Tesla has now produced 1 million Electric cars in total.

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

People should be looking for a cheaper car. Instead they take out a long-ass loan with high interest on a higher trim car. 

Also, keep in mind that that is the median and that a lot of people are buying cars cheaper than that. 

Sure. I’ve got a2008 gti with a bunch of body damage that’s worth barely a few grand.  I expect it to sell.  Your problem seems to be “electric cars aren’t ALSO cheaper than gas cars so they’re worthless”.   They start around midrange and go up.  This is different that the description of buyers made earlier.

[Bombastinator]

42 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

 

If only poor or frugal people bought economy cars, they wouldn't be nearly as popular. (Last year, the RAV4, a car running in price from $26,000-$35,000, sold 448,068 units. Most of these are probably lower trims as well. If the majority can afford cars that start where this car tops out in price, then this car wouldn't sell as well. (Which I'd prefer, as I don't like 'em, but that's beside the point.)

No Kia?  No Chevrolet?  So what is being argued about is the definition of “luxury car”.  That’s probably got a pretty specific definition. Looking at Wikipedia it doesn’t seem to be so simple.  They want to grade by size not cost.  The definition used here I’m having trouble finding.  It was something about six figure incomes and what amounted to “city slickerness” for want of a better term.  So what you seem to be saying is that if you don’t drive a low end Toyota (I will add Kia and Chevrolet) you must be some six figure income city slicker, correct?

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, comander said:

I think at some level we're arguing semantics then. 

 

Here and now there are certainly use cases for gas cars, especially in the budget range. My next vehicle will likely be a used, economy Honda or Toyota gas car. 

 

At the midrange and up, EVs are very competitive choices. 

 

In around 5 years we can expect battery prices to fall by half, which should knock off 4-6k from an EV's price. Beyond that higher energy density (by weight) are currently going into production by both Samsung and Tesla. That hits the "needed" 500 mile range. 

 

That doesn't even take into account improvements in electronics or general design. 

 

I expect a promotion within the next 5 years and it's probable that I'll reward myself with a "new" car (possibly a used Tesla). 

Electric cars are already subdividing by range.  Not everyone needs a long range model.  The miniE has a mere 110mi but 400mi electrics are available.  I agree costs on them need to come down.

[suicidalfranco]

i have too ask: there are no cars, new, in the US priced between 8k and 15k?

[ARikozuM]

16 hours ago, Kaloob said:

Not quite, I'm saying EVs aren't ready for mass adoption until the prices can be pushed below 35K.

Also, I'd steer clear of a new luxury car with a salary of <$100,000/year. And and economy car doesn't have to be a "low end Toyoya, Kia or Chevrolet". Even the aforementioned RAV 4 can get pretty nice even below that $35K top price.

It doesn't have to be for mass adoption. Anyone that can go electric or hybrid should be incentivized to do so as it takes burden off of our coal plants (running down and ramping up becomes more evenly distributed) and gas stations become less necessary (transport of liquids). Gas cars are lower than 35% efficient (and the most efficient engine is a Toyota from a decade ago, iirc) whereas some coal plants can hit upwards of 60% and more. 

[suicidalfranco]

41 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

You can get a Mirage or Versa in that range. 

I'd go used on that budget myself. 

weird. What about cars like the citroen C3, renault twingo, fiat panda, dacia sandero, kia picanto, toyota aygo, opel corso or even the renault clio?

  

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Kaloob said:

Not all people need long range, they just think they do. Similar to the US truck market. 

Some actually do.  Not as many as think so though.

[Bombastinator]

39 minutes ago, suicidalfranco said:

weird. What about cars like the citroen C3, renault twingo, fiat panda, dacia sandero, kia picanto, toyota aygo, opel corso or even the renault clio?

  

I know nothing about them.  None of them are sold in the US, which is why I assume they were picked.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, ARikozuM said:

It doesn't have to be for mass adoption. Anyone that can go electric or hybrid should be incentivized to do so as it takes burden off of our coal plants (running down and ramping up becomes more evenly distributed) and gas stations become less necessary (transport of liquids). Gas cars are lower than 35% efficient (and the most efficient engine is a Toyota from a decade ago, iirc) whereas some coal plants can hit upwards of 60% and more. 

They used to be.  Trump killed that one.  People are still buying Tesla’s though.

[Bombastinator]

3 hours ago, suicidalfranco said:

i have too ask: there are no cars, new, in the US priced between 8k and 15k?

The last car I know of in that range was the Yugo.  It was a Yugoslavian remake of a 1970s fiat.  It went for something like 13,000 iirc.  They haven’t been sold in a long time.  These days that’s more the price of a motorcycle.  Higher end one, but motorcycle money.

[suicidalfranco]

7 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I know nothing about them.  None of them are sold in the US, which is why I assume they were picked.

no. i picked them because they all are among the top sellers in europe. and all of them, tax included fit into that 8k to 15k bracket.

In the 30k bracket we have the likes of the corola, civic, golf (fully decked), renegade etc...

[Bombastinator]

4 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

I agree. I was just saying that they're not ready for mass adoption. That's all.

The definition of “mass adoption is a bit vague. One million is a lot of cars.

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, Kaloob said:

Here the Corolla, Civic, and Golf start at below 20 grand.

Most people just buy a used car if they can't afford that as you get more practicality and only a slight downside (MPG, but gas is cheap enough here that the difference between subcompact and compact is negligible, and ease of driving, though with the bigger roads here, it's also not that important).

In 2012 I paid 16k for a 2008 golf.  It’s worth a fourth of that now.

[Bombastinator]

5 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

One million for a whole decade isn't anywhere near mass adoption. Even Mazda can surpass that and they're incredible niche.

“Mazda” Is incredible niche.  No.  Konigsegg is incredible niche.  Mazda is somewhat uncommon.  Maybe like Subaru, or perhaps Volkswagen.

[Bombastinator]

6 minutes ago, Kaloob said:

VAG is one of the biggest global automakers. Subaru has sold over twice the amount of cars as Mazda for at least 2 years (not looking any further than that).

Also, for an economy car maker, Mazda is a niche.

Global or inside the US?  Now we get to play with the definition of “incredibly niche”.  Also this “economy car” thing you seem to have worked in.  Does it include the Ford F-150?

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, Kaloob said:

Global. F150 isn't an economy car.

An example of an economy car is a Civic, Corolla CR-V, Accord, Mazda 6, Crosstrek just to list a few.

So not even in the topic.  I agree there are cheaper cars. Batteries are expensive.  They’re made with rare metal.  In the US Lithium mining is crazy.  They pump water out of a prehistoric underground lake in the southwest somewhere and dig the lithium out of the water.  Very expensive.  Just checked prices. Lithium carbonate, which isn’t even pure metallic lithium is $8.75/kg.  Metals are often priced by the metric ton.  Some like gold are priced by Troy ounce which is 32.15t oz per kilogram apparently.  Lithium carbonate  appears to have been trending slightly down lately.

[Bombastinator]

12 minutes ago, comander said:

If you adjust for inflation and say that was ~25-30 years ago, 13k then is like 25k now. No idea when that model was sold. 

Yeah, everything has doubled in nominal terms in my lifetime... housing quadtrupled though. 

I remember in the third grade going to the local bodega and hunting through the baskets of gum packets for the ones at the bottom that only cost a dime.  They tended to be kinda hard