Self driving cars are technologically impressive but are a poor solution.

[YoungBlade]

16 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

I also recently learned about something called "jaywalking" which honestly did surprise me, which was actually "invented" by the car industry,  which honestly did surprise me... as a European this is unthinkable,  pedestrians always have priority here, its the cars that have to give way -- its just a completey different,  may I say more logical,  "human friendly " mindset...

You misunderstood the idea of jaywalking. First, it's culturally acceptable - everyone does it and almost no one cares. Second, pedestrians always have the right of way. If a car hits a pedestrian, it's assumed that the driver is at fault unless it can be demonstrated that the pedestrian was particularly careless or even intended to be hit. Third, it's illegal for the same reason seat belts are legally required: it's a safety hazard to walk in front of heavy, fast moving objects.

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, YoungBlade said:

You misunderstood the idea of jaywalking. First, it's culturally acceptable - everyone does it and almost no one cares. Second, pedestrians always have the right of way. If a car hits a pedestrian, it's assumed that the driver is at fault unless it can be demonstrated that the pedestrian was particularly careless or even intended to be hit

I mean that's exactly how it is here ... it's very possible the video i saw about it was just full of shit ... although even the comments seemed to suggest its actually a thing... might be also regional differences,  i dunno (still the jaywalking law seems to be a very strange,  America specific law... but as said maybe most of what I heard was bs... i certainly didn't have the impression that's a thing when I was in NYC, even though traffic there can be scary, but not untypical for big cities everywhere in the world tbh)

 

Edit: video in question 

 

 

 

The comments are worth reading too... for example:

"nobody jaywalks in london, because there's no such thing as jaywalking in london. jaywalking is an american concept. in england you merely cross the street."

 

So the fact there is even the concept of "jaywalking" is just really sus for a none American citizen... 

 

And the same goes for Simon "smash that thumbs down button " Whistler,  on the other hand he doesn't strike me as someone who is *purposefully* lying .

 

[YoungBlade]

15 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

I mean that's exactly how it is here ... it's very possible the video i saw about it was just full of shit ... although even the comments seemed to suggest its actually a thing... might be also regional differences,  i dunno (still the jaywalking law seems to be a very strange,  America specific law... but as said maybe most of what I heard was bs... i certainly didn't have the impression that's a thing when I was in NYC, even though traffic there can be scary, but not untypical for big cities everywhere in the world tbh)

 

I mean, it's a law for a reason. What's the point of even having crosswalks if anyone can just cross the road anywhere at anytime for any reason with no consequences for refusing to use the crosswalk?

 

But obviously, we can't allow drivers to run over someone just because they aren't walking where the magic lines say they're supposed to be, so we hold motorists accountable, too.

 

I understand that when the road is empty, it's dumb to enforce those rules. I believe 99.99% of Americans would agree with me that you can cross the street when no cars are present and that if a cop ticketed someone for that, it'd be dumb. But where cars are present, I think using crosswalks is ideal. It is also dangerous to the passengers of the car, and to anyone else in the area, because drivers might swerve to avoid the jaywalker and hit something or someone else. So the law should be enforced where traffic is present. There's no need to put people at risk of getting hit just so someone can save a minute of time by crossing the road earlier.

[tkitch]

14 minutes ago, YoungBlade said:

I understand that when the road is empty, it's dumb to enforce those rules. I believe 99.99% of Americans would agree with me that you can cross the street when no cars are present and that if a cop ticketed someone for that, it'd be dumb. But where cars are present, I think using crosswalks is ideal. It is also dangerous to the passengers of the car, and to anyone else in the area, because drivers might swerve to avoid the jaywalker and hit something or someone else. So the law should be enforced where traffic is present. There's no need to put people at risk of getting hit just so someone can save a minute of time by crossing the road earlier.

Most humans won't cross in the middle of the street when traffic is actively driving by at 30 mph.  Self preservation is a thing, and not really uncommon.

 

The issue is, laws like Jaywalking are selectively enforced.  Frequently against minority communities.  (Which also has to do with the creation of the law.)

 

Cops have a lot of leeway for who they charge with minor offenses.  

Guess how many of my white friends have ever been hassled by a cop for anything related to "weed?"  Just sayin'

[Mark Kaine]

46 minutes ago, YoungBlade said:

So the law should be enforced where traffic is present.

Yeah, true,  it also depends on traffic density etc, like in big cities it really makes sense IF there are tons of people and cars present ... however in a smaller city where I live it kinda doesn't,  if I use a crosswalk here I have to *look* then if a car comes, *wait* for it to maybe, just maybe , stop, *then walk* and hope the driver didn't change his mind "last minute" lol... nope I rather walk a few meters where there is no crosswalk and go across the street normally (while looking for traffic obviously) but this is really regionally different,  in a big city I'd definitely use a crosswalk if available, because cars actually approach them slowly with clear intention to stop (unlike in the small towns around here) and that's because its actually enforced there by the police... small towns ,apparently, don't have anything like a "traffic police " here, so that's why its regionally different  - i think.

 

29 minutes ago, tkitch said:

The issue is, laws like Jaywalking are selectively enforced. 

TBH tho, I think Germany has a similar law, and probably many other countries... the weird part is how this jaywalking law was made and how its enforced (if that video has some truth to it) 

As I recall you're definitely supposed to use crosswalks here, if present, but as almost everything here its defined very strictly,  so if you just walk a few meters you don't have to use the probably highly dangerous crosswalk anymore and can cross the street safely on your own accord. : p

 

 

 

 

 

[tkitch]

24 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

TBH tho, I think Germany has a similar law, and probably many other countries... the weird part is how this law was made and how its enforced (if that video has some truth to it) 

As I recall you're definitely supposed to use crosswalks if present, but as almost everything here its defined very strictly,  so if you just walk a few meters you don't have to use the probably highly dangerous crosswalk anymore and can cross the street safely on your own accord. : p

If you mean an "Adam Ruins Everything" video, it's mostly accurate.  (Played up for TV, but not inaccurate.) 

 

But in MA (where I live) a pedestrian in the crosswalk /ALWAYS/ has the right of way, even if you have a green light.  

[wanderingfool2]

On 10/1/2021 at 2:53 AM, oali24 said:

They are horrifically inefficient, think about it, a bus is as long as about 3 sedans/2.25 SUVs but those might be able to seat a maximum of about 15 people people respectively, a bus can take at least 25 people and usually way more than that, you see the issue here?

Actually a note about the "buses can carry more people" mentality.  Yes they can but it's important to note that you have them running at less than 25% capacity most of the time (only during rush hour is it full).  So now you are burning gas/diesel to carry less people on average the same distance....because the other thing that you need to consider is that buses need to stop to let people on and off which adds to a total commute that is longer (literally I've been on a bus that took so long that I got off and began jogging a few blocks before my stop because it was quicker and because I was late).  A 2 hour commute by transit only took me 1 hour by car.

 

Not taking away the merits of public transit, but it isn't as eco as many believe it is (unless if it's electrified)...but then again that costs billions of dollars when you are talking about infrastructure like Canada or US, which has a lot of land between many areas.

[Mark Kaine]

25 minutes ago, tkitch said:

If you mean an "Adam Ruins Everything" video, it's mostly accurate.  (Played up for TV, but not inaccurate.) 

 

But in MA (where I live) a pedestrian in the crosswalk /ALWAYS/ has the right of way, even if you have a green light.  

Linked the video above,  it also goes into how American cities are supposedly specifically made in favor of "individual" car traffic  - something i didn't really notice while i was in NY,  but I think the city is pretty "European" anyway,  i didn't have the feeling I'm in "America" much at all (could have just been Paris tbh :D)

although of course there were a few strange things, like ice machines everywhere,  "ancient" water towers, etc and for the life of me I wasn't able to find a "supermarket" I think I saw one while flying over Brooklyn ... so I thought "supermarkets are probably outside of Manhattan..." but I swear I didn't see one at all haha (there were lots of other stores tho , even "1 $ stores"...)

 

ps: i had rollerblades (bought in tribeca) and I was traveling pretty much through all of Manhattan this way, so I've seen the "traffic" and stuff (but no supermarkets whatsoever lol)

 

Pss: taxi drivers, ruthless!! 

 

 

[thrasher_565]

11 hours ago, atxcyclist said:

Busses have routes, they don't necessarily go where you need to get to. That's the main problem with busses and commuter rail outside of dense urban areas, too many people needing to get too many places for there to be routes and stops that work for everyone. I have to take 15-20 minutes to cycle to the bus stop, hope there's space on the front of the bus for my bicycle (which there normally isn't on the first so 30 minute wait for the next one), bus 45 minutes through a lot of stops, then unload my bicycle and ride another 20 minutes to get to work. Or, I can get in my car or get on my motorcycle and be there in roughly 30 minutes.

i commute too on a bus 40minets a day one way. but i cant afford a car at $17 an hour and if i did have my driver license ied be doing a different job.  if you cant aford a car and dont want to do 2 hour bus ride then options is to move or find a different job.

 

there no city the build in good transit lines as city has been built up over decades mostly around ports. and when there no freezers back then with in walking distance form the butcher. meat was killed, cut up and eaten in the same day.

 

people then go farther away from the city as its cheaper to live and commute is the problem.

[tkitch]

14 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Linked the video above,  it also goes into how American cities are supposedly specifically made in favor of "individual" car traffic  - something i didn't really notice while i was in NY,  but I think the city is pretty "European" anyway,  i didn't have the feeling I'm in "America" much at all (could have just been Paris tbh :D)

although of course there were a few strange things, like ice machines everywhere,  "ancient" water towers, etc and for the life of me I wasn't able to find a "supermarket" I think I saw one while flying over Brooklyn ... so I thought "supermarkets are probably outside of Manhattan..." but I swear I didn't see one at all haha (there were lots of other stores tho , even "1 $ stores"...)

So, in NYC you won't find a lot of big stores, the rent is just too high.  Especially in like Manhattan.

 

Bodegas are the go to thing there.

 

This is sensationalized, but, y'know, not factually inaccurate:

 

 

[thrasher_565]

7 hours ago, Donut417 said:

So the road communicates with the car? Yeah, not here in Michigan. Most roads here are 20+ years old and are falling apart from neglect. Yes, I know the cars have sensors and radars. But Im talking about sensors on the road specifically. Also Im talking about a network that cars communicate with other cars and the road on. They DONT currently do that. 

no the cars communicates to each other and satellites in the sky...

[Mark Kaine]

48 minutes ago, tkitch said:

, in NYC you won't find a lot of big stores, the rent is just too high.  Especially in like Manhattan.

Yeah, I figured that, I think i also asked ppl , they were just shrugging me off haha...

Yes, I purely lived on cheese and bacon hamburgers and latte machiatto for the whole week   (I also did, for whatever reason, not visit a "fast food restaurant" even once , just regular coffee shops, etc)  

Thanks for the video, a different take on this is appreciated, I know Simon Whistler,  can be quite inaccurate, especially on details...

Edit @tkitch  actually,  thats exactly the same take... whistler"s (today I found out)  is just more thorough in fact... 

 

46 minutes ago, thrasher_565 said:

no the cars communicates to each other and satellites in the sky...

Yeap, they use these proximity laser thingies and gps,  thats why it works so well... (i don't know or care what "tesla" uses, but im sure whatever it is, its not working,  this company shouldn't be allowed to make cars for public traffic at all, musk should stick to "belly flopping" rockets for kicks imo...)

 

 

[thrasher_565]

2 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Yeah, I figured that, I think i also asked ppl , they were just shrugging me off haha...

Yes, I purely lived on cheese and bacon hamburgers and latte machiatto for the whole week   (I also did, for whatever reason, not visit a "fast food restaurant" even once , just regular coffee shops, etc)  

Thanks for the video, a different take on this is appreciated, I know Simon Whistler,  can be quite inaccurate, especially on details...

 

Yeap, they use these laser thingies,  thats why it works so well... (i don't know or care what "tesla" uses, but im sure whatever it is, its not working,  this company shouldn't be allowed to make cars for public traffic at all, musk should stick to "belly flopping" rockets for kicks imo...)

 

 

 i think musk knows something we dont. it seem like hes trying to stall the self driving car and the automatic assembly line.  but i dont really follow him so im guessing. i no he was gungho at making a fast automatic assembly line and self driving car but then his forces whet to rockets. hes fine with assembly line ai but fears other more intelligent ai...

[atxcyclist]

9 hours ago, thrasher_565 said:

i commute too on a bus 40minets a day one way. but i cant afford a car at $17 an hour and if i did have my driver license ied be doing a different job.  if you cant aford a car and dont want to do 2 hour bus ride then options is to move or find a different job.

 

there no city the build in good transit lines as city has been built up over decades mostly around ports. and when there no freezers back then with in walking distance form the butcher. meat was killed, cut up and eaten in the same day.

 

people then go farther away from the city as its cheaper to live and commute is the problem.

My option was to have a personal vehicle, which I do. I did the bus thing long enough, and especially right now during a pandemic I wouldn't step foot on a bus.

 

People live further away from city centers because they want room to stretch their arms out more than a balcony. It is also cheaper, but I will never live in a cramped apartment for many reasons: No garage to tinker on stuff or park my motorcycles, no space that I own, and no actual privacy because you share interior walls with other people.

 

I have no issue commuting 30 minutes each way in or on my personal vehicle, in order to live in a cheaper, bigger place where I can keep more than a dining room table, a desk, and a bed. Even a terrible apartment where I live is over $900 a month, and that's a crackhead-laden and bug infested hellhole. 100% miss me with that, no thanks.

[thrasher_565]

1 hour ago, atxcyclist said:

My option was to have a personal vehicle, which I do. I did the bus thing long enough, and especially right now during a pandemic I wouldn't step foot on a bus.

 

People live further away from city centers because they want room to stretch their arms out more than a balcony. It is also cheaper, but I will never live in a cramped apartment for many reasons: No garage to tinker on stuff or park my motorcycles, no space that I own, and no actual privacy because you share interior walls with other people.

 

I have no issue commuting 30 minutes each way in or on my personal vehicle, in order to live in a cheaper, bigger place where I can keep more than a dining room table, a desk, and a bed. Even a terrible apartment where I live is over $900 a month, and that's a crackhead-laden and bug infested hellhole. 100% miss me with that, no thanks.

 

12 hours ago, Mark Kaine said:

I mean that's exactly how it is here ... it's very possible the video i saw about it was just full of shit ... although even the comments seemed to suggest its actually a thing... might be also regional differences,  i dunno (still the jaywalking law seems to be a very strange,  America specific law... but as said maybe most of what I heard was bs... i certainly didn't have the impression that's a thing when I was in NYC, even though traffic there can be scary, but not untypical for big cities everywhere in the world tbh)

 

Edit: video in question 

 

 

 

The comments are worth reading too... for example:

"nobody jaywalks in london, because there's no such thing as jaywalking in london. jaywalking is an american concept. in england you merely cross the street."

 

So the fact there is even the concept of "jaywalking" is just really sus for a none American citizen... 

 

And the same goes for Simon "smash that thumbs down button " Whistler,  on the other hand he doesn't strike me as someone who is *purposefully* lying .

 

well when i j walk i make shur i dont stop the cars so i run across vs going to the crosswalk and stopping traffic so in that case its better to j walk then stop traffic?

 

i also would not j walk a highway. and keep j walking to 4 leans or less at speeds 50 and under.

Edited October 6, 2021 by thrasher_565

[The Torrent]

You don't drive, do you?

[tkitch]

8 minutes ago, milkerfish said:

I assume you get stuck in traffic, what if the people that could take transit did take transit and left the roads less congested for people that have to drive. 

You assume wrong.  I generally spend about 45-50 minutes to drive 40 miles.

 

I rarely hit traffic, outside of construction or accidents.  Again:  Reverse Commute.  

[Zodiark1593]

1 hour ago, milkerfish said:

 

 

Then invest in rail.

 

 

Car dependent city design was only the "default" since the 60s, since then countless cities have been bulldozed and demoloshed to make way for freeways and parking lots.

 

 

 

Rather sadly, most of us weren’t around during the 60’s. 
 

I personally like rail, though to reach through to rural areas nowadays will inevitably involve crossing through privately owned land. Eminent Domain laws do exist, though will cost the government a lot i  time and money in court battles (because land owners won’t give it up without a fight) and fair market value. So mass rail transit is hardly feasible anymore simply due to laws on the books. 

[Mark Kaine]

Again guys, what's the thought process behind *computer driven cars that are much safer for everyone* to *i personally cannot use public transport for "reasons"*?

 

[tkitch]

26 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

Again guys, what's the thought process behind *computer driven cars that are much safer for everyone* to *i personally cannot use public transport for "reasons"*?

 

Uhhh, most techies are going to agree that properly developed AI Driven cars will absolutely be better than the vast majority of humans.

 

I can't use public transit generally, because my trips are not heavily trafficed.

[Mark Kaine]

1 hour ago, tkitch said:

can't use public transit generally, because my trips are not heavily trafficed.

Why aren't you using  a self driving car then (if available)?

 

 

Public transportation has nothing to do with this!

[tkitch]

Just now, Mark Kaine said:

Why aren't you using  a self driving car then (if available)?

 

 

Public transportation has nothing to do with this!

because they're still not generally available? 

[Mark Kaine]

1 minute ago, tkitch said:

because they're still not generally available? 

I know that, I'm asking why you all are talking about public transport,  instead of how self driving cars would be good or bad?

 

Like, if everyone wants to talk about the public transportation situation in America (which seems hopeless at this point) fine, but the subject of the thread is "self driving personal* vehicles" *which what a car usually is 

[tkitch]

4 minutes ago, Mark Kaine said:

I know that, I'm asking why you all are talking about public transport,  instead of how self driving cars would be good or bad?

 

Like, if everyone wants to talk about the public transportation situation in America (which seems hopeless at this point) fine, but the subject of the thread is "self driving personal* vehicles" *which what a car usually is 

because the OP was talking about mass transit and public transit in the post as well?

 

So, it's still on topic?

[Mark Kaine]

3 minutes ago, tkitch said:

because the OP was talking about mass transit and public transit in the post as well?

Yes, yes, he did, im just pointing out this has very little relevancy to how public transport works, and does indeed give the impression OP and others think ,self driving cars = public transport,  otherwise why even bring it up?

 

Seriously I'm not complaining per say, I'd just rather have discussed self driving car technology,  which is amazing (i even linked a video about development,  safety,  etc)