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WD Announces First 64-Layer 512Gb TLC NAND Die Amidst Toshiba Turmoil

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12 hours ago, Notional said:

64 layers of 512Gbit dies or 512Gbit in total per stack?

Per stack, but a stack is as thin as a CPU die. It's likely the dies can themselves be stacked just like on Samsung's 1TB BGA package.


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10 minutes ago, Darth Revan said:

So SanDisk was using Nand flash from Toshiba in their SSDs?

I ask because honestly I don't know. I thought they made them, not bought them from Toshiba and rebranding them as their own.

Yes.


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9 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Yes.

So that includes their memory cards?

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12 minutes ago, Darth Revan said:

So that includes their memory cards?

Yes.


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Well with Toshiba in the gutters WD/Sandisk might just buy that entire extra 20% stake so it wouldn't really matter much soon anymore if if they were using their Nand and memory at that point 

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9 hours ago, leadeater said:

On the face of it correct yes, as you shrink it gets more fragile but that's assuming nothing is done about it. The write endurance on the same sized Samsung 3D TLC SSDs has only ever gone up and they are so confident in the reliability of them they give it a 10 year warranty. (1)

 

Also as the capacity of SSDs increase the increase in write endurance isn't proportional, it's actually much better.

 

Planar TLC is the only TLC you should worry about for write endurance.

 

If the Techreport SSD endurance test (2) was run again on current SSDs we would be seeing SSDs die well in to the PB mark, Samsung themselves had an engineering sample with 8PB writes with no errors reporting.

1) Samsung gives 10 years only on 3D MLC products, not TLC.  Actually, only on one line AFAIK (850 PRO) and M.2 drives all have 5 years or less. That's probably because 850 PROs use the first versions of Samsung 3D MLC which was on a very large equivalent lithography (something like 40nm). The TBW numbers aren't really growing much and they are just a very rough indicator of "guaranteed" endurance; they've been actually introduced to limit the warranty in case of heavy use and thus favour the company, not the consumer.

 

2) That test needs to be redone with more recent drives IMHO, since TLC drives diffusion has skyrocketed, 3D NAND has been introduced and the cell size has shrinked a lot

 

 


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4 minutes ago, Agost said:

1) Samsung gives 10 years only on 3D MLC products, not TLC.  Actually, only on one line AFAIK (850 PRO) and M.2 drives all have 5 years or less. That's probably because 850 PROs use the first versions of Samsung 3D MLC which was on a very large equivalent lithography (something like 40nm). The TBW numbers aren't really growing much and they are just a very rough indicator of "guaranteed" endurance; they've been actually introduced to limit the warranty in case of heavy use and thus favour the company, not the consumer.

 

2) That test needs to be redone with more recent drives IMHO, since TLC drives diffusion has skyrocketed, 3D NAND has been introduced and the cell size has shrinked a lot

 

 

I'm pretty sure Samsung is currently making 32/28nm NAND, so the shrink isn't THAT much.


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5 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

I'm pretty sure Samsung is currently making 32/28nm NAND, so the shrink isn't THAT much.

40 to 32/28 is a big gap

And in the second point I was referring to every manufacturer; 15nm NAND is very common.

I don't know what's the transistor size of Intel/Micron and Toshiba 3D NAND, but I read 15nm somewhere IIRC, which seems a bit too small. A very large portion of 3D NAND higher endurance came from larger lithography itself


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2 minutes ago, Agost said:

40 to 32/28 is a big gap

And in the second point I was referring to every manufacturer; 15nm NAND is very common.

I don't know what's the transistor size of Intel/Micron and Toshiba 3D NAND, but I read 15nm somewhere IIRC, which seems a bit too small. A very large portion of 3D NAND endurance came from larger lithography itself

We have 15nm DRAM, not NAND. NAND pukes on itself around 18nm last I heard.


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4 minutes ago, Agost said:

1) Samsung gives 10 years only on 3D MLC products, not TLC.  Actually, only on one line AFAIK (850 PRO) and M.2 drives all have 5 years or less. That's probably because 850 PROs use the first versions of Samsung 3D MLC which was on a very large equivalent lithography (something like 40nm). The TBW numbers aren't really growing much and they are just a very rough indicator of "guaranteed" endurance; they've been actually introduced to limit the warranty in case of heavy use and thus favour the company, not the consumer.

 

2) That test needs to be redone with more recent drives IMHO, since TLC drives diffusion has skyrocketed, 3D NAND has been introduced and the cell size has shrinked a lot

I may have forgotten the EVO has a lower warranty :P. Only have Pros so that's the number I remembered.

 

The nice thing about Samsung is almost every part is common between the consumer and enterprise products: DRAM, NAND, Some controllers (fewer now) etc. Main difference between their consumer and enterprise in the SATA space is power loss protection, CRC/ECO and higher internal over provisioning. Their enterprise SAS products have different controllers but well, of course those do.

 

The endurance testing one is a little hard, you'd need to test at least 100 of the same SSD each so there's cost plus the extreme length of time required to run the test.

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2 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

We have 15nm DRAM, not NAND. NAND pukes on itself around 18nm last I heard.

Almost one year ago:

http://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/ap-en/company/news/news-topics/2016/02/storage-20160223-1.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/micron-16nm-nand-tlc-ssd,29288.html

The manufacturers are calling these nodes 15/16nm, don't know how "really 15/16nm" are those gates (like 14/16nm FinFET from GloFo and TSMC)


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3 minutes ago, Agost said:

Almost one year ago:

http://toshiba.semicon-storage.com/ap-en/company/news/news-topics/2016/02/storage-20160223-1.html

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/micron-16nm-nand-tlc-ssd,29288.html

The manufacturers are calling these nodes 15/16nm, don't know how "really 15/16nm" are those gates (like 14/16nm FinFET from GloFo and TSMC)

Which makes them 20nm really, but that's still old planar tech, so no surprise there.


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6 minutes ago, leadeater said:

I may have forgotten the EVO has a lower warranty :P. Only have Pros so that's the number I remembered.

 

The nice thing about Samsung is almost every part is common between the consumer and enterprise products: DRAM, NAND, Some controllers (fewer now) etc. Main difference between their consumer and enterprise in the SATA space is power loss protection, CRC/ECO and higher internal over provisioning. Their enterprise SAS products have different controllers but well, of course those do.

 

The endurance testing one is a little hard, you'd need to test at least 100 of the same SSD each so there's cost plus the extreme length of time required to run the test.

You just need an LSI card and 2 external enclosures :P

 

You can run 128 drives off of a 2-port MegaRaid card.


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5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

The endurance testing one is a little hard, you'd need to test at least 100 of the same SSD each so there's cost plus the extreme length of time required to run the test.

The first test only included 6 drives, of which only 2 were of the same model.

IMHO just 2 per model would be enough for a rough estimate of consumer SSDs.

I'd pick 2 or 3 common TLC drives, some 3D TLC ones and a couple of high end MLC ones


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1 minute ago, patrickjp93 said:

You just need an LSI card and 2 external enclosures :P

 

You can run 128 drives off of a 2-port MegaRaid card.

Yea but what reviewer is going to be able drop the cash on 100 SSDs for each brand, and they won't get that many for free either from all of them.

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3 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

Which makes them 20nm really, but that's still old planar tech, so no surprise there.

Still pretty small, I'd never buy a "15nm" planar TLC drive.


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38 minutes ago, leadeater said:

Yea but what reviewer is going to be able drop the cash on 100 SSDs for each brand, and they won't get that many for free either from all of them.

@LinusTech...


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2 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

He won't, 100 SSD for each brand is not enough for him, unless they're 2TB+ each


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2 minutes ago, Agost said:

He won't, 100 SSD for each brand is not enough for him, unless they're 2TB+ each

Instead of the Storinator, it'll be "THE CACHINATOR SPEED DEMON XL!!!"

 

Also, he'll get the 4TB versions TYVM...


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Just now, patrickjp93 said:

Instead of the Storinator, it'll be "THE CACHINATOR SPEED DEMON XL!!!"

Isn't that the 24 NVMe server he just built (badly)?

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Isn't that the 24 NVMe server he just built (badly)?

This would be even faster, use the best networking, believe me.

 

Also... XL!!!

 

You can get 4TB SATA SSDs now, so half a Petabyte of high-speed storage is cache vs. the 1PB of SATA HDDs for big storage...


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3 minutes ago, patrickjp93 said:

This would be even faster, use the best networking, believe me.

Dual 4x HDR Infiniband for 400G connectivity because Linus.

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1 minute ago, leadeater said:

Dual 4x HDR Infiniband for 400G connectivity because Linus.

GTFO, Dual Omnipath HD 4x for 1T connectivity.


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6 hours ago, patrickjp93 said:

GTFO, Dual Omnipath HD 4x for 1T connectivity.

Only seen Omnipath in 100G speeds so far using QSFP28, not actually used it though. Infiniband does have 12x HDR which is 600G per connection. Omnipath does have far lower latency though so it'll probably perform better in real life vs paper.

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