Wow, thought she was smarter.

[ARikozuM]

33 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Idk why you bring up the lottery. Most people dont win the lottery. Most people dont even play the lottery.

She made most of her money when the economies were much stronger for the middle class. It is much harder to make things happen today when there is no support for you. More than half of new businesses close before their 2nd year. It isn't just luck, but time. The latest generation is not only banking on debt to get them to better positions, but also being thrown into a market that does nothing for them except demand that they work 40 hours for less [buying power] than the previous generation. 

[Commodus]

1 hour ago, comander said:

Luck (being born talented, starting with decent resources, etc.) matters. So does preparation. 

The current fad of blaming everything on luck hurts people. 

There should be a culture of diligence and persistence. MANY people aren't living up to their potential. 

In many cases, it's less about what you have and more about how you use it and the habits you build. 

I wouldn't say people are blaming everything on luck, at least not the people with nuanced opinions.

 

Rather, the point is to get away from that Ayn Rand myth that the people who are successful got there solely through hard work and talent.    Yes, you can have people like Corcoran who came from poverty to earn their fortune, but you can also have someone who comes from poverty, works two jobs and bends over backwards for their family... and never finds that opportunity to start a business, never gets the educational opportunities or dies young because their stress led to an illness they couldn't afford to treat.  In other words, luck and circumstances matter.

 

Likewise, while it is true that many people don't live up to their potential, there are many wealthy people who will never have to worry about fulfilling that potential because their family investments have them set for life; they just have to be good enough at business (if they have to work at all) to live la dolce vita.  And let's not forget how it's all too common for people to "fail up" the corporate ladder, whether it's because of connections or just management willing to be far more forgiving of a failed executive than a rank-and-file employee.

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, comander said:

If you filter away the most extreme cases though, for something like 90% of people a very big boost in quality of life, health, relationships, happiness, etc. can be had by establishing a good plan or two, having a reasonably good but not exceptional execution and reasonably good habits. 

 

If you have a situation where people say (or imply) "don't even try" you end up killing hope and a self fulfilling prophecy is created. I'd argue it's unethical to tell people it's hopeless since that causes more harm than good. 

 

Imagine if your biggest supporter told you to give up and walked away. How different would your life be?

And where do those good habits or even the knowledge that they exist come from?  Privelidge.

[RonnieOP]

32 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

You’re asking for an absolute out of a probability.
 

There are a lot of mitigating factors and they’re hard to separate.  Part of luck is things like decent childhood nutrition and education and health care, which would include safe upbringing and other things that are being assumed here.  I brought up the lottery because it’s a fake theoretical free bump into a higher socioeconomic class.  Most people can do math, so few people play.  They can do math because they had education though.  There’s also a desperation factor.   The lottery is the most popular amongst the parts of society who can least afford to play because they are the most desperate.  The things used to be illegal.

 

As for that “math”. What you have tried to imply is that 73% of people make 100k.  Getting 73% out of 20% is pretty hard to do of course. 73% are part of the 20% some of the time huh?  I doubt that.  The hereditary 1%ers in there?  They would have to be. Cut out the top and bottom few percent off that and the numbers change very fast. Statistics are funny things. If you pick the right ones almost anything can be supported. America is still a more fortunate country than many.  My point is it is getting less so for a large section of the population while getting immensely easy for a few percent.  These few percent generally defend themselves with exceptionalism. They attribute things to hard work that wouldn’t have been possible without privilege.  It’s just a probability though.  A higher probability than in the miflddle ages.  And a lower one than it was.  People ignore education or other opportunities they receive.  More and more people aren’t getting those.  Especially people who are the wrong color or the wrong sex.  If a few people get vastly richer while the majority get poorer the number remains the same.

 

Any isn’t any anymore.  It used to be.

I dont know why you doubt that 73% of people in America will be in the top 20% of earners at some point in their life. Its really not that hard.

 

Right now I could get any able bodied person a bus ticket to ND and a guaranteed job starting out at over 50k. No education needed. The company will pay the bus ticket and give you a place to stay for the first 3 months. I send their business card to prisoners every year.

 

You keep saying its hard to make it in the US..its not. The vast vast majority of the country makes good money. Now how they spend that money is a whole different topic. 

 

Theres literally no factual proof that "privileged" is needed to make it.

[Bombastinator]

1 minute ago, RonnieOP said:

I dont know why you doubt that 73% of people in America will be in the top 20% of earners at some point in their life. Its really not that hard.

 

Right now I could get any able bodied person a bus ticket to ND and a guaranteed job starting out at over 50k. No education needed. The company will pay the bus ticket and give you a place to stay for the first 3 months. I send their business card to prisoners every year.

 

You keep saying its hard to make it in the US..its not. The vast vast majority of the country makes good money. Now how they spend that money is a whole different topic. 

 

Theres literally no factual proof that "privileged" is needed to make it.

Again absolutes out of probabilities

[RonnieOP]

Just now, Bombastinator said:

And where do those good habits or even the knowledge that they exist come from?  Privelidge.

How does that even make sense in your head?

 

You dont need any sort of privilege to learn good habits or obtain knowledge. 

[Bombastinator]

Just now, RonnieOP said:

How does that even make sense in your head?

 

You dont need any sort of privilege to learn good habits or obtain knowledge. 

Need?  As in absolutely required?  No.  It’s harder though.  Harder enough to make a difference.

[ARikozuM]

54 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

How does that even make sense in your head?

 

You dont need any sort of privilege to learn good habits or obtain knowledge. 

Because you're assuming that your situation is penultimate.

 

Edit: Poor word choice. 

[RonnieOP]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

Need?  As in absolutely required?  No.  It’s harder though.  Harder enough to make a difference.

Something being "harder" doesnt mean its impossible. Something being "harder" isnt even a good excuse at all. It means literally nothing unless someone uses it as an excuse as to why they dont prosper.

 

Hence why i said people have to be able to work hard and sacrifice.

 

 

[Bombastinator]

2 minutes ago, comander said:

In my case, a Google search. 

 

Literally Google "top careers for ivy league students" and "how to break into X"

 

The information is freely available for the taking. 

 

Also Asian kids from poor immigrant families aren't privileged. 

Depends on how you count it.  A child who has parents that care for them and feed them and value education and try to instill values and skills in them at an early age is not something everyone gets.  There are ways they aren’t.  There are very common privileges they don’t receive.  

[Bombastinator]

3 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Something being "harder" doesnt mean its impossible. Something being "harder" isnt even a good excuse at all. It means literally nothing unless someone uses it as an excuse as to why they dont prosper.

 

Hence why i said people have to be able to work hard and sacrifice.

 

 

So full binary.  If it’s not 100% it’s zero percent. I point you back at the Middle Ages example.

[dalekphalm]

17 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

Because you're assuming that your situation is penultimate.

Sort of a nitpick here, but I don't think penultimate means what you think it means in this context. Penultimate literally means "second to last" or "second last" - eg: the penultimate chapter in a book is the 2nd last chapter.

[RonnieOP]

14 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Depends on how you count it.  A child who has parents that care for them and feed them and value education and try to instill values and skills in them at an early age is not something everyone gets.  There are ways they aren’t.  There are very common privileges they don’t receive.  

You dont need them too. Sure its better if you do. but its not mandatory.

 

You can make up excuses for everyone that doesnt prosper but what good does that do? If someone lets difficulties in their life from keeping them from prospering then thats their own fault. (naturally there are some that are legit and not in their control but those are not the majority by any means).

 

Yes itll be harder, doesnt mean it isnt doable.

 

Whats going to help someone more. Telling them the truth and saying that if they work hard and make wise decisions that they will prosper. Or lying to them and saying "life didnt give you a fair shake. Your just never going to make it. oh i know plenty of less fortunate people made it just fine. but they are the exception."

 

The percentage of people that dont make it in America are the minority.

 

[RonnieOP]

7 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Sort of a nitpick here, but I don't think penultimate means what you think it means in this context. Penultimate literally means "second to last" or "second last" - eg: the penultimate chapter in a book is the 2nd last chapter.

Tbh i skipped that comment cause i had no clue what they were getting at. Good to know im not a complete idiot when it comes to words lol.

[RonnieOP]

12 minutes ago, comander said:

In my own case I grew up with my parents telling me that it'd be a huge shame if I weren't successful, who gave me basically the bare minimum in resources (though there was always food and shelter, just an underlying fear that a single job loss could generate financial ruin), and told me that their path wouldn't work anymore. 


Everything that I did, I was told would be harder than it was. "ohh finished high school with honors, i was worried you'd take 5 years like me", "ohh finished undergrad with honors, I didn't expect you'd finish", "ohh you finished grad school with honors, I don't know how you did it", "you got into [Facebook/Google/Amazon/McKinsey/Uber/Netflix] that's good, right?"


In terms of financial aid through undergrad... basically none from my parents and not much from formal financial aid systems - I worked, A LOT. I lived in a car for a while. I calculated cost per-calorie when buying food. I cut A LOT of corners. 

The flip of it, I'm a 1%er now. 

I screwed around a lot. I made a lot of mistakes. I had basically 0 guidance other than the internet. All those "DEI" programs meant to help the little guy spat in my face because I have the wrong skin color and gonads and on paper my family had wealth (just none that went to me). 

I have a hard time imagining people with way more resources struggling. With that said, I'm also the jerk who got near perfect SAT/ACT/GRE/GMAT/LSAT with minimal effort so there's that. 

I don't think that everything I did is replicable. I do think that doing a so-so job at things is doable. Not enough people try to make life into a game and then beat it. 

I literally cannot express in words how much i agree with this.

 

Its not going to be easy for everyone. But for the vast majority it is very doable.

 

For years me and my wife would only make meals that could be made for under x amount of dollars and last x amount of days. Little ceasars $5 pizza literally kept us from starving some weeks. Ive eaten enough variants of rice and beans to the point that I wont ever eat it again lol.

 

During winter we turned our living room into everyones bedroom and used covers naild to the walls to block off the other rooms so we only had to heat that area.

 

Its a struggle. but it pays off in the end.

[RonnieOP]

Also I really hope mods dont lock this. I know its semi political but its a really healthy conversation and I feel we are all acting like adults despite disagreeing.

[Bombastinator]

11 minutes ago, comander said:

In my own case I grew up with my parents telling me that it'd be a huge shame if I weren't successful, who gave me basically the bare minimum in resources (though there was always food and shelter, just an underlying fear that a single job loss could generate financial ruin), and told me that their path wouldn't work anymore. 


Everything that I did, I was told would be harder than it was. "ohh finished high school with honors, i was worried you'd take 5 years like me", "ohh finished college, I didn't expect you'd finish", "ohh you finished grad school with honors, I don't know how you did it", "you got into [Facebook/Google/Amazon/McKinsey/Uber/Netflix] that's good, right?"


In terms of financial aid through undergrad... basically none from my parents and not much from formal financial aid systems - I worked, A LOT (had a couple of 60 hour weeks while in school full time). I lived in a car for a while. I calculated cost per-calorie when buying food. I cut A LOT of corners. My own savings was my safety net. 

The flip of it, I'm a 1%er now. 

I screwed around a lot. I made a lot of mistakes. I had basically 0 guidance other than the internet. All those "DEI" programs meant to help the little guy spat in my face because I have the wrong skin color and gonads and on paper my family had wealth (just none that went to me). 

I have a hard time imagining people with way more resources struggling. With that said, I'm also the jerk who got near perfect SAT/ACT/GRE/GMAT/LSAT with minimal effort so there's that. Maybe I'm privileged by means of a higher IQ. Not many people who hadn't taken a rigorous humanities course since age 16 end up outdoing the typical Ivy League English PhD on the GRE verbal/analytical writing. 

I don't think that everything I did is replicable. I do think that doing a so-so job at things is doable (I can confidently say that I'm a bit lacking on executive function). It's not THAT hard to game resume building. It's not THAT hard to put in 100 hours of interview practice by the time you're 20. It's not that hard to make sure your part time job is quasi-relevant to your longer term goals (mine wasn't, I wish I had more wisdom there).

Not enough people try to make life into a game and then beat it. There are books on how to do this. Audiobooks for those who hate reading. 

For what it's worth, my fiance's path was similar, though her uneducated immigrant parents started poorer, ended up richer and gave her a lot more resources. She's not as smart as me but does much better wrt executive functioning and conscientiousness. 

This 0 guidance thing.  It doesn’t sound that way.  Graduates high school.  Got to go to college.  These are things either not everyone gets of very few people get.  Being pushed too hard as a kid is not zero guidance.  It might be too much guidance, but it wasn’t zero.  A lot more than a lot of kids get actually.  100 hours of interview practice?  A lot of people don’t get 10.  Or 1. What if you’d never even heard of interview practice?  IQ helps.  How much would it have helped if you were never taught to read?  That happens in the US.  More than it used to.  What if that IQ never developed because you spent your childhood malnourished?  Frequently it’s the little things.  The early things.  The did a little early things program in the US some years ago called “head start”. All it did was made sure kids had basic nutrition and got to school.  That’s it.  It was cheap.  Really cheap.  A pittance.  The results were outstanding.  It was killed.

[RonnieOP]

8 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

This 0 guidance thing.  It doesn’t sound that way.  Graduates high school.  Got to go to college.  These are things either not everyone gets of very few people get.  Being pushed too hard as a kid is not zero guidance.  It might be too much guidance, but it wasn’t zero.  A lot more than a lot of kids get actually.  100 hours of interview practice?  A lot of people don’t get 10.  Or 1. What if you’d never even heard of interview practice?  IQ helps.  How much would it have helped if you were never taught to read?  That happens in the US.  More than it used to.  What if that IQ never developed because you spent your childhood malnourished?  Frequently it’s the little things.  The early things.  The did a little early things program in the US some years ago called “head start”. All it did was made sure kids had basic nutrition and got to school.  That’s it.  It was cheap.  Really cheap.  A pittance.  The results were outstanding.  It was killed.

 

Head start is still alive. Not to mention all the other well fare programs we have.

 

It isnt cheap to run though and the results were not good in a lot of studies.

 

[ARikozuM]

33 minutes ago, dalekphalm said:

Sort of a nitpick here, but I don't think penultimate means what you think it means in this context. Penultimate literally means "second to last" or "second last" - eg: the penultimate chapter in a book is the 2nd last chapter.

He started with "anyone can do it with hard work" and then "if I can do it for others, they can do it too".

 

Edit: Good catch. I meant to say presumptive. 

[RonnieOP]

5 minutes ago, ARikozuM said:

He started with "anyone can do it with hard work" and then "if I can do it for others, they can do it too".

 

Edit: Good catch. I meant to say presumptive. 

The vast majority can do it with hard work. And the majority do. Sure we can find outliers. but those are exceptions not the rule.

 

Like I said theres literally nothing special about me. Average IQ, no special skills growing up, no direction in life, poor a shit, drug addict parents, horrible grades in school, did multiple stints in jail from 18-20 and was in prison at age 21, and had a child when i was 15 years old.

 

If my dumbass can prosper by virtue of nothing but hard work and sacrifice, then just about anyone can.

 

You dont have to be a top earner to prosper. You dont have to have the nicest things, live in the nicest home, etc. It doesnt take much to live comfortably in the US.

[Bombastinator]

37 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

 

Head start is still alive. Not to mention all the other well fare programs we have.

 

It isnt cheap to run though and the results were not good in a lot of studies.

 

Not so I’ve heard.  My information is it was killed years ago.  There was a big thing in the late 80’s about how the gop killed it.  Junior bush might have brought it back.  Why he thought he would be considered “the education president” he wasn’t much interested in kids after grade school of course.

 

wasnt my point though.  It was that early childhood can make a difference.

Edited March 3, 2020 by Bombastinator
Addendum added.

[RonnieOP]

5 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

Not so I’ve heard.  My information is it was killed years ago.  There was a big thing in the late 80’s about how the gop killed it.  Junior bush might have brought it back.  Why he thought he would be considered “the education president” he wasn’t much interested in kids after grade school of course.

Idk who told you that head start was killed but it wasnt.  

 

[Bombastinator]

8 minutes ago, RonnieOP said:

Idk who told you that head start was killed but it wasnt.  

 

I’m pretty sure it was killed.  It may have been brought back, but it was dead at one point. Still not the issue.

[Bombastinator]

1 hour ago, RonnieOP said:

 

Head start is still alive. Not to mention all the other well fare programs we have.

 

It isnt cheap to run though and the results were not good in a lot of studies.

 

It cheap in terms of return, and it is compared to other federal programs.  Success is always variable by area with that stuff. 

[RonnieOP]

3 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I’m pretty sure it was killed.  It may have been brought back, but it was dead at one point. Still not the issue.

It wasnt killed.

 

Im not sure why you keep saying it was. Its been around since the 60s where it was a summer school program and then in the 90s was expanded further.

 

I literally cant find anything saying it was killed at any point outside of you saying it lol.