Do I need an amp?

[BinaryJava]

Also do I need realtek audio drivers, I am just using the drivers that windows installs. I have a pair of HD598 with a schiit modi 2 uber with rca to 3.5mm cable, it is connected to my pc via digital optical. My headphones are already loud enough at 35 so would I need an amp?

[Oshino Shinobu]

If they're loud enough already, then you don't need an amp to make them louder.

 

It's generally best to install the latest drivers from your motherboard's webpage, but if it's already working, then it's not essential. The ones that Windows installed may already be the latest ones. 

 

EDIT: Not even sure if the digital output uses the audio drivers to be honest. 

[Daniel1]

You don't really need an amp for the Sennheiser HD 598.

[an actual squirrel]

You really should be using a headphone amp to make sure you have a good damping factor as well as the correct frequency response. When you connect directly to a dac like you are doing, you will have high bass distortion, as well as too much bass.

[BinaryJava]

21 minutes ago, an actual squirrel said:

You really should be using a headphone amp to make sure you have a good damping factor as well as the correct frequency response. When you connect directly to a dac like you are doing, you will have high bass distortion, as well as too much bass.

Really, I found the opposite, the treble is very sharp, very noticeable with the ak sound from cs go

[GamerDude]

If your headphone gets loud enough for your taste, then I honestly don't see the need for an amp. I'm curious though, why did you get the Modi 2 Uber? What's so good about the Modi 2 Uber as a DAC that you'd chosen it over the onboard DAC? 

[BinaryJava]

1 minute ago, GamerDude said:

If your headphone gets loud enough for your taste, then I honestly don't see the need for an amp. I'm curious though, why did you get the Modi 2 Uber? What's so good about the Modi 2 Uber as a DAC that you'd chosen it over the onboard DAC? 

I heard good things about it for increasing quality of sound, I do plan on getting HD 6xx down the line which I assume I need an amp for. Does an amp only increase the volume of headphones, I thought it further enhances the output.

[GamerDude]

12 minutes ago, BinaryJava said:

I heard good things about it for increasing quality of sound, I do plan on getting HD 6xx down the line which I assume I need an amp for. Does an amp only increase the volume of headphones, I thought it further enhances the output.

Yes, with a HD6XX, you'd do better with an amp as the can scales well with better audio gear. As for DAC stack/combo or amp affecting sound, not really. Some DAC give you a warmer sound signature, others, may be more clinical and so forth. They don't really enhance the sound, but if they do, it'd be marginal at best. Now, if you mean enhance the bass of the can, then no, not really......if you want more bass, get a bass heavy can (like the Monoprice Retro according to some here) or fiddle with the equalizer setting. I've played around with different DAC stacks and combo's, the biggest difference I can hear among the various setups is with different headphones. That is, the headphones made the biggest difference in sound, using the same headphone among the different setups result in subtle difference (which can be better appreciated with better headphones). 

[BinaryJava]

For my setup, my dac makes a noticeable difference to the sound which really surprised me since I don't hear any static or distortion through my motherboard. Whether it makes £150 of difference is another story.

[GamerDude]

12 minutes ago, BinaryJava said:

For my setup, my dac makes a noticeable difference to the sound which really surprised me since I don't hear any static or distortion through my motherboard. Whether it makes £150 of difference is another story.

I'm surprised, I've always thought that modern mobos have pretty spiffy audio.....though I've not used any of my mobos' audio for a couple of years now at the very least. Maybe the mobo onboard audio is crappy, or the Modi 2 Uber THAT good. I suppose with better external gear, you remove any sort of interference that may gimp the sound, and with better audio gear, you may hear greater clarity in sound.With my Oppo HA-1, I get a clinical and more neutral sound than, say, when I use my iFi Micro iDSD BL (mildly warmer, NOT warm per se when compared to the HA-1). It has never occurred to me to test them against the onboard audio of my mobos.....

[an actual squirrel]

When people ask headphone amp questions, they are usually asking about replacing an internal amp with an external one, not literally not having an amp and trying to power headphones with a line out.

 

According to the schiit website, the modi 2 has a 75 ohm output impedance. Output impedance for amps is a similar concept to load line calibration in overclocking - a high output impedance means there can be a big voltage drop with changing load. Sennheiser headphones usually have a resonance at ~100hz where the load is different. This effectively creates a situation where you have a bass boost at 100hz. I did the math, and it's a noticeable 6db boost.

 

On top of that frequency response problem, you also lose electrical damping, which makes the drivers more uncontrolled, which means there is more distortion, especially on an open back headphone where you can't rely on air in the cup to provide stability.

[spwath]

Yes you need an amp if you have a dac.

[GamerDude]

I thought he had digital signal from his mobo go into the Modi 2 Uber via SPDIF/optical, and from the Modi to his mobo via 2x RCA to 3.5mm minijack into the 'Line in' on his mobo so he can use the amp section of his mobo, or this isn't how it works? Anyway, with his present can, and assuming I'm right, there's no need for an external amp like the Magni 3. But, should he get the HD6XX, then most definitely get an external amp.

[Ahoy Hoy]

4 minutes ago, GamerDude said:

I thought he had digital signal from his mobo go into the Modi 2 Uber via SPDIF/optical, and from the Modi to his mobo via 2x RCA to 3.5mm minijack into the 'Line in' on his mobo so he can use the amp section of his mobo, or this isn't how it works? Anyway, with his present can, and assuming I'm right, there's no need for an external amp like the Magni 3. But, should he get the HD6XX, then most definitely get an external amp.

it would be converted back to digital then back to analogue after going back into the computer. Which is just stupid having so many conversions when you could have just one.

[BinaryJava]

1 hour ago, GamerDude said:

I thought he had digital signal from his mobo go into the Modi 2 Uber via SPDIF/optical, and from the Modi to his mobo via 2x RCA to 3.5mm minijack into the 'Line in' on his mobo so he can use the amp section of his mobo, or this isn't how it works? Anyway, with his present can, and assuming I'm right, there's no need for an external amp like the Magni 3. But, should he get the HD6XX, then most definitely get an external amp.

My headphones plug into my dac with rca to 3.5mm and my dac is plugged in with optical. Not using amp on mobo

[GamerDude]

2 minutes ago, BinaryJava said:

My headphones plug into my dac with rca to 3.5mm and my dac is plugged in with optical. Not using amp on mobo

Ah, I see, so I was mistaken then. In this case, I would highly recommend you get an amp then, more power when you need it and the voluime control knob comes in handy. I suspect you're using Windows audio control panel for volume setting......really damn inconvenient!

[Dackzy]

Get a amp asap. You have a extremely high output impedance with just the modi, which isn't a good thing, it can and will change the sound. The overall sound is a lot more distorted than it would be if you actually did the right thing and used a amp.

 

Why did you think that it was a good idea to get a DAC and run line out to headphones? Didn't you do any research at all? Or at least wonder why there wasn't a 3.5 or 6.35mm out?

[BinaryJava]

2 minutes ago, Dackzy said:

Get a amp asap. You have a extremely high output impedance with just the modi, which isn't a good thing, it can and will change the sound. The overall sound is a lot more distorted than it would be if you actually did the right thing and used a amp.

 

Why did you think that it was a good idea to get a DAC and run line out to headphones? Didn't you do any research at all? Or at least wonder why there wasn't a 3.5 or 6.35mm out?

The plan was to get both the dac and the amp, but the amp is not in stock yet so I came on here to see if it makes a difference.

[Dackzy]

Just now, BinaryJava said:

The plan was to get both the dac and the amp, but the amp is not in stock yet so I came on here to see if it makes a difference.

there is a reason why basically everyone sees a DAC as just a brick without a amp, it isn't meant to power headphones and you might end up damaging the headphone and the sound will be getting from a line out vs a amp is a lot worse in basically every way. More distortion, because no damping and the extremely high output impedance, pumps in the frequency response that weren't meant to be there because of high output impedance and overall a more "uncontrolled" (for lack of a better word) sound.

[Max_Settings]

Don't ever drive headphones off a DAC output, that is very bad for the DAC as they are not meat to drive headphones.

[BinaryJava]

On 6/3/2018 at 4:27 PM, Dackzy said:

there is a reason why basically everyone sees a DAC as just a brick without a amp, it isn't meant to power headphones and you might end up damaging the headphone and the sound will be getting from a line out vs a amp is a lot worse in basically every way. More distortion, because no damping and the extremely high output impedance, pumps in the frequency response that weren't meant to be there because of high output impedance and overall a more "uncontrolled" (for lack of a better word) sound.

Is this a big issue for my headphones specifically, I see other people just use dacs for their headphones all the time.

[Dackzy]

1 minute ago, BinaryJava said:

Is this a big issue for my headphones specifically, I see other people just use dacs for their headphones all the time.

it is a problem for all headphones, also if there is a 3.5mm out then there most likely is a amp in it, since there are combo units with both DAC and amps.

[Peskanova]

3 minutes ago, BinaryJava said:

Is this a big issue for my headphones specifically, I see other people just use dacs for their headphones all the time.

Well dacs? or dac+amp?

[BinaryJava]

On 6/3/2018 at 4:27 PM, Dackzy said:

there is a reason why basically everyone sees a DAC as just a brick without a amp, it isn't meant to power headphones and you might end up damaging the headphone and the sound will be getting from a line out vs a amp is a lot worse in basically every way. More distortion, because no damping and the extremely high output impedance, pumps in the frequency response that weren't meant to be there because of high output impedance and overall a more "uncontrolled" (for lack of a better word) sound.

I didn't see anything online about not using a dac to drive headphones, I assumed rca was only on the back because they assume people will be using an amp.

 

[Dackzy]

2 hours ago, BinaryJava said:

I didn't see anything online about not using a dac to drive headphones, I assumed rca was only on the back because they assume people will be using an amp.

in that post the guy has powered speakers, which means that they have a build in amp and the headphones are wireless which means that they also has a build in amp.

 

OPs setup in that thread is DAC->speakers with build in amp-> wireless station for the headphones and not DAC->wired headphones.