Linux NOT an OS for non-advanced users that have neither an IT department NOR an official tech support team (not random help threads) backing it.

[wasab]

After one or two years, all the headaches i ran into when i first started using linux mostly disappear. I used to bang my head into the wall over simple things like no execute permission, did not know what mounting my 2ndary drive means, and my terminal is not launch in the correct working directory. It is mostly an user unfamiliarity to be frank. 

 

I think it was my 3rd semester in college that I became linux proficient. Took an entire class about operating system fundenmentals. Learned a lot about Linux gnu libc, gnu gdb debugger, gnu tools, makefile, Posix compliant API development for the Unix/Unix like environment(class used ubuntu as the target operating system) but more importantly, great deal about the terminal. The capstone final class project was literally about writing my very own terminal emulator, with some rudimentary bash script interpreter functionality. 

 

It really made me appreciate the terminal and the entire operating system a lot more. The windows cmd is downright crap in comparison.

[bluesummer]

On 8/7/2022 at 2:07 PM, Dutch_Master said:

Well, that's the beauty of Linux: nobody forces you to use it. Unlike some other OSes

 

If Linux is not for you, fine, it's not for you. But don't generalise and claim all 'normies' can't use Linux, just because. Do yourself a favour and conduct an experiment: install Linux on a random system and use it. Write down every issue you encounter. When you're done, wipe the drive and repeat with Win-OS. Every time you run into something that's not supported OOTB, write it down. When you're done again, compare the lists. I predict there's not a whole lot of difference between them. Some issues will differ, sure, but overall the result will probably be within the margin of error.

 

Remember, some of the issues Linus ranted about in the video you linked were of his own making, by not RTFM. Or ask for advise from those in his staff that know their way in Linux-land.

 

PS: Manjaro, and other RPM based distro's, are notorious for "dependency hell" as you described. Debian based distro's use apt, which is vastly superior in conflict package management resolution. Have you tried Mint, Ubuntu or even Devuan?

This is all very true, people claim Linux has more "issues", but when you take into account not only the perks of Linux and Cons of Windows, and then take into account Windows' "issues" it really becomes apparent why so many people use Linux. 

 

I also wholeheartedly agree with the whole "no one's forcing you to use it". You can really make it your own and that's part of what's so amazing about open source. I myself am a Linux user and I've kindly recommended Linux to friends and family, and when they tell me they aren't interested, I back off. So many think every Linux user is some bitter gatekeeper who hates Windows, and yes there are those types in the community, but there a fraction of a percent, if anything they've been an extreme help in my jump to Arch a few years ago. 

 

What it really comes down to with Linux is just compatibility, which is what makes it great for so many use cases and bad for many others, same with Windows. Once we one day see "the year of the Linux desktop" like I hope, people will start to see how cool Linux really is. I'd even argue for the general public who isn't playing games or doing video/photo/audio work, Linux actually works better because truth is, most people on earth are running very weak systems, and only need a suite of Office apps and a web browser. Linux can actually help in this by decreasing e-waste with fewer people buying new computers to keep up with a now very bloated Windows, and can even be better for a lot of these use cases because of the added benefit of more privacy and security. I mean, just look at Chromebooks for example, they run horrible proprietary software and have loads of anti-consumer restrictions, yet they still sell, because they work for what people need them for. 

 

One day, when people realize how much of a mess Windows can be, with the bloat, surveillance and telemetry, anti-consumer practices of damn near forcing the use of garbage like Edge, and the inconvenience of searching for specific installers and the like, Linux may see a real uprising. And honestly in the end, Linux really isn't that hard to use if you're determined to use it, I've used Arch with few hitches for years after watching and reading some guides and old forum posts, and my friend is a hardcore power user after using it for around 4-5 years. 

 

OP's point that Linux isn't inherently user-friendly I still think holds true, but that doesn't mean Linux is for the advanced user ONLY, newbs can always learn, especially with very beginner friendly distros like Ubuntu and Mint. Hell, even gaming is super viable on Linux for the average gamer, basically my entire Steam library of nearly 300 games worked either OOTB or with very minor tweaks if the issues weren't anti-cheat related. And with Steam Deck, anti-cheat may not even be an issue, with more and more games supporting Proton. And for retro gamers, Linux may even work BETTER than Windows due to how efficient and stable Linux is. 

 

Those are my two cents, all in all Linux in my opinion is good for everyone if you take time to learn it, even if it can be frustrating due to lack of support at times. 

[dragonfly43]

Life is not just games, words, spreadsheet ...
Linux is much more ubiquitous than Windows, from the tiniest IOT devices to the mightiest super computers
it's all Linux.
Love your Windows as much you like but if you think of making a career in IT ... think Linux.

After the madness of Y2K people got laid off like crazy, at 55 year old, I just kept going, because the 
platform I worked on was not easy to master (it's every bit as complicated as Linux/Unix).  
Do you think a Windows guy would find a job if laid off at  55 ? At the interview there will be hundreds
who show up, young and willing to work for cheaper pay.

[RollyShed]

On 8/8/2022 at 8:46 AM, pixelated_sunglasses said:

No one I've "spoken" to acknowledge that Linux just isn't something for non-advanced user to simply switch to

 

You still haven't spoken to me..... or the other 50 users I know of.

 

Another Linux Mint  computer out the door today. He insisted that I do his wife's one last week.

 

So common is 4 or 5 clicks to get something done in Windows and 2 clicks in Linux, and you can easily see what is happening.

 

Just basic things. Switching OFF, I need a magnifying glass to see where Windows puts it but with Linux, a nice large RED "click here" followed by a good sized panel "Suspend, Restart, Cancel, Shut Down".

 

You can read what it suggests and find things easily which means it is an easy to use system.

[TorC]

BS to your premise as stated in title of thread!

 

Give a kid a laptop with basic Linux on it without exposing that child to any other OS. See what happens down the road.

 

It is only because of being exposed to M$ (or any other computer OS) first that your thread's assertions can be said to be hold water.

[Sarra]

Every time I sit down at my computer at work, an i3 8th gen Dell with a single stick of RAM, running Win 10, with McAfee virus bloatware, AutoDesk permanently running, and Microsoft Teams, I cringe so hard it hurts.

 

Then, when Chrome finally loads, that cringe becomes stuck, until I clock out at the end of the day.

 

The worst thing is, Linux would run so much smoother on that machine, and it would be safer, but I'm sure the buffoons in IT would still manage to figure out how to get McAfee Virus Inviter scanner running on it and ruin the entire thing anyway.

[rklrkl64]

I think a lot depends on what you software you typically use. The vast majority of users who run Linux for the first time are "refugees" from Windows because all the major OEMs pre-install Windows on almost their entire desktop/laptop range. As we know, Linux is a functionally different OS from Windows - different kernel, different filing system, different libraries, different applications and different desktops UIs (yes, plural, which complicates things!). It is *not* a like-for-like replacement for Windows and a Windows user who comes to Linux and expects it to behave like Windows is going to be disappointed - there is a learning curve there!

 

Having said that, if the user does basic tasks on Windows (Web, office suite, streaming/video/music playback, e-mail and, yes, even most games now), then Linux is a possible alternative to Windows. However, a) the lack of Linux pre-installs is a very high barrier to entry [the vast majority of Windows users have never installed an OS from scratch (yes, that includes Windows itself!)] and b) there is a learning curve and people are scared of that ("Windows works for me, why would I jump into the unknown with Linux and have to spend time working out how to use it?").

 

There is a small glimmer of hope with the Steam Deck and particularly SteamOS being a bit of Linux "trojan horse" though. Having a full Linux x86_64 distro pre-installed on a console-like consumer device that will sell over 1m units is unprecedented. When SteamOS 3 is released as an ISO that can run on non-Deck hardware, I can see users installing it on SFF boxes to play games in their living room/bedroom hooked up to a big TV. Eventually, we may even see a "Steam Machine 2" and surely a Deck-like Steam Controller 2 to go with it?

 

The trojan horse here is SteamOS's Desktop Mode - there will be increasing demand to get applications available as Flatpaks, including closed source software. Eventually, that might pressure Windows closed source software (yes, including games) to be ported natively to Linux, but I think you'd need 10m+ SteamOS users for that to happen, which is many years away.

 

TL:DR: Until Linux is pre-installed on a decent (say, 5%) of major OEM desktops/laptops, we'll be stuck in a vicious cycle of users not even knowing about Linux, let alone actually using it, which in turn keeps demand for native Linux applications low and around we go again. Proton and SteamOS are the first steps in a very long road to trying to break that cycle.

 

 

[RollyShed]

5 hours ago, rklrkl64 said:

 a Windows user who comes to Linux and expects it to behave like Windows is going to be disappointed - there is a learning curve there!

NO.

Windows one day Linux the next and simply carried on using her computer as if nothing had happened except it had become reliable. Another user, couldn't get her assignments done, switched to Linux, got her qualifications and a job.

 

Someone switching from Win 7 to 8, that is a major, going from semi-logical to illogical.

5 hours ago, rklrkl64 said:

 However, a) the lack of Linux pre-installs is a very high barrier to entry [the vast majority of Windows users have never installed an OS from scratch (yes, that includes Windows itself!)]

That is the major problem.

 

Ease of use - If a problem, it is that Linux is easier and more logical.

Reliability - I've seen it again and again. MS destroying things but no problems on Linux. Others simply finding too much of a problem trying to sort out Windows or importantly, it is going slower and slower and taking up too much space.

 

Windows default apps? Nothing much
Linux default apps? Just about everything. Web browser, office suite, PDF reader and editor, sound and video players, etc. etc.