Upgrading dac

[Guest]

Im gonna upgrade my dac but some people say it makes a big difference while others say it barely makes a difference.

 

Im getting the schiit gungnir which is pretty high end. Reviewers say it sounds great and its sound quality is close to the yggdrasil which costs 2x more. Better dacs are supposed to be much more detailed and give a wider soundstage, which is something I want. I personally think its worth it based on what ive heard about it.

 

Im looking at the multibit version of the gungnir, and is there a black version? They seem to only have the silver available on their website.

[Bombastinator]

This might depend a bit on what you’re using now.  Just because what you are looking at is good doesn’t mean the thing you’ve already got is bad.

[cmndr]

In terms of raw sound quality (let's assume away EQ which can be done in software) it'll be largely negligible.

 

There are benefits to DACs but they're mostly in terms of features (e.g. EQ, convenient adjustement, more channels being processed, etc.) and not so much sound quality. 
If an improved DAC improves sound quality meaningfully, it means your old DAC was defective. Keep in mind we had DACs capable of processing lossless sound in the 1980s (those admittedly were imperfect) and this has been a solved problem for literally decades now. 

 

[Bombastinator]

So the question is, is it an upgrade or merely a side grade?  Sometimes sidegrades are useful. A rx580 isn’t much faster than an Nvidia 970 (ok, a little) and they have what is basically the same i/o.  But when I first upgraded from 8.1 to 10 my Nvidia card just went “nope” and turned itself off (rot in hell microsoft driver developers) which causes all kinds of problems. Whereas the 580 was still being sold, so it worked. 

Edited November 18, 2022 by Bombastinator

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, cmndr said:

In terms of raw sound quality (let's assume away EQ which can be done in software) it'll be largely negligible.

 

There are benefits to DACs but they're mostly in terms of features (e.g. EQ, convenient adjustement, more channels being processed, etc.) and not so much sound quality. 
If an improved DAC improves sound quality meaningfully, it means your old DAC was defective. Keep in mind we had DACs capable of processing lossless sound in the 1980s (those admittedly were imperfect) and this has been a solved problem for literally decades now. 

 

Im using the schiit modius which costs alot less than the gungnir. The gungnir is supposed to be better overall, better soundstage, detail, and stuff like that. 

 

im getting the audeze lcd5 which has amazing detail and soundstage, i dont want my dac to hold it back.

[cmndr]

19 minutes ago, rippy4500 said:

Im using the schiit modius which costs alot less than the gungnir. The gungnir is supposed to be better overall, better soundstage, detail, and stuff like that. 

 

im getting the audeze lcd5 which has amazing detail and soundstage, i dont want my dac to hold it back.

You should take most claims about sound stage and the like with a grain of salt if they're not showing repeatable measurements or the outcomes of blind tests. 
Sound stage is also hard to measure. 

I want to emphasize, for most people most of the $$$ should go to the headphones/speakers then room treatment (for speaker set ups) then the amp... then the DAC last. 

 

Unless you have an obviously defective part, a DAC should either be about getting more features as they're largely side grades. 

If you want to sanity check this - https://www.google.com/search?q=does+DAC+matter+audio

 

Now, there IS an argument that 24 bit sound (which requires different files usually) has some advantages. 16.7M volume levels instead of just 65k levels. This is useful if you don't want to just max out signal out and only adjust the source value (minimized dynamic range compression, but even then there's not much to be gained here). 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, cmndr said:

You should take most claims about sound stage and the like with a grain of salt if they're not showing repeatable measurements or the outcomes of blind tests. 
Sound stage is also hard to measure. 

I want to emphasize, for most people most of the $$$ should go to the headphones/speakers then room treatment (for speaker set ups) then the amp... then the DAC last. 

 

Unless you have an obviously defective part, a DAC should either be about getting more features as they're largely side grades. 

If you want to sanity check this - https://www.google.com/search?q=does+DAC+matter+audio

 

Now, there IS an argument that 24 bit sound (which requires different files usually) has some advantages. 16.7M volume levels instead of just 65k levels. This is useful if you don't want to just max out signal out and only adjust the source value (minimized dynamic range compression, but even then there's not much to be gained here). 

I am getting my headphones before anything else because I know they make the biggest difference, im getting the audeze lcd 5 which have really good detail retrieval. And I heard dacs can have a noticable effect on detail retrieval, idk how significant it is but its just another reason I think its a good idea to upgrade. I like having a really deep and detailed sound and being able to hear every last part of the song. This dac is supposed to be better at that than cheaper dacs like my modius. If I upgrade my amp im gonna look for a used schiit mjolnir, since i think its designed to be used with the gungnir and it will look nice with it asthetically since its the same size, unfortunately they took it off their website so I wanna wait and see if either I can find a used one or until they put it back.

[Bombastinator]

16 minutes ago, rippy4500 said:

I am getting my headphones before anything else because I know they make the biggest difference, im getting the audeze lcd 5 which have really good detail retrieval. And I heard dacs can have a noticable effect on detail retrieval, idk how significant it is but its just another reason I think its a good idea to upgrade. I like having a really deep and detailed sound and being able to hear every last part of the song. This dac is supposed to be better at that than cheaper dacs like my modius. If I upgrade my amp im gonna look for a used schiit mjolnir, since i think its designed to be used with the gungnir and it will look nice with it asthetically since its the same size, unfortunately they took it off their website so I wanna wait and see if either I can find a used one or until they put it back.

The way I read @cmndr’s comment was sort of “sure, but according to whom?  And to they have any proof? Because if they don’t the chances of BS are high”. My reading may not be very accurate and it was much more detailed, but that was the gist I got.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Bombastinator

[cmndr]

At the price point($3000+) of the audeze lcd 5, I'm going to mostly be quiet on saying "DAC doesn't matter much." In this price range you're at the point of diminishing returns and it's fine to chase after tail end effects. 

 

For most people (think headphones under $500) the extra cash is almost always better spent on better headphones. 
Just be aware that HOW you put your headphones on (so 1mm forward or backwards) will likely have a stronger impact between a "not bad" DAC and the best DAC on the market. 

I'll also admit I'm not well versed on up-market DACs, I mostly view them as snake oil, outside of the "edge case" of DACs that are parsing 2 channels of audio into 20 channels or something else that's ACTUALLY computationally intensive and not "we solved this problem 20 years ago and the microchip costs $2 to make"
 

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

The way I read @cmndr’s comment was sort of “sure, but according to whom?  And to they have any proof?”

More or less.

 

There's a TON of cases where things like audio bit rate are SWORN BY and then... 0 peer reviewed studies showing an effect and more than 0 showing that detecting the effect is rare or uncommon, even in people who did audio production professionally. 

Audio is one of those things where the human brain impacts things, and the ability to focus on details shifts (so on one listening you might hone in on the highs or the mids or some detail) from moment to moment along with its breadth or depth (focusing on one thing decreases the ability to detect other things), in speaker land moving your head 1" has a MUCH bigger impact than changing a wire and EVERYONE has super hearing until you cover their eyes and don't tell them what they're listening to (coat hanger beating a $10,000 cable in a test).

Reviews without measurement when there's theoretical reasons to say "hey, something else is going to matter 10-1000x as much" should be taken with a grain of salt. 

[johnt]

bro you are worrying about this way too much. contentment is a real thing, and so is diminishing marginal returns... especially with audio.

 

what are you even listening to that you need so much quality?

[Guest]

Just now, johnt said:

bro you are worrying about this way too much. contentment is a real thing, and so is diminishing marginal returns... especially with audio.

 

what are you even listening to that you need so much quality?

I dont really have a good explanation for why I need it other than I just want it. Theres nothing wrong with spending lots of money on something I like. I really enjoy listening to music, especially in the past couple years. And I wanna get into creating some music too.

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, cmndr said:

Just be aware that HOW you put your headphones on (so 1mm forward or backwards) will likely have a stronger impact between a "not bad" DAC and the best DAC on the market. 

Im still thinking about how im gonna get used to that, right now I just put on my headphones and adjust them until theyre comfortable and thats it.

13 minutes ago, cmndr said:

At the price point($3000+) of the audeze lcd 5, I'm going to mostly be quiet on saying "DAC doesn't matter much." In this price range you're at the point of diminishing returns and it's fine to chase after tail end effects. 
I'll also admit I'm not well versed on up-market DACs, I mostly view them as snake oil, outside of the "edge case" of DACs that are parsing 2 channels of audio into 20 channels or something else that's ACTUALLY computationally intensive and not "we solved this problem 20 years ago and the microchip costs $2 to make"

I believe upgrading my amp will still have a bigger effect on the sound than my dac will, its just that im not sure what to go with since the one I want isnt available anymore so thats why I want the dac first.

[Bombastinator]

When I was a kid it was all about Opera.  My dad actually hand built a stereo (I’ve got the soldering gun he used in my tool box) to get something better.  I thought his opera records (he had hundreds) still sounded awful.  In the early 2000s they figured out why.  Opera houses are built for opera.  They have subsonic reverberations and stuff that just can’t be recorded.  To really get why there are opera fans you have to see it live.   I went to see povarotti in New York when I was a kid because my grandma (who was also an opera fan like my dad) took me.  That man no joke melted my face.  I was also at the WHO concert in Italy in the 80’s.  I even had awesome “seats” on an ornamental balcony that probably hadn’t been walked on since the builders made it I don’t even know how many hundred years ago.  Supposed to be one of the greatest rock concerts ever.  It didn’t come close.  The opera fans would do just about anything to get that concert hall sound, but it just wasn’t in the records.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Bombastinator

[spartaman64]

Ive heard differences in dacs but its very minimal and a lot of people say its the analog preamp section of the dac that's making the difference. I'd personally prioritize an amp upgrade before the dac. 

 

[CTR640]

"Upgrading" the DAC just for what? Exactly, as long as you don't know why you want this DAC, you're wasting the money.

 

Quote

Better dacs are supposed to be much more detailed and give a wider soundstage, which is something I want.

That's not true, sorry but that's really not true at all. Headphones does that, not DACs. Here I have many headphones and the Fidelio X2HR probably got the most wide soundstage of my whole collection. The Klipsch HP3 got a holographic soundstage, Meze 109 Pro got a nice wide soundstage too, not very wide but still damn nice. The headphone with the least soundstage is probably the Tygr. One thing is for certain: every headphone got their own sound signature and no DAC can turn a Sennheiser HD600 into a Sennheiser HE-1.

 

Audeze LCD5 costs between €4999 and €5669, Sorry but that's insane for one single headphone. My whole collection doesn't even come close in the cost of the LCD5 lol

[DEADPOOLSMOM]

13 hours ago, rippy4500 said:

Im still thinking about how im gonna get used to that, right now I just put on my headphones and adjust them until theyre comfortable and thats it.

I believe upgrading my amp will still have a bigger effect on the sound than my dac will, its just that im not sure what to go with since the one I want isnt available anymore so thats why I want the dac first.

Your getting 4.5k headphones but don't want to upgrade your GTX 970? 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, CTR640 said:

"Upgrading" the DAC just for what? Exactly, as long as you don't know why you want this DAC, you're wasting the money.

 

That's not true, sorry but that's really not true at all. Headphones does that, not DACs. Here I have many headphones and the Fidelio X2HR probably got the most wide soundstage of my whole collection. The Klipsch HP3 got a holographic soundstage, Meze 109 Pro got a nice wide soundstage too, not very wide but still damn nice. The headphone with the least soundstage is probably the Tygr. One thing is for certain: every headphone got their own sound signature and no DAC can turn a Sennheiser HD600 into a Sennheiser HE-1.

 

Audeze LCD5 costs between €4999 and €5669, Sorry but that's insane for one single headphone. My whole collection doesn't even come close in the cost of the LCD5 lol

Ok my plans may have changed, I emailed schiit about the amp I want (the mjolnir 2) and they said theyre gonna release a mjolnir 3, although they said they cant go into any detail about it.

As for dac now I dont know, maybe ill just keep my current one.

 

because the mjolnir was discontinued i didnt know what to go with, so i decided id get a dac first. But now im waiting for the mjolnir 3.

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, ShawtyT30beTHICCC said:

Your getting 4.5k headphones but don't want to upgrade your GTX 970? 

Im still working on that lol

[saintlouisbagels]

DACs are among the last things you should consider upgrading (if you already have a perfectly good one). The objective audible difference is so minuscule and imperceptible to human hearing. They're almost on the same level as audiophile cables, power conditioners, etc.

 

Always upgrade the headphone first if you want "better" sound. Although you're really hitting diminishing returns after $1000. At that point, you're going for very specific sound signatures. Like I don't enjoy the sound of the HD800 whatsoever, but the Ether CX Flow just oozes sex in my ears.

[johnt]

On 11/17/2022 at 8:16 PM, rippy4500 said:

Theres nothing wrong with spending lots of money on something I like.

I guess idk your income situation. Spending money on a hobby is not a crime... I spent german car money on audio gear and I'm at a point where I don't want to see others making the same mistakes lol

 

I have unused subs, DACs, receivers, headphones, cables cables cables and NONE of it matters. I have a single home pod connected to my apple tv, i use a $30 monoprice headphone at work, and the original micca origen in my drawer bc driver support was awful since I bought it, my XDA2 has a dying DAC two years after purchase... junk... but it has a remote that can kill a beast! And it's effing massive.

 

The high end audio industry is very unforgiving. A lot of the stuff I bought is no longer supported or just doesn't work for as long as you would think. The higher end you go, the more revealing it is and it's easier to spot where audio engineers make mistakes. It's like listening to music isn't supposed to be this scientific. The companies sprout so much snake oil and "improve" products so much year over year. It's very much like 4k/8k and source input. There is so much quality in current products that most recording studios aren't able to keep up with it, and they don't even need to bc your ears can't even tell the difference after a certain point.

 

Just be careful. You can lose your shirt chasing audio gear. There is always something better.

 

[Tigerleon]

I can tell you right now that a DAC sidegrade is not nearly as effective as buying a new pair of headphones.

[KTown]

The single biggest difference in DAC sound is in the analog output stage. Most DACs regardless of cost almost all use the same DAC chips to process the digital signal but the output stage is where the sound quality is most impacted and the output stage is proprietary to each manufacturer. In order to hear the sound quality difference between DACs requires a revealing sound system as the sonic differences between DACs can be subtle overall. If your audio system is not very revealing then you probably wont hear any meaningful impact in the sound quality from one dac to another (hence the common comment you won't hear a difference). If you are young, have good hearing and have a revealing system then you will probably hear a sound difference between DACs but it maybe subtle. As others have stated best to spend money on  headphones/speaker upgrades followed by an amplifier that can properly drive the headphones/speakers before spending big $ on a DAC.