Google admits it tracked user location data even when the setting was turned off

[Sniperfox47]

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

Again you're making these ridiculous "unless it specifies exactly in these words then you shouldn't make reasonable assumptions about what something does".

Again, there is nothing on the box my phone came in that indicates that it wasn't rigged with C4 that would detonate when I opened it, but it was a rational expectation that I could open the box safely. When I turn off positioning then I expect them to be off. That really shouldn't be some crazy and illogical idea to you.

Positioning is off. Your phone is not providing positioning data to the apps. That's not to say the app can't infer positioning data from other things. Should it block apps from seeing your IP address because they can use that to identify where you are (read as apps can't use the internet if positioning is off)? If you post a Mastadon post saying "Hey, I'm at the park! These swings are so much fun!" is that positioning data because it identifies where you are? Do you expect you turning off positioning to prevent you from posting that toot? Your idea of reasonable expectations are more than a little overboard.

 

And again if your phone has a warning on the box that says it may explode if turned on, do you still have this "reasonable expectation" that it won't explode (outside the context of consumer protection laws of course)? The privacy policy for Google Play Services explicitly states 'Yeah, we may infer your location.'

 

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

What are you talking about? This thread is about Android so of course I will talk about what is going on at Android. I care about what other companies does with their products too (just ask @mr moose what I think of Windows 10) but this thread is about Android. We can not keep making the excuse that "company X is doing it too!" because that leads nowhere. Other companies doing equally bad things does not mean we should ignore or deflect the issues brought up against (in this case) Android.

Wanna know how you keep the status quo? By constantly drawing attention away from high profile cases like these.

Every single "Microsoft are fucking their users over" thread we get a bunch of people saying "baww stop hating on Microsoft. Go hate on Google instead".

Now in this Google thread we see people going "baww stop hating on Google. Go hate on Microsoft instead".

Don't you see how this will lead nowhere if we constantly do what the apologists are suggesting?

And again, Windows 10 is a high profile case. There seems to be a lot of hubbub whenever a big company is collecting data, and yet there are innumerable smaller companies that track the same kind of information every day, and a lot of people make absolutely no effort to protest those, despite them not being particularly secret.

 

And again, I don't know what you do outside this site. For all I know you could be a researcher trying to find a way to securely obscure the ability for companies to use IP to identify location. For all I know you could be working on a way to poison location services and destroy the practice of data mining from within. I'm not saying this because I think you specifically are the issue in this thread; I don't know you. But there are a lot of people who do just this.

 

I'm not telling you to go hate on Microsoft, over in those threads I won't tell you to hate on Google, and I won't even tell you to hate on Apple despite my disdain for them, because hating on them is a pointless waste of energy.

 

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

By the way, the uproar has made a change. Google will be changing it in an update. This will hopefully also send a clear message to other companies who will try and do the same thing. Some will get away with it because they aren't as high profile, but at least one big player has changed their ways for the better (very slightly in the grand scheme).

How exactly has it made a change? The project end date did not change, it's still the end of November just like before this hubbub... Their plans literally did not change at all despite people making a fuss about it...

 

2 hours ago, LAwLz said:

I really don't get your logic here. It's because people use the systems every day that they complain and why this is so important. The more people use something the more important it is for them that it is actually good. The more you use something the more invested you should be.

Because we live in a capitalistic society wherein as a consumer you vote with your wallet? If you continue to buy and use hardware that infringes your privacy, with software that infringes your privacy, running on a chipset that infringes your privacy, what exactly does you whining about your privacy accomplish? They've still got your money. They've still come out ahead.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Yes I know that people don't read the ingredients list. That's why I made that example.

It is not "bad practices" to not read privacy policies and EULAs because doing so would require an extraordinary amount of time as well as knowledge most people simply don't have. The entire system is broken beyond belief. How horrible TOS are is a subject for another day.

I don't disagree with you here. My whole point is that if you drink a douche because you don't read the instructions that's on you. At some point the consumer is responsible for whether they're a dumbass, regardless of whether consumer protection laws are there or not.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

OK, what do you suggest? Clearly this outrage has made Google, which currently holds about 82% of the global smartphone market share to change their ways slightly. If you don't think changing the behavior of someone that holds 82% market share is a big deal then I would like to see what you suggest we pursue.

I think it would be worth grilling Google for this even if Android had 0.5% market share. Improving the product 0.5% of smartphone users use would be a small victory, but a victory nonetheless.

You can't expect to change an entire industry without ever confronting anyone who actively contributes to the issue.

Again, they changed literally nothing. And even if they had cancelled this project early, so what? There's still *MANY* projects from them that collect personal information, a lot of which can identify position. Google Home, Google Wifi, and Nest data analytics is a good example, but one of *MANY*. And even if they had entirely stopped data collection, that's still an incredibly short term solution even with how massive they are.

 

You can't expect to change an entire industry by paying whack-a-mole with all the big name easy target situations that come to light. Cut off one head and two will take it's place.

 

As long as data collection remains an Industry Standard practice Google would be pulled back to it eventually. Any company, no matter how good willed would be. Canonical. Mozilla. I could go on.

 

If you find a hydra, you don't cut off it's heads one at a time. You Finger of Death that abomination, and then Disintegrate it's corpse. You poison the weed through it's roots.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Terrible analogy, because people were not aware of it happening. It's more like someone sells you pain killers for your migraine, and you take them every day. Then one day you realize that the pain killers you have been eating contain meth and now you're addicted to meth. And before you go "people should have known", they clearly didn't and you can't expect people to know. Do you know every single ingredient in every single food you have eaten in the last year? No? Me neither. But I don't have to, because we have laws which makes sure the ingredients are not severely harmful to us. We have laws which means we don't have to spend several hours every week reading the ingredients list to make sure what we eat doesn't contain poison that would kill us. In the same way we need laws which makes sure we don't have to read TOS and privacy policies which could harm us.

If people weren't aware that Meth was bad for them, would you feel sorry for them, despite the news and the Dealer themselves telling them that Meth is harmful and super addictive? Despite them using Meth without having done *any* research on it?

 

There have been widely reported privacy issues with Google Play services, since before Google Play Services was Google Play Services. Your dealer, Google, has a webpage specifically set up to let you know just how badly they infringe on your privacy. The "people didn't know!" argument stands on thin ground. If you aren't paying for a product, it's because you are the product.

 

If your policy is "We should push political agencies to create stronger consumer protection laws with regards to electronic piracy" I would be all on board with that.

 

But I haven't seen anyone but you imply that so far, just "Eww! This company sucks! How could they do such a thing, that's super wrong!" That mentality draws absolutely no sympathy from me when people vote for them despite them having a policy that literally outlines that they do exactly that linked at every sign in screen and every device setup...

 

Just as uninformed voters shouldn't vote and make a broken electoral system into even more of a joke, uninformed shoppers should not be buying or using goods or services.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Not a label with a warning on it. I clearly wrote that they would put it in the ingredients list and on one page on their website (not a warning on the front page either, just somewhere on their website). Would you say someone who died from that would be a dumbass for not reading the ingredients list and realizing that CHEBI:17514 means cyanide? Yeah, what a dumbass. Totally deserves to die and Coca Cola did nothing wrong there.

You're right, you didn't say that. But Google has the label with the warning right there for you none the less. 

 

And they didn't obfuscate the name "Cyanide" but printed it clearly on the ingredients.

 

That you didn't read the ingredients before you tore open the box and devoured their product is their fault? What if you had an allergy to something in it? Is that also their fault? At some point regardless of consumer protection laws, you as a consumer need to take responsibility for your own wellbeing, especially in a capitalist system like ours entirely based on fucking everyone else around you as hard as you can.

 

Would I love an idealistic socialist utopia? Absolutely. But whining about how companies don't help us get there isn't going to help us get there.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Being a victim and being part of the problem are two different things.

Nice victim blaming though.

They are two different things. They are not mutually exclusive.

 

If a company steals your information, you're the victim. I feel bad for you.

 

If you give companies that steal your information money, thereby encouraging them and the industry they're part of to continue stealing information, you're part of the problem. I don't feel so bad any more.

 

If you are in a bar and you start hurling insults at a guy and he punches you, you're the victim of the assault. That sucks. But you're also the jackass who encouraged it.

 

1 hour ago, LAwLz said:

Are you serious? People are coming together. People are upset at Google for doing this and it has made Google change their mind. The one who isn't coming together is you, because you for some reason jump in and defend bad behavior while at the same time complaining that everyone else is part of the problem. You're the one who doesn't agree that this isn't OK. You're the one defending them and putting the blame on the users instead of the perpetrator.

People shouldn't have to work around issues when the companies can be held responsible and fix the core issues, just like Google is doing here by removing this in a future patch.

People are whining and complaining... What Google did is not illegal. I've seen absolutely no push for legal changes, just people saying "They can't do this!". And again, I never said this is okay. I thinks it's a dick move. But until people actually push to make any change, or start to move away from not just a company here and there but the industry in general this shit will continue to happen.

 

This is no different from the gaming industry or the western anime streaming industry and how inbred they've gotten. People talk about how bad the situation is and how they should fix it, but they don't usually move away from the services altogether, at most they move from one service to some other that's just as bad.

 

[EDIT]: Just a few examples of my point above:

"Oh hey, EA is screwing us with microtransactions! Let's boycott their game and go play stuff from Ubisoft and Activision instead! That will solve all our problems!"

"Oh no! Mozilla has used an activity tracking extension in Germany! We better switch to Chrome, Vivaldi, or Opera as those don't track our information at all!"

"How dare Microsoft collect user information! Good thing I'm on MacOS! At least everything's safe from prying eyes in iCloud!"

[LAwLz]

1 hour ago, Sniperfox47 said:

-snip-

I feel like there is no point talking to you because you are not arguing from a point of logic or reason.

I would however like for you to answer my question, what do you suggest we do instead of get upset at companies screwing us over?

You have already told everyone to stop complaining about horrible things Google does, but you have not suggested an alternative. No, vague bullshit like "poison the root" is not suggesting an alternative unless you describe how to do it in practice.

 

And no, voting with your wallet does not work because that relies on everyone being well informed which they aren't. The average user is quite frankly an idiot when it comes to technology. But that's to be expected because not everyone can be well informed about everything they encounter in life. That's why we have laws and regulations.

[MoonSpot]

Quote

An update that removes this cell tower data-collecting feature will roll out by the end of this month, according to Google.
 

 

Yea, but they're still going to keep tracking just to keep that leash up our asses.

 

Quote

“When you use Google services, we may collect and process information about your actual location” using “various technologies... including(but not limited to) IP address, GPS, and other sensors that may, for example, provide Google with information on nearby devices, Wi-Fi access points and cell tower.”

 

So one down, everything else to go.  I guess this is a win.

[Cookybiscuit]

If this is news to you, you're a moron.

[Sniperfox47]

12 minutes ago, LAwLz said:

I would however like for you to answer my question, what do you suggest we do instead of get upset at companies screwing us over?

You have already told everyone to stop complaining about horrible things Google does, but you have not suggested an alternative. No, vague bullshit like "poison the root" is not suggesting an alternative unless you describe how to do it in practice.

Violent revolution? jk jk

 

With the system as it currently stands, I would suggest exactly what I did in my last post. Petitioning and pushing government agencies and representatives for political reform on the matter.

 

Medium term steps would involve forming community lobbying groups to spread public awareness and actively encourage change on the matter. This would make voting more effective by bringing a larger percentage of the populace into the collective.

 

Ideally though, long term the change needs to be deeper, moving into the future we need to transition those community lobbies to push for deeper governmental and economic reform to fix the system, since as it is right now you're right. Voting with our wallet is not a real option. Even legitimately voting for representatives doesn't work in many places. 

 

We could also kill everyone who refuses to be an informed consumer. I half-joke, but honestly that would solve a lot of the issues with our economy. Not all of them, but many.

[LAwLz]

4 minutes ago, Sniperfox47 said:

Violent revolution? jk jk

 

With the system as it currently stands, I would suggest exactly what I did in my last post. Petitioning and pushing government agencies and representatives for political reform on the matter.

 

Medium term steps would involve forming community lobbying groups to spread public awareness and actively encourage change on the matter. This would make voting more effective by bringing a larger percentage of the populace into the collective.

 

Ideally though, long term the change needs to be deeper, moving into the future we need to transition those community lobbies to push for deeper governmental and economic reform to fix the system, since as it is right now you're right. Voting with our wallet is not a real option. Even legitimately voting for representatives doesn't work in many places. 

 

We could also kill everyone who refuses to be an informed consumer. I half-joke, but honestly that would solve a lot of the issues with our economy. Not all of them, but many.

I totally agree with you on that. I don't get why you are defending Google though.

Causing uproar against something you disagree with can't hurt your cause. At the very least it can spread awareness and, if successful enough, send a message to companies that people don't like those practices. Bad PR has made companies change their minds before, even when people were upset but didn't boycott their service.

[bcguru9384]

On ‎11‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 12:44 PM, DrMacintosh said:

Source: https://www.theverge.com/2017/11/21/16684818/google-location-tracking-cell-tower-data-android-os-firebase-privacy 

 

Apparently Google had been tracking user data and location even when you had location services turned off and didn't have a SIM card. They did apparently by aggregating cell tower data but you can take a look at it for yourself in the article. 

 

Google said they would be rolling out a patch soon to reverse this but it shouldn't have been a thing in the first place. 

what is it everyone is doing that their so afraid of someone knowing where they are?

drugs? all our politicians do greater quantities

kinky tinder things? politicians win again

i mean it is a sign of paranoia when we get jumpy about these stupid issues

if you do no crimes you have 0 to worry about with tracking

now these asshole companies selling my private data without my permission and not giving me a chunk of the money? ?? ?? ?? 

[DrMacintosh]

Just now, bcguru9384 said:

if you do no crimes you have 0 to worry about with tracking

And you already lost. 

[bcguru9384]

Just now, DrMacintosh said:

And you already lost. 

oh how???

[vanished]

Just now, bcguru9384 said:

oh how???

That's a terrible argument that's been countered in many ways.

 

[DrMacintosh]

1 minute ago, bcguru9384 said:

oh how???

Your argument is flawed. 

 

The "If you don't have anything to hide, don't worry about being searched" argument spits in the face of my country and what it was founded on. 

[bcguru9384]

1 minute ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

That's a terrible argument that's been countered in many ways.

 

did not say anything about encryptions as anyone really wanting true encryption writes their own cipher program

talking about phones being tracked when settings were off and no sim in phone(which does not mean phone is off network)

[Sniperfox47]

1 minute ago, LAwLz said:

I totally agree with you on that. I don't get why you are defending Google though.

Causing uproar against something you disagree with can't hurt your cause. At the very least it can spread awareness and, if successful enough, send a message to companies that people don't like those practices. Bad PR has made companies change their minds before, even when people were upset but didn't boycott their service.

Mayhaps I'm just a naive idealist who doesn't want my cause driven by drama and conflict.

 

I don't like the idea of getting people on board just by bringing them into an echo chamber of hatred towards a common enemy.

 

I'd much rather create a movement based on the positive ideals of what our future could be, than the hatred of what it is now.

 

I'm not stupid however. I do understand that, human nature being what it is, this kind of idealism doesn't actually work long term.

 

But it's also partly because I can't really blame Google for doing what they're doing. Or Microsoft or Amazon or Facebook or Apple doing what they're doing. They're not people. They're driven entirely by the self interest of their employees, and the idiocy of the masses. It's not really their fault that they're doing this, any more than it's a rifle's fault that it kills a person, it's our fault for letting them.

[bcguru9384]

3 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

Your argument is flawed. 

 

The "If you don't have anything to hide, don't worry about being searched" argument spits in the face of my country. 

your response is hollow

[vanished]

Just now, bcguru9384 said:

did not say anything about encryptions as anyone really wanting true encryption writes their own cipher program

talking about phones being tracked when settings were off and no sim in phone(which does not mean phone is off network)

The topic was the "if you don't do anything wrong you have nothing to hide" nonsense which that video does a good job of explaining

[DrMacintosh]

1 minute ago, bcguru9384 said:

your response is hollow

Well its founded upon a country that has existed for 218 years and is the world super power. 

 

I'm sure the Constitution of the U.S. is a hollow argument though. 

[bcguru9384]

Just now, Ryan_Vickers said:

The topic was the "if you don't do anything wrong you have nothing to hide" nonsense which that video does a good job of explaining

but i made that in response to the very first post on this thread

 

[vanished]

Just now, bcguru9384 said:

but i made that in response to the very first post on this thread

 

And?

[bcguru9384]

Just now, DrMacintosh said:

Well its founded upon a country that has exists for 218 years and is the world super power. 

 

I'm sure the Constitution of the U.S. is a hollow argument though. 

constitution is fine

we just have to many piss ant criminals in areas of power in my USA

but thats getting remedied

thank you mr. president

[DrMacintosh]

Just now, bcguru9384 said:

we just have to many piss ant criminals in areas of power in my USA

but thats getting remedied

thank you mr. president

Exactly how?

[bcguru9384]

1 minute ago, Ryan_Vickers said:

And?

theres no and you traveled off topic

and quite frankly are making I feel like you are picking a fight

and your staff

[DrMacintosh]

1 minute ago, bcguru9384 said:

theres no and you traveled off topic

and quite frankly are making I feel like you are picking a fight

and your staff

well you presenting an "argument" with no evidence or reasoning so unless you do that nobody will take you seriously. 

[vanished]

Just now, bcguru9384 said:

theres no and you traveled off topic

and quite frankly are making I feel like you are picking a fight

and your staff

No, just letting you know that " if you do no crimes you have 0 to worry about with tracking " is incredibly flawed

[bcguru9384]

Just now, Ryan_Vickers said:

No, just letting you know that " if you do no crimes you have 0 to worry about with tracking " is incredibly flawed

with not even 1 word why

you came and told i was wrong with not even an opinion to explain your point 

[bcguru9384]

3 minutes ago, DrMacintosh said:

well you presenting an "argument" with no evidence or reasoning so unless you do that nobody will take you seriously. 

i presented an opinionated statement that the 2 of you jumped on

shall i look back thru this thread and see where you have already participated as this is the shit i expect from lurick