Switch my OS to raided hard drives?

[_Grid21]

I've just recently reinstalled my PC, and being I did a RAID1 on my last set up, I really have come to understand the real power of RAID 1 when your starting over because I've been able to recover every bit of data from my old install to my new one which has saved my butt, game data for Space Engineers and plugins for FL Studio. I am seriously considering switching from AHCI to RAID 1 on my Asus ROG Strix X470-F. But I've already installed Windows 10. How do I change my AHCI mode to Raid 1 and do it in such a way where windows 10 won't crash on boot? I know I could switch to an SSD but as I understood SSDs don't do well for Raid 1 because of their wear leveling process.

 

So here's my question, 1 could I do a Raid 1 from ACHI, and 2. can SSDs handle a Raid 1 if you only check and verify your raid once a month? Or once every 2 months? 

[Electronics Wizardy]

Why do you want a raid 1? Id just setup backups, that would be much better to keep your data safe, raid won't protect you data from many things.

 

SSDS work fine for raid, the trim really isn't need, but with the much lower failure rates I don't see the point of raid on a destop, just get good backups.

[_Grid21]

7 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Why do you want a raid 1? Id just setup backups, that would be much better to keep your data safe, raid won't protect you data from many things.

 

SSDS work fine for raid, the trim really isn't need, but with the much lower failure rates I don't see the point of raid on a destop, just get good backups.

True, but in a Raid 1, if 1 drive fails and you replace it, it'll copy and you have something to fall back on.

[Electronics Wizardy]

1 hour ago, _Grid21 said:

True, but in a Raid 1, if 1 drive fails and you replace it, it'll copy and you have something to fall back on.

And you can easily restore a backup if a drive fails. RAID doesn't help if you have corruption, user error, randsomware, or other issues that are often more likely.

[Willowwizard]

28 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

And you can easily restore a backup if a drive fails. RAID doesn't help if you have corruption, user error, randsomware, or other issues that are often more likely.

I have to agree with this. RAID 1 only protects against physical hardware failure. Regular backups can protect you from hardware failure, accidentally deleted files, power failure, etc. It's greatly more versatile than RAID 1; which is generally used for reliability reasons, e.g. server setups so they can quickly recover from a drive failure (but even then, generally they use RAID 1, and an additional backup)

[Lady Fitzgerald]

4 hours ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

...SSDS work fine for raid, the trim really isn't need, but with the much lower failure rates I don't see the point of raid on a destop, just get good backups.

Actually, TRIM is needed. The lack of TRIM in RAID was an issue in Win 7. I agree that properly done backups are far superior to RAID for protecting data but there is nothing wrong with using a RAID on a desktop to ensure continuous operation as long as proper backups are still used (yes, even a RAID needs to be backed up).

 

2 hours ago, TakataruMC said:

I have to agree with this. RAID 1 only protects against physical hardware failure. Regular backups can protect you from hardware failure, accidentally deleted files, power failure, etc. It's greatly more versatile than RAID 1; which is generally used for reliability reasons, e.g. server setups so they can quickly recover from a drive failure (but even then, generally they use RAID 1, and an additional backup)

One can recover from a drive failure using a backup far faster than rebuilding a RAID. Home servers with only a couple of drives may use RAID 1 but better home servers use higher forms of RAID and commercial server farms are moving away from RAID in favor of less clunky and more reliable forms of redundancy, mostly because of the time required to rebuild a RAID with today's much larger HDDs.

 

You are absolutely correct that backups are superior to RAID for protecting data.

[Electronics Wizardy]

5 hours ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Actually, TRIM is needed.

Trim isn't needed at all, the drives will work fine without it they have their own overprovision space built in, and this really is only a issue under heavy write uses, which is very uncommon on a desktop, and you should just get enterprise drives for this.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

58 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

Trim isn't needed at all, the drives will work fine without it they have their own overprovision space built in, and this really is only a issue under heavy write uses, which is very uncommon on a desktop, and you should just get enterprise drives for this.

You obviously do not know what TRIM and overprovisioning are and why they needed. Overprovisioning is used by TRIM but it doesn't replace it. Without TRIM, an SSD will start slowing down and will wear itself out faster. See this:

 

 

Also, https://www.digitalcitizen.life/simple-questions-what-trim-ssds-why-it-useful

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, Lady Fitzgerald said:

You obviously do not know what TRIM and overprovisioning are and why they needed. Overprovisioning is used by TRIM but it doesn't replace it. Without TRIM, an SSD will start slowing down and will wear itself out faster. See this:

I do. Trim just increases the overprovising space available to the drive. Under most low write desktop uses, it really isn't needed, and new ssds have the endurance so that it won't ever be a issue. This was a much bigger issues with old ssds that had worse endurance and can't move data around as fast. 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

I do. Trim just increases the overprovising space available to the drive. Under most low write desktop uses, it really isn't needed, and new ssds have the endurance so that it won't ever be a issue. This was a much bigger issues with old ssds that had worse endurance and can't move data around as fast. 

Not even close. Watch the darned video and read the article, for crying out loud.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Not even close. Watch the darned video and read the article, for crying out loud.

I know what trim is. Trim give more extra space for the drive to move data around in. It really isn't need as the drive already has a good amount, and new drives have the endurance.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 minute ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

I know what trim is. Trim give more extra space for the drive to move data around in. It really isn't need as the drive already has a good amount, and new drives have the endurance.

No, you don't know what it is. You are describi g overprovisioning. They are NOT the same. Watch the damned video. 

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, Lady Fitzgerald said:

No, you don't know what it is. Watch the damned video. 

I have watched it. That video is way to simple, and made a long time ago, and drives have gotten much better. 

 

Drives already have overprovisioning, so trim isn't need to use a drive, and lots of systems have drives with out trim(like with encryption) and the speed is fine.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Just now, Electronics Wizardy said:

I have watched it. That video is way to simple, and made a long time ago, and drives have gotten much better. 

 

Drives already have overprovisioning, so trim isn't need to use a drive, and lots of systems have drives with out trim(like with encryption) and the speed is fine.

I'm amazed that someone otherwise so intelligent can't grasp this.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Just now, Lady Fitzgerald said:

I'm amazed that someone otherwise so intelligent can't grasp this.

Because its not as simple as you need trim to use a drive and not having trim will make performance bad. Lots of things have changed since that video came out and the article was made. I have many systems with ssds and no trim(encryption) and they perform fine as there is plenty of over-provisioned space in the drive.

 

Yea you should use trim if you can, but if you can't for a reason(raid, encryption) its fine for the drive and won't kill peformance under most uses(and if your doing very heavy writes get a drive made for that)

[Lady Fitzgerald]

13 minutes ago, Electronics Wizardy said:

I have watched it. That video is way to simple, and made a long time ago, and drives have gotten much better. 

 

Drives already have overprovisioning, so trim isn't need to use a drive, and lots of systems have drives with out trim(like with encryption) and the speed is fine.

Again, overprovisioning and TRIM are NOT the same nor do they serve the same functions. To oversimplify it, TRIM reduces the number of writes needed by Garbage Collection. For a more complicated explanation (sice you distain simple ones), check out this article.

 

http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-news/latest-buzz/garbage-collection-and-trim-in-ssds-explained-an-ssd-primer/

[SSD Sean]

26 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Again, overprovisioning and TRIM are NOT the same nor do they serve the same functions. To oversimplify it, TRIM reduces the number of writes needed by Garbage Collection. For a more complicated explanation (sice you distain simple ones), check out this article.

 

http://www.thessdreview.com/daily-news/latest-buzz/garbage-collection-and-trim-in-ssds-explained-an-ssd-primer/

You can only preach the truth to those willing to hear it lol. 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

Hey Sean! Welcome to LTT!

 

Everyone, SSD Sean, aka Sean Webster, has forgotten more about drives, especially SSDs, than the rest of us are likely ever to know. He works with them for a living. He was the resident drive guru on OCN (which has become a shadow of itself since the first of the year when Vertical Scope bought it and did a horribly botched migration from Huddler to vBulletin that still hasn't been fixed). We are fortunate to have him and another refugee from OCN, Lord Xeb, another drive expert (especially with data recovery), joining our ranks.

[_Grid21]

So lets get back to my post, what is a good solid Back up software instead of using Raid? 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

2 hours ago, _Grid21 said:

So lets get back to my post, what is a good solid Back up software instead of using Raid? 

It depends how you have your System (OS and programs) files and your data arranged. To make backing up easier, the System files should be segregated from your data. Ideally, the System files should be on their own drive (the boot drive) or, in the case of a computer with only one drive, their own partitions (typically, the System Rserved and C:/ partitions). The data should be on their its own drive(s) or, in the case of a computer with only drive, its own partition. More on this in a moment.

 

For data to be reasonably safe, it needs to exist in three different places. For most people, this means on the computer, on an onsite backup drive, and on an offsite backup drive. For a drive to be a backup drive, it must be kept powered down, disconnected from the computer, and stored away from the computer except while updating the backups.

 

If the System files are segregated from the data files, imaging software is the best for backing up the System files. An image is roughly the equivalent of a photo negative. It is a "snapshot" of the drive or partition being imaged at tthe time the image was made. Like a photo negative, an image is used to recreate the drive or partition ass it was at the time the image was made. Images need to be stored on a backup drive.

 

I recommend Macrium Reflect Free for imaging.

 

While imaging is necessary for backing up System files, it is too slow and consumes too much drive space for backing up data files. For data, folder/file syncing is far faster (after the initial backup) and far more efficient. A folder/file syncing program, when set to Mirror Mode, works by comparing the source drive (the drive in the computer being the source drive) with the destination drive (the backup drive). It will then copy any new or changed files on the source drive that are on the destination drive to the destination drive. Any files on the destination drive that are not on the source drive will then be deleted from the destination drive. the result is essentially a clone of the source drive on the destination drive. Since only new or changed data is involved (after the initial backup), updating the backup can take very little time.

 

Another feature folder/file syncing programs haave is called Versioning. When enabled (which I strongly recommend), Version will send any files deleted from the destination drive to a user designated folder or drive. This protects you from losing data due to accidental deletion or file corruption.

 

I recommend FreeFileSync for folder/file syncing.

[_Grid21]

21 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

It depends how you have your System (OS and programs) files and your data arranged. To make backing up easier, the System files should be segregated from your data. Ideally, the System files should be on their own drive (the boot drive) or, in the case of a computer with only one drive, their own partitions (typically, the System Rserved and C:/ partitions). The data should be on their its own drive(s) or, in the case of a computer with only drive, its own partition. More on this in a moment.

 

For data to be reasonably safe, it needs to exist in three different places. For most people, this means on the computer, on an onsite backup drive, and on an offsite backup drive. For a drive to be a backup drive, it must be kept powered down, disconnected from the computer, and stored away from the computer except while updating the backups.

 

If the System files are segregated from the data files, imaging software is the best for backing up the System files. An image is roughly the equivalent of a photo negative. It is a "snapshot" of the drive or partition being imaged at tthe time the image was made. Like a photo negative, an image is used to recreate the drive or partition ass it was at the time the image was made. Images need to be stored on a backup drive.

 

I recommend Macrium Reflect Free for imaging.

 

While imaging is necessary for backing up System files, it is too slow and consumes too much drive space for backing up data files. For data, folder/file syncing is far faster (after the initial backup) and far more efficient. A folder/file syncing program, when set to Mirror Mode, works by comparing the source drive (the drive in the computer being the source drive) with the destination drive (the backup drive). It will then copy any new or changed files on the source drive that are on the destination drive to the destination drive. Any files on the destination drive that are not on the source drive will then be deleted from the destination drive. the result is essentially a clone of the source drive on the destination drive. Since only new or changed data is involved (after the initial backup), updating the backup can take very little time.

 

Another feature folder/file syncing programs haave is called Versioning. When enabled (which I strongly recommend), Version will send any files deleted from the destination drive to a user designated folder or drive. This protects you from losing data due to accidental deletion or file corruption.

 

I recommend FreeFileSync for folder/file syncing.

This was some great information! Now can I use Macrium Reflect for cloning my C:/ drive to be moved to an SSD? My roadmap for my computer involved cloning my C:/ Drive to be moved an SSD when I had money for a 1TB Samsung 860 Evo or something like that.

[Lady Fitzgerald]

24 minutes ago, _Grid21 said:

This was some great information! Now can I use Macrium Reflect for cloning my C:/ drive to be moved to an SSD? My roadmap for my computer involved cloning my C:/ Drive to be moved an SSD when I had money for a 1TB Samsung 860 Evo or something like that.

Yes. Macrium Refelct is excellent for cloning. I use it for that everytime I need to duplicate a drive or, back when I still used HDDs, upgrade an HDD to an SSD.

[_Grid21]

2 minutes ago, Lady Fitzgerald said:

Yes. Macrium Refelct is excellent for cloning. I use it for that everytime I need to duplicate a drive or, back when I still used HDDs, upgrade an HDD to an SSD.

One of my other friends mentioned this software. https://www.acronis.com/en-us/personal/computer-backup/ What are your thoughts on this vs the aforementioned software? 

[Lady Fitzgerald]

1 minute ago, _Grid21 said:

One of my other friends mentioned this software. https://www.acronis.com/en-us/personal/computer-backup/ What are your thoughts on this vs the aforementioned software? 

My one experience with it was it wan't as easy to use and it couldn't handle cloning more than two or three partitions. Besides, why pay for a program when there is a free one that does just as well, if not better.

[SSD Sean]

I use acronis true image a lot. I like it. I’ve not had any issues yet in the past 6 years of using it. It seems easy enough for me.  Acronis true image HD is free if you have WD, intel, crucial, Adata drives too. I think others offer it too, but these are off the top of my head.

 

Personally, I like it better than macrium reflect because it doesn’t change the partition size/location unless you specifically tell it to and it keeps the partitions exactly as they were on the old drive by default, macrium and others change the sector boundaries and adjust some partition sizes as it wants...which I don’t like.