.33ns (better)

 

What I just ordered is 2x32GB 6000CL30 which would be 10ns.  BTW DDR4 3600 C16 would be 8.89ns.

Is it going to thrash DDR4 3600 CL16 for the price paid?

[ewitte]

2 hours ago, Mista G said:

Is it going to thrash DDR4 3600 CL16 for the price paid?

Apps that don't care about bandwidth and are sensitive to latency will be slower for memory but probably faster overall if they make use of extra CPU performance as well.

[Scorpion_3381]

im using ddr3 2x16gb and it works Great!!

[Mista G]

8 hours ago, ewitte said:

Apps that don't care about bandwidth and are sensitive to latency will be slower for memory but probably faster overall if they make use of extra CPU performance as well.

I'm hearing a lot about slow boot times with DDR5, I thought all this was resolved or is it still present on Ryzen 7000?

 

5600/6000 CL36 should be more than fast enough for todays tasks surely?