Confessed Cheater Sues Valve Over Being Banned

[Legion]

I actually feel he is in the right on this one, but I'm taking valves side because cheaters ruin it for everyone else.

Plus surely if he loses that 50$ turns into Valves legal fees as well?

Pretty sure Valve can argue its a subscription base model and our new CoC requires a user to have 0 strikes to play. Its a big corporation if you can throw enough money into something you can generally win.

[Blue fellow]

I'm assuming that if you get banned from steam on an account is not just for an specific game, your entire account along with all your games goes to the toilet. But like I said I'm just assuming since people who cheat can often be easily identified by having a brand new account with only 1 game often created right after said game went on sale precisely to avoid losing all other games where they do not plan to cheat.

 

No. From what I know, he received an "Overwatch" ban in Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. It's only applied to CS:GO, not even other games that share the engine like VAC bans are. Overwatch bans started out as one year, but they recently changed them to permanent. They're more meant to serve as a temporary ban until VAC kicks in. And VAC bans are only applied to the game engine. A CS:S VAC ban doesn't even limit you from playing CS:GO on VAC servers (edit: because of different versions of Source)

 

So pretty much in reality, if this ban wasn't changed and stuck to one year, he most likely would've been VAC banned before it expired anyhow, rendering the Overwatch ban irrelevant. 

 

Edit: And you can still play VAC banned games offline, or on non-VAC servers.

[dizmo]

That's what they're attempting, yet they still allow things that would clearly make em goods and not services like playing offline, modifying the game, offering a "lending" service, etc. They're not "well within their rights" to cancel the service retroactively though, if there was an offense and it was already punished you can't revisit it particularly due to the high likelyhood of someone who was allowed to continue to use their service to purchase more games then saying "oh thanks for the money, but you broke a rule long ago and we'll repunish you and take away all the games you already purchased without refunding you a goddamn thing"

They have product sales and pricing, they sell specific  third party licenses to you as several games you purchase on steam require you to agree to another EULA and enter a product key. Basically they switch between selling products and offering a service whenever it's convenient to them.

Yeah I agree that the retroactive thing is wrong.

Subscription I think is the term they use. Interesting model, really.

 

I'm assuming that if you get banned from steam on an account is not just for an specific game, your entire account along with all your games goes to the toilet. But like I said I'm just assuming since people who cheat can often be easily identified by having a brand new account with only 1 game often created right after said game went on sale precisely to avoid losing all other games where they do not plan to cheat.

I was under the impression this is how it works as well. A greater slap on the wrist for a greater deterrent.

It does say they can terminate subscriptions though, so they can take away single games.

 

 

It'll be interesting to see what way the court goes. We can debate it amongst ourselves for however long but ultimately it's what the judge decides.

I can't believe how cheap it is to sue someone down there. Holy! $50? It isn't a huge amount here, I think closer to $250. $50 seems too cheap, especially if you have to pay triple damages for a no show.

That's rather off topic though.

 

I think Valve is going to quote the "no cheating" part of the agreement, and state that it violates ToS. He's stated he's a cheater, so Valve could just say they reviewed what he'd been doing in depth and determined that it warranted a termination of service instead of a slap on the wrist. It states in the ToS that they're no required to give notice of such actions, and I imagine it could take quite a while to review one particular abuser.

We don't know though, that's just speculation, and only really works if some kind of automated system issues temp bans and it takes an actual person to look into it further.

Maybe someone else knows how that works within Valve? I don't cheat or really play any games on Steam so it's never something I've bothered looking into.

[Imaginaerum]

There are single player games that use VAC. Personally I don't cheat in multiplayer games either, and I rare cheat in single player games. This discussions is not about cheating though, it's about retroactively punishing someone after having changed the punishment. That is simply not OK, no matter how you look at it. He had already received his punishment. Just imagine if the maximum jail time for let's say drunk driving was raised. Should everyone who has ever been in jail for drunk driving go back in jail, even though they might have been released several years ago? That's insane, right? That is basically what Valve is doing here, but instead of jail they are taking away games people have paid for.

That's what bugs me about account banning, banning the account from being able to play online is one thing but cutting access to their games completely is bad

[Blue fellow]

There are single player games that use VAC.

 

Which ones? I've never heard of being unable to play singleplayer because of a VAC ban. 

[Analog]

In a matter of fact I think that he will win the law suit, just because he was wrongfully banned the second time. There have been people suing McDonalds, because the coffee is too hot and won, so I don't see why this fella will lose, no chance of loosing in my opinion. Valve are fu**ed. 

[IdeaStormer]

Its a game man, one cheater out but what about the N others and what about Valve's previous BS with games.

 

Now courts, I hope the judge literally kicks them all out of court and puts them all in jail for a day for wasting his time.

 

Freaking game...

[LAwLz]

Which ones? I've never heard of being unable to play singleplayer because of a VAC ban. 

Well one example would be Test Drive Unlimited 2. Before you say that's a multiplayer game, I am willing to bet that at least 75% of everyone that plays that game plays it single player (especially now that the servers are down every other day). That game is VAC enabled.

I have never been banned so I am not really sure how it works. Does it just remove the ability to play the game online? Does it ban your entire account or just remove that particular game?

 

Anyway that is not the issue I am having with this. The issue is that they are retroactively trying to punish someone using new rules. if you want a different example of this then just take my drunk driving example. It sounds really idiotic, right? That's exactly how idiotic this is.

[Giddyguy]

I don't support cheating nor think that the cheater in this situation deserves to win the case.

 

However I believe this counts as an ex post facto change or ruling, which I do not believe in. And so to prevent such an occurrence in the future (where Valve, or any other company, changes a part of the contract making something now illegal and implicating those who had committed the act before it was illegal) I think the cheater should win this appeal. I find this similar to Google's issue with the Anti-Islam video on youtube.

[Blue fellow]

Well one example would be Test Drive Unlimited 2. Before you say that's a multiplayer game, I am willing to bet that at least 75% of everyone that plays that game plays it single player (especially now that the servers are down every other day). That game is VAC enabled.

I have never been banned so I am not really sure how it works. Does it just remove the ability to play the game online? Does it ban your entire account or just remove that particular game?

 

Anyway that is not the issue I am having with this. The issue is that they are retroactively trying to punish someone using new rules. if you want a different example of this then just take my drunk driving example. It sounds really idiotic, right? That's exactly how idiotic this is.

 

You can still play the game offline. The only time a person's VAC ban will be noticeable to them is when they try to join an online VAC server. For CS:GO/Dota 2/Team Fortress 2, you will lose the ability to trade your items, however they are still in your account.

 

 

Also the ban in this lawsuit is an Overwatch ban in Counter-Strike: Global Offensive. They started off as a 1 year ban that was supposed to be a short term solution to hackers. Overwatch bans are from the community by peer review. Within that 1 year Overwatch span, the account will be VAC banned, which will make the Overwatch ban irrelevant. In this specific case, where the person already admitted to cheating, the only way for him to be affected by this change, is if he goes a year without being VAC banned. 

(Overwatch bans are exclusive to Counter-Strike and do not even show up on your Steam profile as far as I know)

 

The guy in this case is trying to make the argument that because he cannot play one game online, that his whole account is useless. All of his other games are not affected by this.

[Dopey]

Stupid people really need to stop breeding even more stupid people via this knucklehead.

[dalekphalm]

Well one example would be Test Drive Unlimited 2. Before you say that's a multiplayer game, I am willing to bet that at least 75% of everyone that plays that game plays it single player (especially now that the servers are down every other day). That game is VAC enabled.

I have never been banned so I am not really sure how it works. Does it just remove the ability to play the game online? Does it ban your entire account or just remove that particular game?

 

Anyway that is not the issue I am having with this. The issue is that they are retroactively trying to punish someone using new rules. if you want a different example of this then just take my drunk driving example. It sounds really idiotic, right? That's exactly how idiotic this is.

 

 

And End User License Agreement it's precisely that: A license agreement. As such all pertinent laws to service agreements apply. You cannot just decide "a longer ban it's needed" after you already made the decision of applying a temporary ban, like I said it's an end-run around the fact that they can't legally apply new terms to old offenses. The fact that you are saying "law has nothing to do with it" on a discussion titled "confessed cheater sues valve over being banned" should be a pretty good indication that law will be at the very least discussed in this topic, nobody is forcing you to participate in said discussion of course but you cannot tell us that law has "nothing to do with it" when we're talking about a lawsuit here.

 

I strongly agree with both of you.

 

Yes cheating is bad and ruins the game for others. Yes, Valve should have a system in place to deal with cheaters.

 

NO, it's NOT OKAY to change a ToS and retroactively alter the conditions of an agreement or contract. In many countries this is in fact flat out illegal to do. I cannot believe people are being so fanboyishly blind about this just because 1. he's a cheater, and 2. it's valve. It's almost like half of you would eat dirt if valve said it was delicious! Please, calm yourselves, and don't let passion cloud your ability to clearly think about this situation.

 

If this guy is a cheater, then HE WILL GET CAUGHT AGAIN in the future, when the new ToS with perma-ban is in effect. But perma-banning him for an offence that he was caught for, and already punished for during the time-frame of a previous ToS in which perma-ban was not a punishment is morally wrong and against the law in most 1st world countries.

 

The fact that he is a cheater basically has NOTHING to do with this. This is all about Valve changing a ToS and enforcing it retroactively. Lets all try and think about this logically please. And most important about this, think about the possible future implications: Basically if valve gets away with this, then it will set precedence for a company being able to change a ToS and retroactively affect the user, regardless of the topic or section of ToS it applies to - THIS IS VERY BAD FOR CONSUMER PROTECTION. The ToS is ONLY as binding as legal measures allow.

Valve are generally great guys. I love their service, own tons of valve games, and have never (nor will ever) cheated in a game in my life. But this is wrong.

 

An example of where this could lead is lets say your mobile phone provider decided that profane language is the reason why kids grow up to be sociopaths, and changed their ToS so that saying the word "fuck" in a SMS Text Message is grounds for account suspension or termination. OK, assuming you knew this when you signed up, and that there were alternatives, then sure, fine. However, now let's say they changed their ToS so that if you have EVER SAID THIS WORD in a SMS text, then you can also have your account terminated. Can you see the power for abuse if there's legal precedence for retroactively changing ToS whenever they feel like?

[ManOfDisguise]

Lord Gaben will obliterate that kid! None shall even think of trying to sue our one and only savior! Also lol @ cheating communities - EA hahah

[Blue fellow]

I strongly agree with both of you.

 

Yes cheating is bad and ruins the game for others. Yes, Valve should have a system in place to deal with cheaters.

 

NO, it's NOT OKAY to change a ToS and retroactively alter the conditions of an agreement or contract. In many countries this is in fact flat out illegal to do. I cannot believe people are being so fanboyishly blind about this just because 1. he's a cheater, and 2. it's valve. It's almost like half of you would eat dirt if valve said it was delicious! Please, calm yourselves, and don't let passion cloud your ability to clearly think about this situation.

 

If this guy is a cheater, then HE WILL GET CAUGHT AGAIN in the future, when the new ToS with perma-ban is in effect. But perma-banning him for an offence that he was caught for, and already punished for during the time-frame of a previous ToS in which perma-ban was not a punishment is morally wrong and against the law in most 1st world countries.

 

The fact that he is a cheater basically has NOTHING to do with this. This is all about Valve changing a ToS and enforcing it retroactively. Lets all try and think about this logically please. And most important about this, think about the possible future implications: Basically if valve gets away with this, then it will set precedence for a company being able to change a ToS and retroactively affect the user, regardless of the topic or section of ToS it applies to - THIS IS VERY BAD FOR CONSUMER PROTECTION. The ToS is ONLY as binding as legal measures allow.

Valve are generally great guys. I love their service, own tons of valve games, and have never (nor will ever) cheated in a game in my life. But this is wrong.

 

An example of where this could lead is lets say your mobile phone provider decided that profane language is the reason why kids grow up to be sociopaths, and changed their ToS so that saying the word "fuck" in a SMS Text Message is grounds for account suspension or termination. OK, assuming you knew this when you signed up, and that there were alternatives, then sure, fine. However, now let's say they changed their ToS so that if you have EVER SAID THIS WORD in a SMS text, then you can also have your account terminated. Can you see the power for abuse if there's legal precedence for retroactively changing ToS whenever they feel like?

 

As far as I know, and no one has provided evidence to the contrary, the Terms of Service never specifically defined a timespan for cheater's bans. Only that Valve was allowed to ban you from online play.

 

"You acknowledge and agree that either Valve or any online multiplayer host may refuse to allow you to participate in certain online multiplayer games if you use Cheats in connection with Steam or the Software."

 

Therefor when the Overwatch ban period was extended to permanent from one year, it didn't violate any of the Terms of Services in the past 10 years.

 

 

This cheater needs to provide evidence, he needs to show is where the permanent Overwatch ban violated the old Terms of Service. He has shown zero evidence towards this, because he has zero evidence. The old Terms of Service does not matter in his case. If he had a legitimate case, why isn't he showing the old Terms of Service compared to the new one? He doesn't even reference it. 

 

We should be demanding evidence before we judge...

[dalekphalm]

We should be demanding evidence before we judge...

I definitely understand where you're coming from in your post. And in fact you may be right. I haven't extensively sifted through the former vs current ToS, so I'm taking that particular claim of his at face value.

 

But, the part I've bolded in your quote is the most important factor, forth both sides of the argument. Lots of people here just condemn him instantly because he's a cheater. The fact that he's a cheater is only tangentally relevant to it. We should see full evidence before claiming he's guilty or innocent (Although in USA and many other 1st world nations, the law presumes innocent until proven guilty). The legal argument won't even be about whether he's a cheater or not. It's about whether the ToS legally and constitutionally supports Valve's decision to perma-ban him. The bolded part there is the key. If his claims are true about the ToS change, then the potential for abuse if Valve wins is insane and not worth banning one little cheater (Who will get VAC banned eventually if he truly is a cheater, so what's the big deal guys? Just let him win and let himself get VAC banned 100% legally and fully within the ToS later so there's no chance for him to fight it).

[LOST TALE]

It all depends on the law, because law is neutral.

I got no time to read TOS and other stuff.

[LOST TALE]

I don't care about his interests, if I found someone cheating in my game I'd permaban him immediately there would be no temporary banning to contest.

 

Fuck cheaters and fuck him I hate them with a passion.

Well minecraft is better when everyone cheats (all crazy cheats are blocked by server functions)

[Eroda]

This is less about whether cheaters deserve punishment they get or whether companies can change the rules and apply them retroactively 

[chillxnate]

So this guy cheated and got banned... and now he's so upset he wants to sue Valve? :huh:  UWOTM8?

Also, what is the point to cheating? Some people, just wow, wow. 

 

Kind of. He was on a temp ban and became unbanned but was going to remain on overwatch for a year. With the terms of service change they retroactively gave his account a perma ban, and that's why he's upset.

 

I hate to say it, but I can kind of side with this guy. It's comprable to someone going to jail, doing their time, being released on probation, then someone changing the law and you going back to prison to serve a life sentence. Kinda shitty.

[silberdrachi]

I think the problem in this thread is that people are Valve fanboys, and/or look down on anyone that cheats as lesser people who should not have equal rights...

Let's look at it this way. Have you ever cheated in a game? I know I have. I did it a few days ago in the Legend of Zelda. I didn't feel like grinding 250 rupees for the red ring so I edited the amount I had instead. I would be so pissed if they first punished me by not letting me play any Steam game for a few days, but then before my punishment was over they changed the contract I had agreed to, and then removed my entire Steam library forever.

 

Just to comment on this one point, i think that cheating in single player and cheating in multiplayer are totally different. In single player games ill edit config files and mess with player data and game data a ton, because it makes the game more interesting or faster or whatever. The only person i am impacting is myself.

 

But cheating in MP is impacting other players and i think that if you do it you should lose all access to play on official valve servers or vac enabled servers.

 

NOTE: WHEN VAC BANNED YOU LOSE ACCESS TO OFFICIAL AND VAC ENABLED MULTIPLAYER SERVERS, NOT ALL YOUR GAMES AND ARE STILL ABLE TO PLAY MULTIPLAYER GAMES ON NON OFFICIAL SERVERS.

[Oradian]

I don't think he deserves a perma ban, even if he had accepted the new agreement. They should just watch him 24/7, and on his profile, it should have in BIG WORDS: "EX-CHEATER, WARNING: DO NOT TRUST!"

[Oradian]

AND HEY, he may have cheated after is unban from temp ban.

[Oradian]

I am actually on this guy's side with this.

If I understand this correct, he was temporary banned for cheating. Valve then changed their ToS (after he was banned) and then gave him the new punishment. That is just bullshit and Valve should not have any right to do so. He had already gotten punished for cheating. New rules should not be applied to old crimes when the person has already been punished.

 

I know a lot of people on this forum blindly loves what Valves does but seriously, try to look at this objectively and you will realize that Valve are assholes with this.

Even IF the old ToS allowed them to do this, they are still being douchebags for doing this.

 

I think the problem in this thread is that people are Valve fanboys, and/or look down on anyone that cheats as lesser people who should not have equal rights...

Let's look at it this way. Have you ever cheated in a game? I know I have. I did it a few days ago in the Legend of Zelda. I didn't feel like grinding 250 rupees for the red ring so I edited the amount I had instead. I would be so pissed if they first punished me by not letting me play any Steam game for a few days, but then before my punishment was over they changed the contract I had agreed to, and then removed my entire Steam library forever.

 

I am starting to like Valve less and less. First they start looking through peoples' DNS cache, and now they are punishing people for crimes they have already been punished for, by changing the contract to allow them to do harsher punishments? This is clearly an abuse of power. I highly recommend people to not be Valve fanboys over this. I really like Valve, but if they continue to do things like these (which they most certainly will unless people protest) then they won't be any better than EA in the near future.

If you are a true fan of something, then you shouldn't be scared to tell them when they are doing something wrong. That's how you show that you truly care for them.

 

 

Edit: Oh and I should probably add that if they can do this, then they can potentially ban YOUR account, if anyone in your family has cheated in a game. So if you got family sharing on and your brother cheated in a game 2 years ago, they could ban your account permanently. It boggles my mind that anyone with common sense can think this is OK.

I don't think Value should be able to do this but he did agree... and alot of your statements are false...:

 

First of all. Cheating in Single Player is COMPLETELY different than cheating in Multiplayer. You cannot get banned for cheating in Single Player..... maybe.... but I have never gotten ban for cheating in singleplayer on steam games nor heard anyone else getting banned...

 

Second, Value only went through people DNS cache to check if anyone has been cheating, nothing else... people just need to calm down about this...

 

Third, Ya you should look down at people who cheat online, like what, you gonna respect the cheater and say GOOD JOB and give him a cake, no way, I would look down and consider him less.... AND you cannot assume these people who look down on cheaters are value fanboys...

 

Forth, This is not an abuse of power, he did agree to the agreement. Its just value being a dick and enforcing it.

 

Fifth: Did you just make up the family banning thing? If not, please quote me part of the agreement about this.

 

Conclusion

Can you stop assuming that everyone on value side is a Value fanboy? Like holy shit man, but like most of this post is random crap and excuses and more about how you hate value, not about the lawsuit.

[McMitch]

It says in the ToS they can ban you for making/selling cheats and he said that he does.

 

Will him admitting to cheating/making cheats affect this?

 

Also, if the ToS say that Valve can reevalutate punishments, then he is screwed.

[McMitch]

if you want a different example of this then just take my drunk driving example. It sounds really idiotic, right? That's exactly how idiotic this is.

 

I see it more like this.

 

If you owned a game server and you temporarily banned someone for breaking the rules but upon further examination came to the conclusion his offence warranted an extension or reduction it would not be wrong.

 

But I can see where you are coming from, the reason I'm on Valve's side is because this guy clearly just found a way to make a cheap buck, and wants to exploit that. It seems like Valve made a dick move and he says "Two can play at that game".