Cooling the 3970x

[Craig Chapman]

Hi all!

I am new to the forums and come here looking for help.

 

I have very limited experience with building systems, but just got done building a.3970x rig on Gigabyte Aorus Xtreme. There are two AMD RX580 installed also.

 

I have very modest cooling. The three fans which came with the Fractal Design XL R2 configured as two front intake, one rear exhaust. The PSU is configured at the bottom upside down to exhaust through the bottom of the case.

Those case fans are all three pin, so connected directly to a molex and not the mb.

The CPU has a noctua (I think the only model available for Threadripper 3), heatsink and fan.

Hi

(Edit: NH-U14S TR4-SP3)

 

I am seeing idle temps at 65C-68C, and raising quickly to 85C, and slowly up from there under load.

 

I am told the amd website lists safe temps up to 95, but this all just feels a little too toasty to me, and I do plan to stress this CPU. 

 

So my questions:

1) What actually are reasonable CPU temps?

 

2) Is this to be expected with such modest cooling? I.E. could I have done something wrong during installation of the cooler, or have I heavily under-estimated the cooling requirements?

 

3) Are better quality case fans likely to make a significant difference, or should I be looking at water? (I don't care about noise, but wanted to avoid the maintenance of water cooling, which is all new to me)

 

Help me L.T.T forums, please!

 

[Streetguru]

8 minutes ago, Craig Chapman said:

 

You could just do a custom water cooling loop with a 360 AIO

 

or what cooler is it exactly? Doesn't noctua only make single tower TR4 coolers?

[Fasauceome]

12 minutes ago, Craig Chapman said:

am seeing idle temps at 65C-68C, and raising quickly to 85C, and slowly up from there under load.

 

I am told the amd website lists safe temps up to 95, but this all just feels a little too toasty to me, and I do plan to stress this CPU

Steady state temps matter a lot here, the temps may climb from 85 but if it stabilizes at 89 then that's a different story

[Craig Chapman]

NH-U14S TR4-SP3 cooler

[Jurrunio]

Good thermal paste spread?

[Craig Chapman]

1 minute ago, Fasauceome said:

Steady state temps matter a lot here, the temps may climb from 85 but if it stabilizes at 89 then that's a different story

It does become stable at around 89-90, but at that temp I haven't let the stress test continue for more than about a minute.

[Bombastinator]

A religious question.  Heat shortens CPU life. Lack of heat lengthens it.  The old school number was you wanted to keep things below 75c if you wanted them to last a really long time.  That number may no longer be accurate though.  The device will last a reasonable length of time at 95c. There are laptops made now that actually rely on processor thermal throttling and mostly live at 95c all the time.

 

So there is the old school and the new school.

 

Basically its how much do you trust the manufacturer that a “reasonable time” is longer than their warranty?

[Craig Chapman]

1 minute ago, Jurrunio said:

Good thermal paste spread?

I believe so. My one concern is that I did lift the cooler back off the CPU and reseat during the build. Coverage looked good but it had sat overnight between initial application and reseating. I don't know too much about the chemical properties of the paste either, but maybe I should reseat again with new paste.

[Guest]

That seems high. I experimented with bad cooling on my 3970X (a 120 AIO that barely covered the CPU) and my temps were better than that. I would definitely try to repaste and check mounting pressure.

[Craig Chapman]

10 minutes ago, Craig Chapman said:

I believe so. My one concern is that I did lift the cooler back off the CPU and reseat during the build. Coverage looked good but it had sat overnight between initial application and reseating. I don't know too much about the chemical properties of the paste either, but maybe I should reseat again with new paste.

I am going to start with replacing the paste and see if it helps

[Bombastinator]

Just now, Craig Chapman said:

I am going to start with replacing the paste and see if it helps

My memory is that the standard “bead” system doesn’t work as well for ryzen chips because they’re not a single piece.  Might do to look at some vids specifically on pasting thread ripper.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Bombastinator said:

My memory is that the standard “bead” system doesn’t work as well for ryzen chips because they’re not a single piece.  Might do to look at some vids specifically on pasting thread ripper.

I always go giant X with small beads in between on TR. Hasn't done me wrong yet.

[Craig Chapman]

1 hour ago, Den-Fi said:

I always go giant X with small beads in between on TR. Hasn't done me wrong yet.

Well, I tried a re-paste and it has helped.

There was too much paste on there to start with, cleaned it all over and used a spreader to make sure a thin even coat across the surface.
Now I'm seeing temps fluctuate between 53C-63C at idle, and it becomes stable right at 95C under load. Ran load for about 10 minutes and it just sat at 95C, maybe it was throttling, I'm not sure how I'd tell, but at least it didn't produce smoke :)
I still think this is a little hot, but it doesn't make me nearly as nervous.

I'd still appreciate suggestions for bringing the temps down some. Right now I'm thinking it can't hurt to replace the case fans with some more substantial.
Thanks for the suggestions to check/replace the paste.

 

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Craig Chapman said:

Well, I tried a re-paste and it has helped.

There was too much paste on there to start with, cleaned it all over and used a spreader to make sure a thin even coat across the surface.
Now I'm seeing temps fluctuate between 53C-63C at idle, and it becomes stable right at 95C under load. Ran load for about 10 minutes and it just sat at 95C, maybe it was throttling, I'm not sure how I'd tell, but at least it didn't produce smoke
I still think this is a little hot, but it doesn't make me nearly as nervous.

I'd still appreciate suggestions for bringing the temps down some. Right now I'm thinking it can't hurt to replace the case fans with some more substantial.
Thanks for the suggestions to check/replace the paste.

 

Yeah, idk if I'd be comfortable at 95C for long periods. What do you have against AIOs? There's no maintenance really.

[Bombastinator]

46 minutes ago, Craig Chapman said:

Well, I tried a re-paste and it has helped.

There was too much paste on there to start with, cleaned it all over and used a spreader to make sure a thin even coat across the surface.
Now I'm seeing temps fluctuate between 53C-63C at idle, and it becomes stable right at 95C under load. Ran load for about 10 minutes and it just sat at 95C, maybe it was throttling, I'm not sure how I'd tell, but at least it didn't produce smoke
I still think this is a little hot, but it doesn't make me nearly as nervous.

I'd still appreciate suggestions for bringing the temps down some. Right now I'm thinking it can't hurt to replace the case fans with some more substantial.
Thanks for the suggestions to check/replace the paste.

 

That means it’s throttling I suspect.  Ryzen 2 self overclocks. It might just push itself to 95c no matter what Without some sort of check.  Not sure.  I’m not too familiar with ryzen in general and definitely not a big girl like that one.

[Bombastinator]

23 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

Yeah, idk if I'd be comfortable at 95C for long periods. What do you have against AIOs? There's no maintenance really.

There are arguments against AIOs.  They have moving parts that can break is the big one.  I personally quit using them because while an AIO with no bubbles is theoretically possible it doesn’t seem to happen that often in practice and an AIO with a bubble in it is noisier than an air cooler.  They do have higher max wattage levels than air coolers though.

[Guest]

10 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

There are arguments against AIOs.  They have moving parts that can break is the big one.  I personally quit using them because while an AIO with no bubbles is theoretically possible it doesn’t seem to happen that often in practice and an AIO with a bubble in it is noisier than an air cooler.  They do have higher max wattage levels than air coolers though.

I fully understand why someone in general wouldn't want one. I more specifically wanted to know why he didn't. He states noise isn't a concern in his original statement, so I wanted to see if I could help with whatever concerns he specifically had. This chip was just plain not meant for air coolers, so getting him on the path to cooling it properly was my goal in asking.

[Craig Chapman]

47 minutes ago, Den-Fi said:

I fully understand why someone in general wouldn't want one. I more specifically wanted to know why he didn't. He states noise isn't a concern in his original statement, so I wanted to see if I could help with whatever concerns he specifically had. This chip was just plain not meant for air coolers, so getting him on the path to cooling it properly was my goal in asking.

Really just a lack of experience with them. I wanted to build the system myself, and just wouldn't know where to begin with water. I've built several computers over the years, but have always been more comfortable writing software than building hardware  
If water is the way to go, then that's what I'll do, and I'll pay someone to save me having to do it.

When selecting the cooler for this system, all the reviews I could find suggested that water really didn't add much cooling for longer work-loads, that it really just smooths out spikes due to the larger heat dump - so I figured I could get away with air.
 

[Craig Chapman]

Just now, Craig Chapman said:

Really just a lack of experience with them. I wanted to build the system myself, and just wouldn't know where to begin with water. I've built several computers over the years, but have always been more comfortable writing software than building hardware  
If water is the way to go, then that's what I'll do, and I'll pay someone to save me having to do it.

When selecting the cooler for this system, all the reviews I could find suggested that water really didn't add much cooling for longer work-loads, that it really just smooths out spikes due to the larger heat dump - so I figured I could get away with air.
 

As an additional aside - my original plan for this build was to put four RX580's in it (rescued from a previous build). Unfortunately that's just too much PCI-E to put on the board, and I got the BIOS code when doing post test.  So I removed one and it lit up fine, but the PCI slots are too close together, in tower orientation the fans of one card literally touched the next, so I stripped back to two.  If I go water, I can at least put the third graphics card back in it, so I guess that really is the way to go.

 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, Craig Chapman said:

Really just a lack of experience with them. I wanted to build the system myself, and just wouldn't know where to begin with water. I've built several computers over the years, but have always been more comfortable writing software than building hardware  
If water is the way to go, then that's what I'll do, and I'll pay someone to save me having to do it.

When selecting the cooler for this system, all the reviews I could find suggested that water really didn't add much cooling for longer work-loads, that it really just smooths out spikes due to the larger heat dump - so I figured I could get away with air.
 

I think you're confusing custom loops with all in one liquid coolers.

 

Custom loop:

 

All in one cooler:

 

With an AIO, you've only got to mount the block, then the radiator and fans. Not much guess work.

With a custom loop... yeah, things get interesting. It's not nearly as hard as I thought it was, especially if you go soft tubing, but it sounds like you just need a good full-coverage AIO (i.e. not Asetek based. I use the Cooler Master ML360 TR4). Even if you went custom loop, it's not worth the cost to put blocks on the RX580s.

 

[Craig Chapman]

1 minute ago, Den-Fi said:

I think you're confusing custom loops with all in one liquid coolers.

 

Custom loop:

 

All in one cooler:

 

With an AIO, you've only got to mount the block, then the radiator and fans. Not much guess work.

With a custom loop... yeah, things get interesting. It's not nearly as hard as I thought it was, especially if you go soft tubing, but it sounds like you just need a good full-coverage AIO. Even if you went custom loop, it's not worth the cost to put blocks on the RX580s.

 

Yes, I was confusing them. I think I could easily fit an AIO myself, so I'll start with that.

"...it's not worth the cost to put blocks on the RX580s" - I'd like to explain my build, in case you can offer more suggestions.

The setup: The reason for building this system in the first place is for some machine learning experiments, which benefit from parallel processing, hence the Threadripper and all the GPU's I'm trying to cram in. Most machine learning is done using off the shelf software which works well with both green and red branded graphics cards. I wrote my own custom machine learning software, which is able to take advantage of features exclusive to AMD devices (half-precision floats). The advantage is that when I bought the 580's for a previous rig, I could get near nVidia equivalent performance out of them (using those half precision floats) and so it made a great "bang-for-buck" option. However, I was running them in a BTC bitcoin mining board with very limited PCI lanes to the cards. I hoped with this board to get 2-x8 and 2-x16 and didn't have the budget to upgrade them after the TR3, Aorus xtreme, 64GB 3200 dominator.

At this point, I think you're right that cooling blocks for the 580's is an expense for cards which will likely get upgraded the next time my pockets feel deep. Having said that, if I ever hope to run three GPU's in this rig, I will need to go custom loop in any case, so maybe it is worth doing sooner rather than later. *note: I have space for two radiators in this case, so the CPU would remain isolated from that loop.  I'd appreciate any thoughts you have.

Ultimately though, I'm going to stick an AIO in here before I put load on that CPU thanks to your clarification. Thank you!

 

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Craig Chapman said:

Yes, I was confusing them. I think I could easily fit an AIO myself, so I'll start with that.

"...it's not worth the cost to put blocks on the RX580s" - I'd like to explain my build, in case you can offer more suggestions.

The setup: The reason for building this system in the first place is for some machine learning experiments, which benefit from parallel processing, hence the Threadripper and all the GPU's I'm trying to cram in. Most machine learning is done using off the shelf software which works well with both green and red branded graphics cards. I wrote my own custom machine learning software, which is able to take advantage of features exclusive to AMD devices (half-precision floats). The advantage is that when I bought the 580's for a previous rig, I could get near nVidia equivalent performance out of them (using those half precision floats) and so it made a great "bang-for-buck" option. However, I was running them in a BTC bitcoin mining board with very limited PCI lanes to the cards. I hoped with this board to get 2-x8 and 2-x16 and didn't have the budget to upgrade them after the TR3, Aorus xtreme, 64GB 3200 dominator.

At this point, I think you're right that cooling blocks for the 580's is an expense for cards which will likely get upgraded the next time my pockets feel deep. Having said that, if I ever hope to run three GPU's in this rig, I will need to go custom loop in any case, so maybe it is worth doing sooner rather than later. *note: I have space for two radiators in this case, so the CPU would remain isolated from that loop.  I'd appreciate any thoughts you have.

Ultimately though, I'm going to stick an AIO in here before I put load on that CPU thanks to your clarification. Thank you!

 

No prob! Yeah, the AIO route is best. Avoid Enermax AIOs and make sure the one you get has a coldplate meant for TR4.

I didn't mean to imply that the 580s are bad cards, just that the cheapest full cover block I've seen is like $110. Considering the value of RX580s these days, it's just hard to see much value in it. Though maybe there are some half cover blocks or something that might be worth it. I'm no expert though so I'll tag in @Damascus.

[Bombastinator]

I would say it’s not designed for watercooling either.  It an enterprise chip.  It was designed for server racks that use passive air cooling with gigantic high noise fans in the front.  This is not to say an AIO wouldn’t work though.

[Zando_]

2 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I would say it’s not designed for watercooling either.  It an enterprise chip.  It was designed for server racks that use passive air cooling with gigantic high noise fans in the front.  This is not to say an AIO wouldn’t work though.

That's Epyc. Threadripper is HEDT/workstation hardware. Not designed with racks in mind, built more for standard tower PCs. It can go in racks, but so can literally any CPU/mobo combo on the planet (I believe there's even rackmount cases for the HPTX form factor, or ones that can unofficially fit it). 

Why not leave the saying to people who actually own and work with the hardware?

[Guest]

17 minutes ago, Bombastinator said:

I would say it’s not designed for watercooling either.  It an enterprise chip.  It was designed for server racks that use passive air cooling with gigantic high noise fans in the front.  This is not to say an AIO wouldn’t work though.

From AMD's own materials:

AMD Ryzen™ Threadripper™ processors with up to 280W TDP require the type of robust cooling solutions provided by premium liquid cooling*. The following list contains some of the thermal solutions submitted by manufacturers with specifications to support AMD Ryzen™ Threadripper™ Processors.

 

EPYC chips don't push the kind of clocks that Threadripper chips do, so they don't need to be cooled as aggressively. I get that you are trying to help, but if you don't know what you're talking about, it's best to not attempt to do so.