Han Solo Vs. James T. Kirk

[Mutoh]

2 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

None of what you just said invalidates any of my points.

 

Also Kirk didn't trick Khan into self destructing. Khan did that as a suicide attack to try and take Kirk out with him. He knew his ship was wrecked, half his crew were dead, and he himself was likely dying - they took a hit to the bridge, not many ways of coming out of that a victor.

 

Kirk outsmarted Khan. And that was mostly because Kirk has experience in Space Naval Warfare, something Khan has never done before. Khan was obviously far more intelligent than Kirk, but he thought in terms of 2D strategies, because that's the kind of warfare he has experience in from back on Earth during the Eugenics Wars.

I'd say that's pretty much a wash at best. The Star Wars galaxy (especially during the time Solo is alive) is simply a more dangerous place compared to the Federation.

We've basically never seen Kirk pilot a small craft (except for possibly in the Kelvin verse?), so while he's likely an excellent Starship pilot, as I previously said, if it was fighter craft or small craft (small freighters, etc), Solo is at a huge advantage here.

 

I'd say that at best, Kirk and Solo are equal pilots, if not Solo being the obvious superior pilot.

Hyperdrive is exponentially faster than Warp Speed, so yes, that definitely gives Solo another advantage - though I prefer to assume they're using the same or similar technology when comparing them. I assume you were being hyperbolic with "Teleport around", but just in case people are less familiar with Star Wars, Hyperdrive does not utilize teleportation.

So distracting Khan, forceably turning off his shields, hiding in a nebula and then popping the Reliant from the back is your idea of an honorable action? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Definitely isn't honorable by Klingon standards!

 

 

I'd also say claiming one universe is more dangerous than the other without direct comparison and scale is a wash myself but feel free to disagree. The safest time in the federation was during TNG and this was hundreds of years prior. Many dangerous wars have taken place and it's not like the Federation had enemies that weren't willing to annihilate a planet like the Imperials do.

 

 

Also, they definitely aren't the same considering hyperdrive consists of lanes that ships can more or less teleport to something that is from the outer rim all the way to the core worlds. Warp drive produces a field around the ship allowing it to travel FTL, not dissimilar to real warp theories.

[Zando_]

19 hours ago, MarbleHornets said:

You are right there, because Solo was promoted to General 

 

I have to let my star wars bias take over here. Han was best imperial pilot that went through the academy despite having no prior training, served front lines in the Imperial Calvary during literal trench warfare, was able to escape from multiple assassins, bounty hunters, and Imperial Navel forces despite only having a co-pilot; not an entire crew to his disposable, became a General in the Rebellion, lead his own team of special forces from the front lines, created his own legitimate and well know shipping company after the way, and was married to a Galactic Senator of the New Rebellion. I still have to tip my hat towards him. 

Not to mention his ship is a hunk of junk, it's literally a standard cargo freighter with military class hardware slapped on to it more jankily than LTT's home cooked heatsinks, yet it's still survived all this time and been used for a lot of missions (and to kill the 2nd Death Star, but it was piloted by the original owner, Lando, at that time). He's outflown and outsmarted ace Imperial pilots and swarms of TIEs, was only tracked down to Bespin by Boba Fett (who was the best bounty hunter of his time), on top of all the things you already mentioned. 

[Zando_]

18 minutes ago, Mutoh said:

Also, they definitely aren't the same considering hyperdrive consists of lanes that ships can more or less teleport to something that is from the outer rim all the way to the core worlds. Warp drive produces a field around the ship allowing it to travel FTL, not dissimilar to real warp theories.

You can actually fire your hyperdrive in any direction, hyperdrive lanes are just known safe zones (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Hyperspace_route), if you blast off willy nilly you'll collide with a planet or another ship and that's not gonna end well. I need to brush up on my hyperdrive tech though, IIRC you don't actually hit a planet or something, you hit an alternate version of it but that still effects the one in this dimension or something. Hyperdrives jump you into an alternate dimension I think... 

 

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Hyperdrive

 

Yeah, they don't actually propel the ship, they drop you into hyperspace (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Hyperspace) and then pop you out somewhere else, letting you get places a lot faster. And like these articles say, Han solo has pulled off "impossible" feats like exiting hyperspace while inside the atmosphere of a planet and not crashing destroying his ship. Has a knack for piloting for sure, the precise timing needed to pull that off is near inhuman. 

[Mutoh]

So its still more or less magic flying

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, Mutoh said:

So distracting Khan, forceably turning off his shields, hiding in a nebula and then popping the Reliant from the back is your idea of an honorable action? I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Definitely isn't honorable by Klingon standards!

I wouldn't call it honourable or dishonourable. Kirk just used his environment to his advantage and manipulated his opponent into a scenario that leveled the playing field.

1 hour ago, Mutoh said:

I'd also say claiming one universe is more dangerous than the other without direct comparison and scale is a wash myself but feel free to disagree. The safest time in the federation was during TNG and this was hundreds of years prior. Many dangerous wars have taken place and it's not like the Federation had enemies that weren't willing to annihilate a planet like the Imperials do.

Yes, the TNG era is much safer than the TOS era. But the TOS era is still much safer than a LITERAL galaxy wide civil war. The Empire is bigger than the entire Alpha Quadrant.

1 hour ago, Mutoh said:

Also, they definitely aren't the same considering hyperdrive consists of lanes that ships can more or less teleport to something that is from the outer rim all the way to the core worlds. Warp drive produces a field around the ship allowing it to travel FTL, not dissimilar to real warp theories.

That's... not how hyperdrive works.

 

There's no teleportation. Hyperdrive is SIGNIFICANTLY faster (as in, 100's to 1000's of times faster) than Warp Drive, but it's still traveling in real time through Hyperspace (Star Wars equivalent to Subspace).

 

Hyerdrive travel tends to follow known routes because of how dangerous it is to travel along an unknown route. You could accidentally fly through a blackhole, for example. And yes, the safety systems should kick you out into realspace, but it might be too late.

 

Furthermore while there are real world theories around warp drive, let's not pretend that Warp Speed is any less "magic" than Hyperspace. Trek Warp Speed doesn't follow real world Warp Theories. It uses a made up realm called subspace, where in real theories, it's more about warping gravity instead.

 

I can definitely assume you're a huge trek fan. Me too! And that's awesome. But it does seem like you're giving extra credit to Kirk without considering Solo's advantages.

 

Definitely in some scenarios Kirk would have an advantage, such as capital ship naval combat. But ti dismiss the scenarios in which Solo would likely win is being disingenuous.

[Mutoh]

1 hour ago, dalekphalm said:

I wouldn't call it honourable or dishonourable. Kirk just used his environment to his advantage and manipulated his opponent into a scenario that leveled the playing field.

Yes, the TNG era is much safer than the TOS era. But the TOS era is still much safer than a LITERAL galaxy wide civil war. The Empire is bigger than the entire Alpha Quadrant.

That's... not how hyperdrive works.

 

There's no teleportation. Hyperdrive is SIGNIFICANTLY faster (as in, 100's to 1000's of times faster) than Warp Drive, but it's still traveling in real time through Hyperspace (Star Wars equivalent to Subspace).

 

Hyerdrive travel tends to follow known routes because of how dangerous it is to travel along an unknown route. You could accidentally fly through a blackhole, for example. And yes, the safety systems should kick you out into realspace, but it might be too late.

 

Furthermore while there are real world theories around warp drive, let's not pretend that Warp Speed is any less "magic" than Hyperspace. Trek Warp Speed doesn't follow real world Warp Theories. It uses a made up realm called subspace, where in real theories, it's more about warping gravity instead.

 

I can definitely assume you're a huge trek fan. Me too! And that's awesome. But it does seem like you're giving extra credit to Kirk without considering Solo's advantages.

 

Definitely in some scenarios Kirk would have an advantage, such as capital ship naval combat. But ti dismiss the scenarios in which Solo would likely win is being disingenuous.

Im actually more into Star Wars and have read more about it than I have Trek. I still have my SWTOR account, I still read my young Obi-Wan books and I still buy SW action figures but thanks for assuming my position.

 

IMO SW will always win these debates because more people like Star Wars and know more about it so its always harder to argue against because of bias. IMO I was being pretty objective aside from a couple of jokes about hyperdrive and han being a scumbag but if you think otherwise thats fine.

 

 

Also TOS isnt even my favorite series nor is Kirk my favorite captain. Han is one of my favorite characters aside from Revan and Bane in the SW Universe though. 

 

 

 

[dalekphalm]

1 hour ago, Mutoh said:

Im actually more into Star Wars and have read more about it than I have Trek. I still have my SWTOR account, I still read my young Obi-Wan books and I still buy SW action figures but thanks for assuming my position.

 

IMO SW will always win these debates because more people like Star Wars and know more about it so its always harder to argue against because of bias. IMO I was being pretty objective aside from a couple of jokes about hyperdrive and han being a scumbag but if you think otherwise thats fine.

 

 

Also TOS isnt even my favorite series nor is Kirk my favorite captain. Han is one of my favorite characters aside from Revan and Bane in the SW Universe though. 

That's fair enough - though your points still never disproved mine

 

I love Trek and Star Wars equally. It's not about which is "better". For example, who would I want commanding a fleet? Admiral Piett, or Captain Sisko? Sisko in a heart beat. Sisko is up there potentially with Ackbar and Bel Iblis, etc (As in, not Thrawn, but nobody is on Thrawn's level).

[Mutoh]

I wouldn't want Sisko commanding a fleet personally but between those choices I guess I'd go with Sisko too. 

[dalekphalm]

6 hours ago, Mutoh said:

I wouldn't want Sisko commanding a fleet personally but between those choices I guess I'd go with Sisko too. 

Why would you not want Sisko commanding a fleet? He's essentially the best Naval tactician we've ever seen Starfleet employ. He would wipe the floor with Kirk in a naval engagement.

 

He's a bit more morally ambiguous than Kirk is, mind you (him legit committing War Crimes when trying to capture Eddington, and again him turning a blind eye to Garak assassinating a Romulan senator to convince the Romulans to join the war). But despite those 2 morally questionable acts, he still mostly acts for the best interests of Humanity.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Forget Solo, Kirk, Sisko, and Piccard. Captain Kathryn Janeway and Captain Ed Mercer (yeah, I know he isn't Star Wars or Star Trek) are clearly the best!

 

[dalekphalm]

6 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Forget Solo, Kirk, Sisko, and Piccard. Captain Kathryn Janeway and Captain Ed Mercer (yeah, I know he isn't Star Wars or Star Trek) are clearly the best!

 

Janeway is definitely hardy and resourceful.

 

Mercer is definitely a favouriter though - The Orville is awesome (and my "hates scifi and superhero stuff" fiancee even loves The Orville).

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 minute ago, dalekphalm said:

Janeway is definitely hardy and resourceful.

 

Mercer is definitely a favouriter though - The Orville is awesome (and my "hates scifi and superhero stuff" fiancee even loves The Orville).

Not mention Janeway is way cuter.

 

I totally agree that The Orville is awsome!

[Mutoh]

On 3/14/2019 at 12:38 AM, dalekphalm said:

Why would you not want Sisko commanding a fleet? He's essentially the best Naval tactician we've ever seen Starfleet employ. He would wipe the floor with Kirk in a naval engagement.

 

He's a bit more morally ambiguous than Kirk is, mind you (him legit committing War Crimes when trying to capture Eddington, and again him turning a blind eye to Garak assassinating a Romulan senator to convince the Romulans to join the war). But despite those 2 morally questionable acts, he still mostly acts for the best interests of Humanity.

A bit more? I don't remember Kirk launching missles on a bunch of refugees LOL. IMO that was a bit more than a morally ambiguous action. 

 

I think that while Sisko did get the results, he more or less could've jeopardized the federation a lot more with his actions than somebody like a Picard or even a Janeway (or Kirk) would. Take your In the Pale Moonlight example. If it wasn't for Garak taking things into his own hand and assassinating that senator, Sisko would've been in huge trouble for what was more or less deception to incite a war between two parties that Starfleet already was having issues with. He also IMO was quite an emotional guy and acted on them often. That isn't something that I really look for in a commander. To me I think commanding isn't just about being the best Tactician on the battlefield either. 

[dalekphalm]

20 minutes ago, Mutoh said:

A bit more? I don't remember Kirk launching missles on a bunch of refugees LOL. IMO that was a bit more than a morally ambiguous action. 

To be fair, the episode in question is extremely unclear about exactly who is occupying the planet in question. If they were "proper" Maquis settlements, then if we consider the Maquis "terrorists" (Which, officially the Federation does... even if unofficially large segments of Starfleet are sympathetic to, or even outright support them), then attacking a "terrorist outpost" would be less objectively evil.

 

On the flip side, they were almost certainly civilians, and that is, in my mind, pretty much war crime territory.

20 minutes ago, Mutoh said:

I think that while Sisko did get the results, he more or less could've jeopardized the federation a lot more with his actions than somebody like a Picard or even a Janeway (or Kirk) would. Take your In the Pale Moonlight example. If it wasn't for Garak taking things into his own hand and assassinating that senator, Sisko would've been in huge trouble for what was more or less deception to incite a war between two parties that Starfleet already was having issues with. He also IMO was quite an emotional guy and acted on them often. That isn't something that I really look for in a commander. To me I think commanding isn't just about being the best Tactician on the battlefield either. 

Sisko can definitely be emotional, but so can Kirk and Janeway too (Picard, less so. He's very rational). But in a large scale fleet situation, I'd want Sisko in command every single time.

[486DX Win3.1]

  Each can hold their own in a fist fight, and each could easily hold their own in a brawl in some dimly lit spaceport bar.

I think both of them can pull tons of women, rich, powerful, interesting women can be romanced by both. I tend to kind of like Han's style, just effortlessly wooing a serious republic diplomat/heiress/princess. Of course Kirk has been known to seduce and lay down female rulers of entire planets too. That's kind of a tough choice in that regard.

 

[Drak3]

On 3/15/2019 at 10:30 AM, dalekphalm said:

Which, officially the Federation does.

Given that the Federation shows alot of signs of Nazi style Fascism, I wouldn't take much solice in them considering anyone terrorists.

[dalekphalm]

3 hours ago, Drak3 said:

Given that the Federation shows alot of signs of Nazi style Fascism, I wouldn't take much solice in them considering anyone terrorists.

Indeed, the Federation does display plenty of traits that we would consider worrisome if they happened in modern society.

 

Utopia comes with fine print - since it's impossible to have a Utopian society while humans are still humans.

 

Never the less, we know the Maquis consider themselves freedom fighters, and we also know that there are plenty of high-up Star Fleet officials that support them quietly.

[486DX Win3.1]

On 3/12/2019 at 11:58 AM, Sauron said:

Han Solo pilots a small ship with one other crew member. Kirk is in charge of a massive battle cruiser with hundreds of personnel on board. Draw your own conclusions.

I would hardly consider any variants of the Enterprise to be a "battle cruiser." The Federation, by design of the entire organisation, it too deceptive and sneaky to just go out there and send "battle cruisers" on all of these so called diplomatic missions. So, yeah. But remember, it's not like the question was all about "what is the better overall setup?," as you couldn't really compare two universes that don't even share the same laws of physics. The question is one about your own soul. This is about looking inward about who do you think you could hitch your cart to, who would you think you could be more easily inclined to follow; oh yeah, it's also about who is less of a big space p#ss#.

 

[486DX Win3.1]

[486DX Win3.1]

 WORST CAPTAIN EVER????

[Sauron]

7 hours ago, 486DX Win3.1 said:

I would hardly consider any variants of the Enterprise to be a "battle cruiser." The Federation, by design of the entire organisation, it too deceptive and sneaky to just go out there and send "battle cruisers" on all of these so called diplomatic missions.

The Enterprise in TOS was one of the largest and most heavily armed vessels in the Federation. The reason it was sent on an exploration mission was that 1) it could be considered able to defend itself from most known threats and 2) it allowed for vast amounts of resources and personnel on board and could travel for months or even years without visiting a friendly outpost. Some of their enemies actually point it out in some episodes, trying to discredit Kirk because he came to a negotiation with a massive battleship.

[dalekphalm]

8 hours ago, 486DX Win3.1 said:

I would hardly consider any variants of the Enterprise to be a "battle cruiser." The Federation, by design of the entire organisation, it too deceptive and sneaky to just go out there and send "battle cruisers" on all of these so called diplomatic missions. So, yeah. But remember, it's not like the question was all about "what is the better overall setup?," as you couldn't really compare two universes that don't even share the same laws of physics. The question is one about your own soul. This is about looking inward about who do you think you could hitch your cart to, who would you think you could be more easily inclined to follow; oh yeah, it's also about who is less of a big space p#ss#.

 

Yeah as @Sauron points out, in the TOS era, the Constitution Class starship is a "Class 1 Heavy Cruiser", and is one of the most powerful and well armed Federation vessels ever built at that point in history.

 

The Federation don't call it a Battlecruiser. And by Star Wars' measurements, it wouldn't be one (Battlecruisers are basically the step in between a standard ISD class Star Destroyer, and a Dreadnaught (Super Star Destroyer, such as the Executor Class). But in-universe, Constitutions could give even Klingon warships a run for their money.

22 minutes ago, Sauron said:

The Enterprise in TOS was one of the largest and most heavily armed vessels in the Federation. The reason it was sent on an exploration mission was that 1) it could be considered able to defend itself from most known threats and 2) it allowed for vast amounts of resources and personnel on board and could travel for months or even years without visiting a friendly outpost. Some of their enemies actually point it out in some episodes, trying to discredit Kirk because he came to a negotiation with a massive battleship.

Agreed.

 

With that in mind, we can't use the ships they primarily pilot against them, since at times, Solo was in charge of entire Battle groups during the Galactic Civil War. If we look at Legends, he's commanded ISD's and MC-80 Liberty Cruisers before.

[MarbleHornets]

A bit off topic, but this conversation reminds me of my much younger days watching Star Wars vs Star Trek space battles via the Empire at War engine or in Sins of Solar Empire.Those were the days

[dalekphalm]

Just now, MarbleHornets said:

A bit off topic, but this conversation reminds me of my much younger days watching Star Wars vs Star Trek space battles via the Empire at War engine or in Sins of Solar Empire.Those were the days

Do you remember all the CGI rendered short movies that fans used to make, where it would be a massive space battle between different franchises?

[MarbleHornets]

Just now, dalekphalm said:

Do you remember all the CGI rendered short movies that fans used to make, where it would be a massive space battle between different franchises?

Oh hell yes, anything space related was never spared, Star Wars, Star Trek, Stargate (so many stars..), Halo, Battlestar Galactica, Mass Effect, hell even the occasional TARDIS would show up too. And defiantly some we're defiantly better than others...