Why doesn't Ukraine want to be part of Russia?

[Assassin]

Apparently you can get warnings for posting this.

This is off topic.

[stereomathematics]

the real question is, why would the ukraine want to join the eu? if it did, its manufacturing, which is primarily in the east, would no longer be able to produce goods for sale because of eu standards. it wouldnt even be able to sell those goods to its ichiban trading partner russia under eu law. why is it that no one was paying attention when people were protesting against loosing thier jobs by joining the eu, but after mccain goes there the people that want to join the eu all of a sudden are more important? not everyone want to move to western europe to become a maid, supermarket cashier or some other low paid hourly worker, the only jobs in western europe for eastern europeans. why would people (not brussels) in the eu, want to pay for more bailouts when they are already broke themselves after 6 years of austerity? if crimea votes to go join with russia, its people are no longer responsible for ukrainian debt. if other eastern cities decied to do the same thing, the european commission will not be able to get back any of the money it has loaned to the ukraine. that is why members of the international monetary fund arrived hours after the coup government set up in kyiv. that is why they have already started to sell of natural reasources to western countries, signing a deal with chevron to exploit shale gas in the nation. 

also, russia did not invade crimea. there was already a russian military presence there and the 1997 partition treaty on the status and condition of the black sea fleet allows for a number of russian troops to move into and out of region. 

you are on the internet, use it to check some of the propaganda you watch on tv for accuracy. 

 

http://youtu.be/wZhodD2p7ZE

[Rekx]

Someone loves his murica and hate socialism...... God dude, maybe you should see other news channels than CNN. Getting real tired of this American way of thinking about socialism. So stop it! If you ask me this topic should be locked.

[meritmaster]

I could explain my point but Im not wanting to start an argument that Im fairly sure will resort to people tossing insults back and forth until threads locked but I will try and explain my points rationally without resorting to that.

 

 

 

 

Ok lets see, you highlight the example of the EU and greece, lets explain a little about its nothing related to socialism its to do with the great big experimental (muckup) of the euro (there’s political reasons why it was pushed so hard relating to the relationship between france and germany and the desire to build a common interest to prevent conflict occurring between them ever again but thats an aside) the Euro is a economic union without a political union which for a start is a cart before the horse scenario, having a multitude of different economies operating with a currency with a single value. Greece's problem stems from the countries debt, in a pre euro situation greece would have just devalued its own currency to help deal with the issue (it would have been a tough recession but probably not as anywhere near as bad as its been) but as greece is a member of the euro they couldn't do that as devaluing the currency requires everyone to devalue the currency, which countries with strong economies are unlikely to do, the problem also stems that when the euro was introduced the rules that were set as for member ship were broken for certain states, regarding things such as national debt levels. This combined with the a very strict conditions attached to bailouts has lead to the current situation that is limited to a number of euro zone countries, while other economies within the euro zone are strong some showing growth of upto 8% during the down turn.

 

As for america, while what you define there is the american dream, I will dispute the fact that you are truely free to be your own governor as your always subject to circumstance, I'll also highly the fact the most recent economic downturn was prompted by the zealous sale of sub prime mortgages, which fell over in america. 

The EU create a central bank, so what more could a marxist/communist want. Greece's problems stems from amensity, which happen to result from the debt. They expect to Government to take of them [ buy them food, tuck them in, give them healthcare, take, and give their money to the so called collective, all so it can be sorted out by Government, and dispersed equally. The Government can't take care of you; only you as an individual can take care, and look after yourself. You can't expect someone to pay for your needs, because you only know what you need. Greece couldn't give away anything else in their system, and this is because they had no more money for their insane idea. People were mad that they had no job, no more money, and lost damn near everything; all because of a promise to be taken care of by big brother, but big brother failed, as he does when gets to big.

 

A central bank is required for a communist country, and says so in the manifesto, so the EU made that possible. You're now locked into a proven failed system. that was created by Marxist, who ultimately set up the worlds first atheist super power; which killed more than hitler, but yet you still defend them.

Socialism is plagued by failure    

 

 

What Euro-zone country is succeeding, and growing?

 

O yea, and if you knew anything about the world, and my countries history; then you would know what the progressives are in our country? Perhaps know who Woodrow Wilson is? Americans are in a political war that is being force on by the socialist in our country,, and that have been in our country. These men include: Obama, FDR, JFK, Teddy Roosevelt, Truman, Nixon, Ford, Jimmy Carter, and Lyndon Johnson. So you must know about the two ideologues going at it in the states? Capitalism vs Socialism. Our recent failure are because of socialist policy. Does it just so happen that once we put socialist policies, and thoughts into our country, that we just so happen to get large debt. Lets look at the last Capitalistic president Ronald Reagan, and look what he did: US had a surplus, business was thriving, prosperity was there, and individual rights came back into site. America was booming then, and we collapse the Soviet Union, and ended years of terror. Before that was Calvin Coolidge, which had our economy moving uphill on a sloped position. We are fighting these stupid policies that are coming from the land we ran away from. America was exceptional, and now we are fighting to be exceptional. We don't want to be like you. Look at we have done in  300 years.  

[meritmaster]

Someone loves his murica and hate socialism...... God dude, maybe you should see other news channels than CNN. Getting real tired of this American way of thinking about socialism. Do stop it! Of you ask me thid topic should be locked.

You know CNN is a socialist channel right? A joke for CNN is that it's called {communist nation network]; so what the fuck are you talking about kid?  Trying to insult someone, and then suggesting the topic should locked; will leave your opinion rendered useless. You should be ashamed of your ignorance. Learn about something before talking about it. BTW i read books, and history, something i doubt you do. Go back to /b/

[Guest]

For posting TLDR?

Yep, somebody takes the time to write a good piece of information and somebody comes in and goes: TLDR

That's not cool.

If something is too long to read then most people actually don't read it. Weird huh?

Anyway, just my opinion.

[ToxicFire]

What Euro-zone country is succeeding, and growing?

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/graph.do?tab=graph&plugin=1&pcode=tec00115&language=en&toolbox=data

 

or in non shiney table form

 

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tec00115

[MatheusSanzo]

This is off topic.

For experience i can tell you that it doesn't matter.

[Rekx]

You know CNN is a socialist channel right? A joke for CNN is that it's called {communist nation network]; so what the fuck are you talking about kid? Trying to insult someone, and then suggesting the topic should locked; will leave your opinion rendered useless. You should be ashamed of you ignorance. Learn about something before talking about it. BTW i read books, and history, something i doubt you do. Go back to /b/

I see you didn't get the point about CNN......

Have a good day, this topic is reported and I won't respond to any comments from you. So don't even bother quoting this. Clearly you know it all, and there by i don't see any reason to "discuss" this further.

[Hidden Orange]

Wouldn't it be more of a pain in the ass for Russia to have Ukraine be part of it? It'd be like babysitting a nation that recently experienced some terrible stuff. Ugh... Why can't we all get along?! Why can't EU and Russia work together to make Ukraine a better nation? Let's have a Russian-based government, perhaps a primary military support and an EU-based economy or something.

[ToxicFire]

Wouldn't it be more of a pain in the ass for Russia to have Ukraine be part of it? It'd be like babysitting a nation that recently experienced some terrible stuff. Ugh... Why can't we all get along?! Why can't EU and Russia work together to make Ukraine a better nation? Let's have a Russian-based government, perhaps a primary military support and an EU-based economy or something.

Except what we're talking about here is the fundamental right to self determinism, Russia shouldn't be able to say who ukraine gets to play with, neither should the EU or the US, because frankly doing so is treating a nation like a child that doesn't know what's best for it. I think theres pritty strong evidence that ukranian's want to have the ability to determine their own fate by both pro and anti protests over the past few months.

[Hidden Orange]

Except what we're talking about here is the fundamental right to self determinism, Russia shouldn't be able to say who ukraine gets to play with, neither should the EU or the US, because frankly doing so is treating a nation like a child that doesn't know what's best for it. I think theres pritty strong evidence that ukranian's want to have the ability to determine their own fate by both pro and anti protests over the past few months.

Pretty much every third-world nation wants to find their own future, but with stupid stuff going around, it's not going to happen. I'm just asking that first-world nations or succeeding nations act as guides or role models for other nations rather than directly shaping their futures. Dictators, religious fanatics, political fanatics and corruption, greed, and past events such as the two World Wars and imperialism are all making it difficult for any nation to succeed or even look remotely sensible to other nations.

[wpirobotbuilder]

Watch this first.

 

 

I see this thread blowing up.

[ToxicFire]

Pretty much every third-world nation wants to find their own future, but with stupid stuff going around, it's not going to happen. I'm just asking that first-world nations or succeeding nations act as guides or role models for other nations rather than directly shaping their futures. Dictators, religious fanatics, political fanatics and corruption, greed, and past events such as the two World Wars and imperialism are all making it difficult for any nation to succeed or even look remotely sensible to other nations.

Trail blazers are not always good role models. Pritty much every system is broken in some respect, even whats taken as democracy is flawed.

 

Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. - Winston Churchill. (1947)

[meritmaster]

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/graph.do?tab=graph&plugin=1&pcode=tec00115&language=en&toolbox=data

 

or in non shiney table form

 

http://epp.eurostat.ec.europa.eu/tgm/table.do?tab=table&plugin=1&language=en&pcode=tec00115

.EU...... right buddy

[Hidden Orange]

Trail blazers are not always good role models. Pritty much every system is broken in some respect, even whats taken as democracy is flawed.

 

Many forms of Government have been tried and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time. - Winston Churchill. (1947)

Still, there are "stable" nations out there that other nations could look towards to. Also, I'm about as informed about politics, world news, and such as a frog in a well so...

[meritmaster]

I see you didn't get the point about CNN......

Have a good day, this topic is reported and I won't respond to any comments from you. So don't even bother quoting this. Clearly you know it all, and there by i don't see any reason to "discuss" this further.

Ignorance and arrogance in a nut shell^

[ToxicFire]

.EU...... right buddy

 

Would you like to provide contary evidence?

 

Heres a little bit more evidence on european growth.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/27/key-sentiment-index-underlines-growth-in-europe-largest-economy/

 

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2014/02/14/european-stocks-climb-ahead-gdp-data/

[meritmaster]

Wouldn't it be more of a pain in the ass for Russia to have Ukraine be part of it? It'd be like babysitting a nation that recently experienced some terrible stuff. Ugh... Why can't we all get along?! Why can't EU and Russia work together to make Ukraine a better nation? Let's have a Russian-based government, perhaps a primary military support and an EU-based economy or something.

Why not like Ukrainians decide.  A month ago it was about snipers on the roof; killing their own citizens, and now we are talking about if we should allow the people to remain Ukrainians? Russia has absolutely no power to just invade a country, and take it. Ukraine is a independent, and sovereign country, and never was never Russia. Ukrainians as individuals have to make Ukraine a better nation, and not the EU, or Russia.

[Hidden Orange]

Why not like Ukrainians decide.  A month ago it was about snipers on the roof; killing their own citizens, and now we are talking about if we should allow the people to remain Ukrainians? Russia has absolutely no power to just invade a country, and take it. Ukraine is a independent, and sovereign country, and never was never Russia. Ukrainians as individuals have to make Ukraine a better nation, and not the EU, or Russia.

I mentioned a while ago that I was asking nations to be role models and guides to indirectly help other nations rather than directly shape other nations.

[meritmaster]

Would you like to provide contary evidence?

All EU countries GDP is on a declined path for the past 6 years or so, and it has not been a very long time since the Euro was introduced. Just look at all the GDPs of the EU zone countries, and their debt. None of them are in good shape, and even on your crappy little table you linked. If you notice nothing is consistent, and it never will be. You might learn something from my friend Nigel 

 

 

 

 

[meritmaster]

Please watch this 

 

 

 

"It is power without limits"

[meritmaster]

Would you like to provide contary evidence?

 

Heres a little bit more evidence on european growth.

 

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2013/08/27/key-sentiment-index-underlines-growth-in-europe-largest-economy/

 

http://www.foxbusiness.com/markets/2014/02/14/european-stocks-climb-ahead-gdp-data/

Inconsistent and inconstancy  

[ToxicFire]

euro zone was on upward trend until 2008, the old addage of america sneezes europe catches a cold still holds true, there hasn't been consistent growth in alot of eurozone countries in recent years because people are nervous about the debt held by certain countries and how that would be dealt with ie if countries like greece would default on their debt, which would have started a domino reaction, and set a bad precedent, uncertainty is always detrimental to the market, this was reflected not only in european markets but elsewhere.

 

And mr farage, probably an ok bloke in person but as a politician he's taken somewhat with a large pinch of salt, he's the leader of a right of center  (pritty much the most right party in the uk). His party is pritty much considered the 4th political party which has made gains in recent years partly from protest votes and disgruntled voters that would have traditionally voted for the traditional right of center party the conservatives. They've also made gains because the liberals vote collapsed due to their inability to follow through on what attracted alot of temporary and young voters at the last general election which have vanished since due to their expectations not been instantly met. His party's views by far do not reflect the majority and his party does not actually have an MP in the houses of parliment

[wpirobotbuilder]

There is a live Reddit thread with updates fairly often.

 

http://www.reddit.com/live/3rgnbke2rai6hen7ciytwcxadi