New coder needs some help

[iHDCool]

Hello guys. I'd like to keep it short. I want to learn a new language. I'm 16, I don't know much, a little bit of python 2 (just a little bit), a little bit of HTML/CSS. Some friends suggested VB.net for me and some others suggested C#. 

Can you give me your suggestions on what language would it be best to start first, some arguments would be appreciated on why that language that you suggested and why not another one. Also what's the best method of learning that you suggest? Youtube? Thanks in advance. 

[King_of_Oz]

C++ is really hard but gives you a very good understanding of how computers work.

 

JavaScript is widely used and has a huge selection of resources.

 

Python (3) is really easy and used mostly in the video/3D spectrum of the universe.

 

codecademy.com

[iHDCool]

Codeacademy is good but as you can see, I'm 16, so something that's free would be appreciated thanks 

[Armakar]

c# use visual studio free version

[Mxion]

Codeacademy is free for it's courses, the Pro package only offers additional practice with quizzes and projects. Khan Academy also offers some programming courses in HTML/CSS. There's also various channels and videos on YouTube that can also help you get started with programming! 

[Nuluvius]

1 hour ago, iHDCool said:

Some friends suggested VB.net for me...

I would not suggest VB as a starting language. It is only relevant in current industry for legacy support work and is not considered to be a candidate for new projects.

1 hour ago, iHDCool said:

...and some others suggested C#.

Out of those two options, C# is the clear winner. It's a popular and pragmatic multi paradigm high level programming language which is currently in wide demand. Indeed it is the successor to VB.

1 hour ago, King_of_Oz said:

C++ is really hard but gives you a very good understanding of how computers work.

This is arguably less true these days since the advent of C++ 11 followed by 14 and 17 as there's been significant development of the language to bridge the gap and combat these misconceptions.

1 hour ago, King_of_Oz said:

Python (3) is really easy and used mostly in the video/3D spectrum of the universe.

No... It's really not exclusive to that 'spectrum of the universe'... whatever that means 

58 minutes ago, iHDCool said:

Codeacademy

36 minutes ago, Mxion said:

Codeacademy

There's no 'a' in that, see: Codecademy

58 minutes ago, iHDCool said:

Codeacademy is good...

Good in the sense that you'll probably get fair comprehension of basic syntax and flow control from it... and that's about where it ends.

51 minutes ago, Armakar said:

c# use visual studio free version

That would be Visual Studio Community.

36 minutes ago, Mxion said:

programming courses in HTML/CSS

HTML and CSS are not Programming Languages, they are Markup Languages.

1 hour ago, iHDCool said:

Can you give me your suggestions on what language would it be best to start first, some arguments would be appreciated on why that language that you suggested and why not another one.

I think that a far better suggestion may be for you to think about exactly what it is that you want to do: What do you want from this, what do you find interesting the most and where would you like to endup? Answering questions such as these may provide us with a better idea of what would be more appropriate for you, rather than overwhelming you with random suggestions.

1 hour ago, iHDCool said:

Also what's the best method of learning that you suggest? Youtube?

Again this is probably the sort of question that is better suited for self reflection. It completely depends on what methodology of learning that you find that you respond to the best. What works well for me may not work well or even at all for you...

[iHDCool]

19 minutes ago, Nuluvius said:

I would not suggest VB as a starting language. It is only relevant in current industry for legacy support work and is not considered to be a candidate for new projects.

Out of those two options, C# is the clear winner. It's a popular and pragmatic multi paradigm high level programming language which is currently in wide demand. Indeed it is the successor to VB.

This is arguably less true these days since the advent of C++ 11 followed by 14 and 17 as there's been significant development of the language to bridge the gap and combat these misconceptions.

No... It's really not exclusive to that 'spectrum of the universe'... whatever that means 

There's no 'a' in that, see: Codecademy

Good in the sense that you'll probably get fair comprehension of basic syntax and flow control from it... and thats about where it ends.

That would be Visual Studio Community.

HTML and CSS are not Programming Languages, they are Markup Languages.

I think that a far better suggestion may be for you to think about exactly what it is that you want to do. What do you want from this, what do you find interesting the most and where would you like to endup? Answering questions such as these may provide us with a better idea of what would be more appropriate for you, rather than overwhelming you with random suggestions.

Again this is probably the sort of question that is better suited for self reflection. It completely depends on what methodology of learning that you find that you respond to the best. What works well for me may not work well or even at all for you...

First, thank you for the detailed answer. Now, I really want to get into software engineering in the not so distant future. Hell, I've even thought on being a white-hat although that's a little bit more network related I guess.... I haven't really made up my mind yet as I'm keeping my options open if you know what I mean. (Excuse me for the grammar mistakes, been a long day) On the learning method, I started learning Python with a free course at learnpythonthehardway.com, it was quite good and something like that would be ideal I guess but youtube could do the trick too. 

So what would you recommand for a newbie coder who wants to learn as much as he can on programming that can be useful for software engi or being a cybersecurity engi? 

Any ideas would be appreciated.

@Nuluvius

[LtStaffel]

1 hour ago, King_of_Oz said:

Python (3) is really easy and used mostly in the video/3D spectrum of the universe.

 

Python was introduced to me as an "easy to learn language that's good for beginners." That is true. But it is good for everyone for the same reasons it is good for beginners. It is easy to pick up (as far as programming goes), it is fast, it's interpreted (stupid compilers), it has packages/modules for everything (import module_that_does_all_the_work_for_me), absolutely everything I have done in programming has been easier to do in Python than anything else (maybe that's because I'm not a software engineer). Regardless, it is used by professionals for many things, especially in cybersecurity where "get the job done now, I don't care how" is the name of the game. My point is, Python is used for MUCH more than video/3D stuff. In fact, I'd say that video/3D is likely to be GPU stuff which is inherently biased towards C/C++, not high level languages.

[LtStaffel]

18 minutes ago, Nuluvius said:

There's no 'a' in that, see: Codecademy

"Codeacademy" <-- the fastest way to annoy Nuluvius

[LtStaffel]

24 minutes ago, iHDCool said:

Hell, I've even thought on being a white-hat although that's a little bit more network related I guess....

I am going to assume that by white-hat you mean ethically good offensive security (ethical hacking). If that is the case, then you are relatively wrong in the assumption that it is more networking than programming. Yes, you need to know TCP/IP and HTTP to start at least, but it way more about the programming. To write exploits, you need to know ASM, C, Python, PHP, SQL, HTML, JavaScript, or others. You need to know how things work in order to break them, and networking is not what came first with computers. Programming is what makes networks. Programs read, process, and send the data that goes over the networks. If you exclude programming from networking, all you're left with is a bunch of cables and hardware.

If you misused white-hat and meant the defensive side of security, then it is a completely diff---just kidding, it's the exact same thing only with different methods for testing the programs and networks.

30 minutes ago, iHDCool said:

So what would you recommand for a newbie coder who wants to learn as much as he can on programming that can be useful for software engi or being a cybersecurity engi?

I don't think it is safe to call the majority of cybersecurity personnel "engineers," as they are often less focused on building and more focused on either strengthening or breaking things. Regardless, I would recommend you prioritize C and Python, for a few reasons.

• C is a semi-low-level language that exposes you to some of the workings of a computer on a lower level than Python will. It is also absolutely essential to understand even the basic exploits and types of vulnerabilities (buffer overflows as an example).
• Python is a high level scripting language that you would use constantly. It's great for pretty much everything: automation, networking, exploits (yes, you can write exploits in Python), etc.

I know a tiny bit of PHP, SQL, JS, HTML, and other web languages (Nuluvius, I know HTML isn't a programming language) but I am not of the opinion that you need to know them fully. You will understand programming concepts from C and Python, and then you will only need to understand how input is processed in those web languages to be able to find vulnerabilities in applications. Security is all about input, if you can input into something, that is the attack surface.

[iHDCool]

2 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

I am going to assume that by white-hat you mean ethically good offensive security (ethical hacking). If that is the case, then you are relatively wrong in the assumption that it is more networking than programming. Yes, you need to know TCP/IP and HTTP to start at least, but it way more about the programming. To write exploits, you need to know ASM, C, Python, PHP, SQL, HTML, JavaScript, or others. You need to know how things work in order to break them, and networking is not what came first with computers. Programming is what makes networks. Programs read, process, and send the data that goes over the networks. If you exclude programming from networking, all you're left with is a bunch of cables and hardware.

If you misused white-hat and meant the defensive side of security, then it is a completely diff---just kidding, it's the exact same thing only with different methods for testing the programs and networks.

I don't think it is safe to call the majority of cybersecurity personnel "engineers," as they are often less focused on building and more focused on either strengthening or breaking things. Regardless, I would recommend you prioritize C and Python, for a few reasons.

• C is a semi-low-level language that exposes you to some of the workings of a computer on a lower level than Python will. It is also absolutely essential to understand even the basic exploits and types of vulnerabilities (buffer overflows as an example).
• Python is a high level scripting language that you would use constantly. It's great for pretty much everything: automation, networking, exploits (yes, you can write exploits in Python), etc.

I know a tiny bit of PHP, SQL, JS, HTML, and other web languages (Nuluvius, I know HTML isn't a programming language) but I am not of the opinion that you need to know them fully. You will understand programming concepts from C and Python, and then you will only need to understand how input is processed in those web languages to be able to find vulnerabilities in applications. Security is all about input, if you can input into something, that is the attack surface.

Nodded. I'll start with C# and work my way up I guess, installing Visual Studio atm. You're not gonna let Nuluvius correct you on anything are ya  

[King_of_Oz]

48 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

 

Python was introduced to me as an "easy to learn language that's good for beginners." That is true. But it is good for everyone for the same reasons it is good for beginners. It is easy to pick up (as far as programming goes), it is fast, it's interpreted (stupid compilers), it has packages/modules for everything (import module_that_does_all_the_work_for_me), absolutely everything I have done in programming has been easier to do in Python than anything else (maybe that's because I'm not a software engineer). Regardless, it is used by professionals for many things, especially in cybersecurity where "get the job done now, I don't care how" is the name of the game. My point is, Python is used for MUCH more than video/3D stuff. In fact, I'd say that video/3D is likely to be GPU stuff which is inherently biased towards C/C++, not high level languages.

But, I mean... blender is in only or mostly Python. Not C#, etc..

[LtStaffel]

30 minutes ago, King_of_Oz said:

But, I mean... blender is in only or mostly Python. Not C#, etc..

Okay yes, Blender is Python. But that is just one 3D program out of all the video and 3D world you mentioned. My point was not that it wasn't used in video or 3D, but that it is by no means primarily video and 3D.

[Guest]

I just saw a book in Barnes and Noble a few days ago about teaching ethical hacking with python. 

If you have a bookstore near you, check it out. I couldn't find it on the website. (Or didn't recognize it if I saw it.)

 

I second the call for C or C++. Though you won't get a super understanding of how computers handle data until you take a class learning about transistors, and electronics' fundamentals. Though I think 80~+% of programming related jobs don't need you to understand how computers are working with binary information. 

[vorticalbox]

 

8 hours ago, LtStaffel said:

absolutely everything I have done in programming has been easier to do in Python than anything else (maybe that's because I'm not a software engineer).

not limit to you. Yesterday I was tasked with stress testing an API end point, used python and was about 40 limes of code and was async. Python is awesome 

[Dat Guy]

On 3.4.2017 at 3:56 PM, Dat Guy said:

Woo-hoo, my favorite topic!

 

Here's a number of (unsorted) recommendations for a beginner:

 

1. Start with Common Lisp!

 

Pros: Common Lisp, being a very mature language (first standardized in the 1980s), is quite unlikely to get major API breakages anytime soon, i.e. you won't have to adapt new language features every few years. It is basically an "executable lambda calculus", so it includes a lot of the shiny lambda and closure features other languages are still missing. The REPL allows you to gradually extend code which is currently running (i.e. modify your applications while using them). There are great and free books for it, e.g. Practical Common Lisp and Wikibooks. Paul Graham said that learning and using Lisp will make you a better programmer.

 

Similar to Python, Perl and other popular languages, there is a shitload of libraries you can just include and use. The language ecosystem is, despite of its age, alive and kicking. SLIME is probably the world's greatest IDE for any language. Performance-wise, certain Lisp implementations can even be faster than C. Code examples: See rosettacode.org.

 

Cons: Due to Lisp's unique approach, it will be hard for you to adapt any Lisp knowledge to non-Lisp languages. Don't worry, there are a lot of other Lisp languages, e.g. Clojure and Scheme. You can even script certain GNU applications like Emacs and The GIMP in a Lisp language. C-like languages are an entirely different thing though.

 

2. Start with Perl 5!

 

Pros: Perl 5 is an ubiquitous language, it is a part of the standard distribution of quite some operating systems so there is a good chance that you can start right away. Its legendary CPAN directory includes modules for quite anything. Perl inherits some of its specialties from shell scripts, so if you have ever used the shell of a Unix-like system, you might feel right at home. Perl 5 is also rather mature, currently being in its 24th release and still being maintained, so it is unlikely that you'll ever have to change your working code. As Perl is a pure scripting language (there is no official way to create a binary application with it), all it takes to modify your code is a text editor. There is no REPL though.

 

There is, of course, a good Wikibook for learning Perl. I've taught someone the basics of Perl within one week, so it is easy to adapt without any previous programming knowledge. Code examples are available on rosettacode.org again. As Perl uses certain constructs from C-like languages, you can even learn C, C++ etc. with your Perl knowledge later; also, PHP was initially based on Perl, so if you're interested in PHP, learning Perl might help you here.

 

Cons: Some people say that Perl's syntax reminds them of a swearing Donald Duck. Yes, there are a lot of symbols (@#$...) in a Perl script, helping you to understand what a certain variable is (array, hash, string, ...) and what it is not. - With Perl 6 (very) slowly replacing Perl 5, the advantage of having a very consistent package ecosystem may fade over the next decade.

 

3. Start with C!

 

Pros: C is everywhere. If your computer has an operating system, it (most likely) also has a C compiler, even on niche systems like RISC OS and Plan 9. Due to this fact, C has a library for anything, it can even be a great choice for web applications. As C's language core is often called a portable assembler, C code is usually translated to very efficient machine code, making your code do exactly what you expect it to without too much fiddling from your compiler or linker.

 

Cons: The learning curve of C is actually a vertical line. Seriously, C is not your friendly beginner's language, it basically punishes you for even the smallest mistakes. This could as well be a positive aspect though, you will learn to avoid sloppy coding. If you are afraid to jump into cold water, you might start with C++ instead, C++'s current revision C++17 is rather beginner-friendly and (almost) every valid C program is also a valid C++ program, so you are able to slowly turn your C++ code into C code while you learn the differences.

 

Concerning Python: Please don't use Python. It is a horrible language, teaching you a horrible coding style.

 

[iHDCool]

2 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

Concerning Python: Please don't use Python. It is a horrible language, teaching you a horrible coding style.

Ehm... why would you say that? I studied a little bit of Python 2, it seemed like a good language to master. 

[Dat Guy]

Being "a good language to master" is not even closely being "a good language". Python is easy, that's about everything that's positive with it.

[LtStaffel]

52 minutes ago, Dat Guy said:

Being "a good language to master" is not even closely being "a good language". Python is easy, that's about everything that's positive with it.

Python is often considered the successor to Perl. While Perl has to "chomp" variables and semicolons are mandatory, Python has as many (if not more) modules and gets the job done. In Python, I don't have to use sockets for HTTP, I can use requests. If Perl is really so much better, then why is Python more popular? Perl may be good to know, but Python is the obvious scripting language to use for more projects than Perl is. Because Python can do everything Perl can and more, and it is easier, does that not make it an obvious choice over Perl?

Side note: Snakes are cooler than camels.

[Dat Guy]

2 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

Python is often considered the successor to Perl.

 

That would be a valid statement if Perl was dead, but it is not. How can something that is still alive have a "successor"? The lack of brackets and semicolons would make it a largely broken successor anyway.

 

2 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

While Perl has to "chomp" variables and semicolons are mandatory, Python has as many (if not more) modules and gets the job done.

 

So does every other (non-esoteric) language I can imagine. The number of modules is debatable though.

 

2 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

If Perl is really so much better, then why is Python more popular?

 

If Linux is really so much better, then why is Windows more popular?

 

I repeat: Python is easy, probably easier than Perl. That does not imply that it is any better.

 

2 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

Python is the obvious scripting language to use for more projects than Perl is.

 

Shell scripting is the obvious scripting language. There is no reason to prefer Python for that. But that was probably not what the OP wanted to know.

 

2 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

Because Python can do everything Perl can and more

 

Python can't do brackets. 1:0 for Perl.

 

2 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

and it is easier, does that not make it an obvious choice over Perl?

 

No, because: no brackets.

 

2 minutes ago, LtStaffel said:

Side note: Snakes are cooler than camels.

 

I disagree. Snakes are poisonous. I wouldn't want to deal with poisonous animals if I could deal with a camel instead.

[Cruorzy]

It is funny but at the same time kind of annoying to see every topic about this and then turning in to a debate between people, when i'm not mixed in it it will be someone else telling the other person which language is the best and the fastest most efficient or the best to step into because there are jobs in it.

 

Let's keep it real and i guess we can all find that this is the best answer to give.

15 hours ago, Nuluvius said:

I think that a far better suggestion may be for you to think about exactly what it is that you want to do: What do you want from this, what do you find interesting the most and where would you like to endup? Answering questions such as these may provide us with a better idea of what would be more appropriate for you, rather than overwhelming you with random suggestions.

@iHDCool A programming/coding language is a tool that gets picked for the job, the same how to pick a brush when you paint. Making choices between languages can only be done when you have enough experience to see the benefits and lacks of one.

 

What you have to learn now is the basics of coding/programming, become a script kiddie like everyone else did and work your way up from there.

 

Safely set pick a category,

Software development - Make applications that can run on a OS

Web development - Make functional websites

App development - Make mobile apps.

and you got a few more of them.

 

Then try to make something you benefit from, that is what I experienced is a great start.

Care about making it secure, care about the language u are using and the faults and benefits it brings with it.

 

But do not prioritize to learn the language, learn the mindset of a programmer en then it will be easier to switch languages anytime you need.

 

You don't have to start with the BEST language, since there will be nobody agreeing here on 1 language that is the best of all.

 

Kind regards,

a script kiddie.

 

PS : Every language mentioned here will do just fine, pick a easy language to start with but do not stick with it!

[iHDCool]

Script kiddie..? I don't see how that's related here.... 

I wanted to copy-paste the google definition of script kiddie

"a person who uses existing computer scripts or codes to hack into computers, lacking the expertise to write their own." 

So @Cruorzy you're saying that I should copy other people's code, change some little things, put it all together and try to learn from that? How can you make an application for OS, a web page if you don't know the basics of each language that you want to use. I agree on the fact that nobody will agree that 1 language is the best of all, but I'm guessing that if you learn the languages, one by one, it's better. But hey, I'm just a newbie, and that's just my opinion. 

[Mira Yurizaki]

If you're new to programming in general, it doesn't really matter what language you use to learn with. Most popular languages use the same basic principals that carry over when you want to start learning some other languages.

 

However if you have a specific application in mind that you want to program for, it is more beneficial to use a language that the application is likely to use. e.g., you probably shouldn't be starting with C if you want to do web development and likewise, you probably shouldn't be starting with JavaScript if you want to get into system applications.

[LtStaffel]

7 hours ago, Dat Guy said:

That would be a valid statement if Perl was dead, but it is not. How can something that is still alive have a "successor"? The lack of brackets and semicolons would make it a largely broken successor anyway.

 

So does every other (non-esoteric) language I can imagine. The number of modules is debatable though.

 

If Linux is really so much better, then why is Windows more popular?

 

I repeat: Python is easy, probably easier than Perl. That does not imply that it is any better.

 

Shell scripting is the obvious scripting language. There is no reason to prefer Python for that. But that was probably not what the OP wanted to know.

 

Python can't do brackets. 1:0 for Perl.

 

No, because: no brackets.

 

I disagree. Snakes are poisonous. I wouldn't want to deal with poisonous animals if I could deal with a camel instead.

I like what @Cruorzy said.

However, it is arguable both that things can have successors while still being alive and that the lack of brackets and semicolons is not a bug, it is a feature of Python. What good are brackets and semicolons if I am not going to do a massive, unreadable one-liner?. It is also arguable that if A is equal in every respect to B except for being easier to use, then A is better than the B; because ease of use is part of what makes something good.

Really, learning Python or Perl would be perfectly acceptable for what OP wants to do. It is just my opinion, from experience in writing an IRC bot in Perl AND Python, that the Python implementation was significantly easier for me to finish and use.

[iHDCool]

So I was chatting with this software engi friend of mine, and he told me that he started coding by copying other people's code, breaking it down and understanding it and I guess eventually you learn those stuff and you can mix up different lines of code to make your program. I'm guessing thats what @Cruorzy meant? Is that a good way? 

Because I'm either starting with normal beginer tutorials in youtube that go over basic stuff such as decision making structures and repetitive structures or I find code and break it down to understand it.  Out of these two, what do you guys think it's the best way to learn? I'm still making up my mind.