cooling Using Peltier In radiator

[abiriqbal]

I watched some video of peltier directly cooling that can not be good because of the extreme condensation. Why not use peltier in radiator instead. Usual CPU have cooler have TDP above 150W where Peltier have only 92W in usual size. That low temp occurs due to poor heat distribution. I wonder what would happen if peltier plate is used as radiator. Like a reservoir with a peltier in it.

[Electronics Wizardy]

Well you have the condensation problem if you run the cpu under ambient, not matter where the cooler is. A small peliter has been tried in many cooler, and normally doesn't help much and your just wating power.

 

 

The problem with peltier units is that there very inefficent. If you want to run your system subambient, get a compressor based system. It uses much less power and cools much better.

[Enderman]

That's not how a peltier works.

You cannot just stick it inside something and have the reservoir get colder.

One side of the peltier cools down while the other side heats up.

[W-L]

1 minute ago, abiriqbal said:

I watched some video of peltier directly cooling that can not be good because of the extreme condensation. Why not use peltier in radiator instead. Usual CPU have cooler have TDP above 150W where Peltier have only 92W in usual size. That low temp occurs due to poor heat distribution. I wonder what would happen if peltier plate is used as radiator. Like a reservoir with a peltier in it.

Welcome to the Forums!

 

Well you can do a hot side and cold side loop, peliter (TEC) units require heavy cooling on the hot side to be able to stay cool and operating optimally. They are however extremely inefficient and if one wants to do cooling that is sub ambient it will require double it not more in terms of wattage of the CPU TDP to be able to do so. 

[Neo-revo]

Radiators and Peltiers dont mix well.. the Radiator trys to make the water be ambient temp, and a peltier acts as a heat pump pulling 'warm' out of the water and  pumping it out the hot side (along with all the energy required to run the peltier)

 

as stated. they are cool (pun intended) but are not very efficient. and  adding a peltier into a closed loop with a radiator would be counterproductive,  to Both the water being chilled and the Air 'cooling' the water in the radiator.

 

you'd either be chilling water to push into a radiator to raise it back to ambient, Or  the Peltier wouldn't work well if the Heat load is too great for the Unit to Heatpump the excess energy out.

 

 Peltiers are awesome cool technology. but with little Practical application in terms of energy input and output results

[Tam3n]

For better results, you would probably need to build a two stage cooling system. Cold stage would be a subambient cpu/gpu cooling loop, that would be cooled by a lot of peltier elements. The ambient stage would be a cooling loop with normal radiators, that would cool the peltiers hot side. The first loop would need to have a lot of peltier elements, so that they can operate semi efficiently at high delta T and remove a lot of heat + the surface area needed. How to construct the "peltier element heat exchanger" between the loops practically and efficiently would be one of the trickiest parts.

[abiriqbal]

15 minutes ago, Tam3n said:

For better results, you would probably need to build a two stage cooling system. Cold stage would be a subambient cpu/gpu cooling loop, that would be cooled by a lot of peltier elements. The ambient stage would be a cooling loop with normal radiators, that would cool the peltiers hot side. The first loop would need to have a lot of peltier elements, so that they can operate semi efficiently at high delta T and remove a lot of heat + the surface area needed. How to construct the "peltier element heat exchanger" between the loops practically and efficiently would be one of the trickiest parts.

I was thinking something like that. I can be fitted in distribution plate on the and Hot side have to be out side of the main component area. I have a air cooled desk PC. I am thinking fitting a paltier at the bottom of the compoent self having cold side radiator behind the intake fan. Hot side rad will be under the desk.

[VanBantam]

So where I've seen peltier coolers effectively used is in x-ray ccd camera applications.  The ccd chip-package has a peltier cooler attached to it and then a cooling block attached to the peltier cooler.  We used a recirculating chiller, like the kind made by VWR or ThermoFisher, to cool the peltier cooler.  The cooler was able to get the chip down to -20 C within about 10 minutes, which isn't bad.  I personally set the chiller to no less than 4 degrees C.  The device integrator, i.e. the camera manufacturer, were the ones who were responsible for mounting the chip on one of their boards and provide cooling elements needed to cool the ccd chip.

 

So what does this mean for you?  You'll need to get your peltier cooler, thermal couple, cooling block, some sort of industrial control system (like a plc or an arduino), power supply, and a recirculating water chiller (or something similar) to cool the peltier cooler.  Your feedback loop will be based on your thermal couple placement and your throughput variable will be the current being sourced to the peltier cooler.  You'll want to throttle the current to the peltier cooler so as to prevent condensation and dropping the temperature too much when cpu isn't under load.

 

So yeah a lot of broad strokes here but it'll give you a little bit more of an idea as what's involved.

[Enderman]

17 hours ago, abiriqbal said:

I was thinking something like that. I can be fitted in distribution plate on the and Hot side have to be out side of the main component area. I have a air cooled desk PC. I am thinking fitting a paltier at the bottom of the compoent self having cold side radiator behind the intake fan. Hot side rad will be under the desk.

1) peltiers are so inefficient it will be using more power than your PC, at least 500-1000W

 

2) why would you put a radiator in order to cool another radiator, that's just a waste of resources and efficiency when you can make it the same loop.

 

3) the reason people put the peltier directly on the CPU is because that way you don't have to deal with condensation all over the tubing and other watercooling components, only around the CPU area. Not having the peltier there will just make the condensation problem worse.

 

4) peltiers can't cool a CPU enough under load, you'll be wasting hundreds of watts and tons of money for a few degrees improvement. This is why nobody uses peltiers for computer cooling anymore.

 

5) Peltiers will fail after a short time under those extreme loads, when it fails it becomes an insulator and will make your CPU instantly overheat.

[Neo-revo]

3 hours ago, Enderman said:

1) peltiers are so inefficient it will be using more power than your PC, at least 500-1000W

 

2) why would you put a radiator in order to cool another radiator, that's just a waste of resources and efficiency when you can make it the same loop.

 

3) the reason people put the peltier directly on the CPU is because that way you don't have to deal with condensation all over the tubing and other watercooling components, only around the CPU area. Not having the peltier there will just make the condensation problem worse.

 

4) peltiers can't cool a CPU enough under load, you'll be wasting hundreds of watts and tons of money for a few degrees improvement. This is why nobody uses peltiers for computer cooling anymore.

 

5) Peltiers will fail after a short time under those extreme loads, when it fails it becomes an insulator and will make your CPU instantly overheat.

yes, i have a separate peltier setup that i built after 4 times of research before i even started to plan/order things,  and  even before i got the first things i ordered i changed/modified my ideas for application and ordered other things.

 

From my own personal experience  and studying the weird 3 info-set  linear graph  with two input/out results at 25 and 50C    

 

i learned lots of other things too, like  how a 12710 TEC1 means that its a single stage, with 127 P/N couples with an max amp rating of 10.   

 

the graphs showed the temp diff of the hot/cold plate and  the amperage that would require to achieve that. Meaning that not only are they inefficient that  the efficiency can be altered by running them at alternate voltage/amperage's.   Then have to consider the how to hot to keep the hot side, since as it get hotter the resitance increase's meaning more power to continue stable performance.  When i got my Peltiers and AC/DC switching PSU i began to mettle with things,

the Pure copper 550gr 1u server heatsinks that i acquired cheaply with their 4mm thick base didn't work as well as i though they would, i mean they worked fine, but i have old air cooling heatsinks Zalman ones that were boss when i still air cooled, and  put the hot side on one of those, (rated for 190w tdp back int he day i think) and  got some sub zero reading within seconds,   and in a 21c room i got a copper nb heatsink to sit at -16.7c and  froze a thermometer with a wet napkin and it read -23.7c  i was running them  at 12v  on the 40a switching  with fans on a controller with slider knobs and also on the psu. 

 

on the 1u heatsink allowing the base to get hot got the cold side really cold, and  on the zalman  runing the fan at max with a fan in front and behind as well got frost forming in the first 2 seconds on a exposed coldside,

 

recently while my system was down i jerry rigged my cpu cooler and the cpu WB together with long screws and got  water at 25c to ambient (21c) and then  after a few hours (no heat load)  got a single 12710 at 12v to hold water in the loop at 13.7c.   At this point i was running a single vario d5 at 1,  even puttign it on 2 made the water probe register scaling up.   im not sure if the 36W at max would even have an effect, im not sure what amp/volts it runs on 1 any how ( volt-meter broken atm) and  can only think that  circulating it faster in the uninstalled 'mock' loop that it was jsut trying to keep everything cold  (res/pumps/tubes/fitting and etc)   sitting in the room at 21c.

 

Just a little actual  results to consider.    and yes,  if i even wanted to chill just my CPU on a separate loop i would need 3 12710 all working together to get a  decent cold water,    i might even need more  since heat load and rated wattage are two separate things. A 100w peltier doesn't chill 100W, its the  recommended running wattage.   The actual heatpumping value will vary on a lot of specific variables that are going to be specific to every setup.