Changing/upgrading to a different dac/amp

[CTR640]

So it's been almost like a year or a little less (times really fly fast by lol) since I got my Fiio K5 Pro that's been recommended because of my Beyerdynamics with high impedance. I no longer own the DT770/880 and the only one high impedance headphone I got is the Amiron Home. The rest of the headphones has been purchased months after the K5 Pro. This dac/amp is according to the webz a more analytical one if that's correct and I'm open for changing or upgrading to a different dac/amp and I would like to hear ya thoughts or recommendations. What about iFi ZEN? Or are there other better ones? I would like a more smooth treble and better bass. If possible, I would like a single unit dac. Although I can order usb-c to 5V-15V DC cables because I got this:

https://cdn.webshopapp.com/shops/81256/files/329917233/pepper-jobs-pd9000-4-poorts-dual-usb-c-power-deliv.jpg

So if a stack is really necessary, alright.

All ports are free. Due to a desk attachment, I've hidden the power strip and all cables for example my PC, monitor and this PD setup goes in a hole of the desk attachment. I like to keep my shit more clean and organized lol. One power outlet is free for the future 42" OLED.

 

So, should I keep my K5P or change? And the budget... atleast a bit cheaper than a  Lamborgini or something lol, so under €500? Or much less like max of €300?

[ShearMe]

8 hours ago, CTR640 said:

I would like a more smooth treble and better bass.

I think different headphones are going to give you a bigger change in sound profile than the dac/amp, if that's truly what you're after.

[Spuriae]

Pure objectivist talk: sonic differences are unlikely to be appreciable between the K5 Pro and a different (better measured electrical performance) DAC/Amp, except under some relatively abnormal conditions (very high dynamic range content, extreme EQ, low setting on volume control, test signals, etc.). If you're happy with your K5 Pro and aren't hearing any noise or distortion, there might not be a great reason to switch. Changes in headphones are always going to be more significant than changes in electronics once the electronics are good enough.

 

If you have an equalizer that supports it, try adding a filter with (frequency=85Hz gain=2.5dB Q=0.5) to your current setup and see if you prefer the sound. That will simulate the frequency response change that a particularly warm tube amp (Bottlehead Crack) would have on the Amiron Home. I would recommend going the EQ route instead of buying a new tube amp, even if you did prefer the sound, but up to you. Tubes look cool.

 

The DAC in the Zen is better than the K5 (but still nowhere near the performance of $100 standalone DACs) and the amplifier section is worse than the K5.

 

For purely better objective performance, the Topping DX3 Pro+ is probably the best all-around all-in-one device in your budget (or perhaps at any budget; I'm not aware of any straight upgrades in the DAC/Amp space).

[CTR640]

11 hours ago, ShearMe said:

I think different headphones are going to give you a bigger change in sound profile than the dac/amp, if that's truly what you're after.

That's true indeed! All my headphones sounds completely different from each other and I do wonder why there are others spending €1000-10K on a dac/amp. Out of sheer curiosity.

 

10 hours ago, Nimrodor said:

Pure objectivist talk: sonic differences are unlikely to be appreciable between the K5 Pro and a different (better measured electrical performance) DAC/Amp, except under some relatively abnormal conditions (very high dynamic range content, extreme EQ, low setting on volume control, test signals, etc.). If you're happy with your K5 Pro and aren't hearing any noise or distortion, there might not be a great reason to switch. Changes in headphones are always going to be more significant than changes in electronics once the electronics are good enough.

 

If you have an equalizer that supports it, try adding a filter with (frequency=85Hz gain=2.5dB Q=0.5) to your current setup and see if you prefer the sound. That will simulate the frequency response change that a particularly warm tube amp (Bottlehead Crack) would have on the Amiron Home. I would recommend going the EQ route instead of buying a new tube amp, even if you did prefer the sound, but up to you. Tubes look cool.

 

The DAC in the Zen is better than the K5 (but still nowhere near the performance of $100 standalone DACs) and the amplifier section is worse than the K5.

 

For purely better objective performance, the Topping DX3 Pro+ is probably the best all-around all-in-one device in your budget (or perhaps at any budget; I'm not aware of any straight upgrades in the DAC/Amp space).

I indeed do no hear any noise or distortion. Sound is all clean and crisp. I only wonder why others have mentioned the iFi ZEN has better sounds than the K5 and by how much.

 

For which app is that filter meant to use? I have the APO Equalizer with Peace addon but haven't used it in months. I always have wondered how tube amps does sound. Regarding the amplifier section being worse than the K5, you mean powering difficult headphones?

 

The Topping DX3 Pro+ is interesting, also because it has BT too. I can consider this one too.

[Spuriae]

3 hours ago, CTR640 said:

I only wonder why others have mentioned the iFi ZEN has better sounds than the K5 and by how much.

This is one of those neverending debates in audio. Objectivists take a scientific approach to audio and conclude that reported differences in sound between amplifiers that shouldn't have any physical justification for sounding different and don't sound different in blind tests is probably placebo effect or confirmation bias; subjectivists argue that not all aspects of sound are represented in the measurements, and that controlled blind testing scenarios don't reasonably reproduce accurate listening experiences.

 

I wish I could give you a good source to learn more, but articles on the topic generally involve a writer with an obvious bias for one of the sides creating a straw man argument for the other and trying to tear it down. Here are two articles with two authors claiming to be moderates but having a clear preference for one of the camps, if you're interested. Subjective: Robert Harley (Stereophile), Objective: nwavguy (O2 amplifier designer)

 

I'm firmly in the objectivist camp when it comes to electronics. With headphones I'm an objectivist as well, but the data there shows that different people shouldn't be expected to hear the same things from the same headphones because their head and ear shapes will cause the headphones to color the sound differently.

 

With respect to the iFi ZEN, I'd argue that it comes down to Thorsten being a well-respected electronics designer, iFi and AMR being traditionally expensive audio brands, and the ZEN name being reminiscent of Nelson Pass's designs, all leading to listeners having a preconceived expectation for the product to sound good.

 

This forum tends to skew a bit more subjectivist, though, so I hope you get some opinions to the contrary.

4 hours ago, CTR640 said:

For which app is that filter meant to use? I have the APO Equalizer with Peace addon but haven't used it in months. I always have wondered how tube amps does sound. Regarding the amplifier section being worse than the K5, you mean powering difficult headphones?

I was using Peace.

 

From a measurement point of view, output impedance and frequency roll-off are probably the most immediately audible aspects of non-hybrid tube amps. That filter replicates the reduced bass damping that the Crack's output impedance would introduce. I would argue that a well-designed tube amp will sound basically the same as a well-designed transistor amp under most circumstances.

 

The K5 amplifier has more power and less distortion and noise than the Zen at all output levels. One advantage the Zen has is an analog volume control, which does reduce the noise at lower volume levels when paired with a noisier DAC.

[CTR640]

@Nimrodor

It is indeed a never-ending debates in audio. I think I'll stick to my K5P and I like it how the design is so and black because as mentioned earlier, I want to keep my desk as clean and organized as possible and it's hardly noticeable too. (Except the blue light when it's turned on lol)

 

Did you use Eq One Third Octave? The frequency was set at 80 so I changed it to 85 and used your settings.

Do you know which frequencies are used for vocals? I have one headphone and the vocals are pretty loud which I don't like.

 

Quote

The K5 amplifier has more power and less distortion and noise than the Zen at all output levels.

Some headphones tend to sound better and more pleasant at low volume, like my Meze 99 Classics on my K5P.

 

Do you own or have owned the DX30+?

[Spuriae]

40 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

Did you use Eq One Third Octave? The frequency was set at 80 so I changed it to 85 and used your settings.

I just changed one of the filters on the default setting to 85. EQ One Third Octave is just there to give an EQ with more filters.

43 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

Do you know which frequencies are used for vocals? I have one headphone and the vocals are pretty loud which I don't like.

Vocal range fundamental frequencies ("notes") can be anywhere 100-1000Hz. Typical singing/talking frequencies are mostly in the 200-400 range.

 

Timbre-wise vowels have additional content around 1kHz and consonants will be all throughout the treble. EQing a broad dip around 1kHz will make vocals sound less "forward" if that's the issue you're having (I suspect that's the issue if it's particularly vocals that are problematic but not other instruments playing the same notes).

59 minutes ago, CTR640 said:

Some headphones tend to sound better and more pleasant at low volume, like my Meze 99 Classics on my K5P.

It has more power (more max volume). When the volumes of both amplifiers are matched digitally (such as with Windows volume control) so the electrical output (not the setting) is at the same level, the K5's amplifier will still have less noise and distortion. If using the built-in volume knob and onboard DACs of either unit, the Zen will have lower noise but still higher distortion.

1 hour ago, CTR640 said:

Do you own or have owned the DX30+?

No. I am familiar with the amplifier topologies used in Topping's amplifiers since I've designed and modelled all of them (or a very similar circuit) at some point, but have not personally owned or listened to any of them. My recommendations are entirely based on features, measurements, and my understanding of the circuits used. This applies to amplifiers I have heard too, since except under atypical conditions, with only a few exceptions I don't hear any significant difference between them (and the minor differences I have heard in the past have disappeared when the comparison was done blind).

 

From a subjective point of view the amplifier stage of the DX3Pro+ is closely related to the one used in the Schiit Magnius (TPA6120 nested feedback), but optimized for significantly better single-ended performance.

[CTR640]

On 11/24/2021 at 7:55 PM, Nimrodor said:

I just changed one of the filters on the default setting to 85. EQ One Third Octave is just there to give an EQ with more filters.

Vocal range fundamental frequencies ("notes") can be anywhere 100-1000Hz. Typical singing/talking frequencies are mostly in the 200-400 range.

 

Timbre-wise vowels have additional content around 1kHz and consonants will be all throughout the treble. EQing a broad dip around 1kHz will make vocals sound less "forward" if that's the issue you're having (I suspect that's the issue if it's particularly vocals that are problematic but not other instruments playing the same notes).

It has more power (more max volume). When the volumes of both amplifiers are matched digitally (such as with Windows volume control) so the electrical output (not the setting) is at the same level, the K5's amplifier will still have less noise and distortion. If using the built-in volume knob and onboard DACs of either unit, the Zen will have lower noise but still higher distortion.

No. I am familiar with the amplifier topologies used in Topping's amplifiers since I've designed and modelled all of them (or a very similar circuit) at some point, but have not personally owned or listened to any of them. My recommendations are entirely based on features, measurements, and my understanding of the circuits used. This applies to amplifiers I have heard too, since except under atypical conditions, with only a few exceptions I don't hear any significant difference between them (and the minor differences I have heard in the past have disappeared when the comparison was done blind).

 

From a subjective point of view the amplifier stage of the DX3Pro+ is closely related to the one used in the Schiit Magnius (TPA6120 nested feedback), but optimized for significantly better single-ended performance.

I have been playing with it months ago but I tend to prefer to use without EQ. But I can find filters for it on the net.

 

And yes, it's the typical talking I have a problem with some headphones. The Amiron Home has recessed vocals. To get an idea: I'm not sure if you have played GTAV/O but the voices like from Agent 14 and Lester are recessed in the Amiron Home and in other headphones they are evelated. That's the best description I can give.

 

Regarding the D30 Pro+, is it powerfull too for high impedance headphone? I still miss my DT880. I might re-buy it and it will probably be the Manufakturer edition. Just only not sure if 250ohm or 600ohm. Maybe @rice gurucan help me choose?

[rice guru]

The k5 pro dac is fine I believe you can use it still as a DAC. For the most part amp makes more of a difference. So you could upgrade your amp nwo dac later. Being in Europe you do have a specific brand , lake people available to you. To me they are the best European schiit alternative. They go for a more lean fuller sound as a house sound less analytical like the the Chinese brands tend to do. Within your budget the lake people g103 is available and is a very capable amp. It's unfortunately not as clean as any topping amp. Where topping tend to irk me personally is the fact that they are basically selling the same product at 5 different price points as all their amps and DACs these days sound the same. Which if you liem the topping house soundthats on you it's good but nothing special. Very neutral with nothing offensive. You generally get a pretty good product. 

 

[CTR640]

22 minutes ago, rice guru said:

The k5 pro dac is fine I believe you can use it still as a DAC. For the most part amp makes more of a difference. So you could upgrade your amp nwo dac later. Being in Europe you do have a specific brand , lake people available to you. To me they are the best European schiit alternative. They go for a more lean fuller sound as a house sound less analytical like the the Chinese brands tend to do. Within your budget the lake people g103 is available and is a very capable amp. It's unfortunately not as clean as any topping amp. Where topping tend to irk me personally is the fact that they are basically selling the same product at 5 different price points as all their amps and DACs these days sound the same. Which if you liem the topping house soundthats on you it's good but nothing special. Very neutral with nothing offensive. You generally get a pretty good product. 

 

Lake people... Lol, I thought it must be a typo but it's a real name. There is Schiit and now Lake people, what's next Crimeariver?

I see the Lake people has the 3-pin power connector, is that correct? I'll have to wait for any device with that power connector because I can't add another one due to my desk. Once I upgrade to a new tv, I have one of that power connector free. Any other alternatives? Topping or Shit? I can have two devices with the power connector the K5P use, the 5V-15VDC. So a stack is possible now.