wireless Difficult network setup, help please!!

[Cosmic Railgun]

Before reading here are some key situation points you need to know...

 

- I cannot run any network cables, they don't want that done (don't ask me why, they're the customer)

- All the walls are concrete!!!! This is what's making this such a difficult setup....

- Outlets are very limited, no extension cables may be run

- It's preferable to have 1 single network, but this is just a want not a need, the Dlink extender has already technically broken this

 

DIAGRAM: https://imgur.com/a/3VBun

 

Please look at my diagram, short red marks are outlets, gaps are doors, only the EA7500 location has a modem with internet access, no other rooms have Ethernet jacks, the indicated ranges are estimated by me from what I've experienced using an iPad 2017. Overall max download speed is 18mbps even through hard line

 

 

So I work as a full time technician at Staples and for the past few days I've been helping a local daycare get setup with a wireless network to enable their staff to have wireless access in some of their classrooms. Overall it sounds like an easy enough task, and that's what I thought. Initially I went and got them setup with a decent Asus router and 2 linksys RE7000 range extenders and then some "crap" DLink extender just to help edge out the coverage at the bottom end. However after a day they called back claiming that the linksys extenders weren't working, so I went and checked it out and sure enough, the extenders would grab the signal for about 5 minutes and then drop it, however that DLink was going strong (DLink is like $40 and the RE7000 are around $130 each). So I told them to bring the linksys extenders back and we'd refund them and help find an alternative. So they ended up getting an Linksys EA7500 Maxstream router which honestly does a pretty solid job of casting the signal, they also got another Asus router with the intent of having me set that one and the other Asus router they had purchased previously up as wireless bridges. All that went flawlessly, the Asus setup is super easy and grabbed right onto the Linksys router's signal and stayed strong, except they kept coming up with an error saying something like "Original Access Point has no internet connection" which is not true because the Linksys router definitely had a connection for the whole time. Please keep in mind that I ensured each device was initially setup in the same room to avoid any signal quality issues during setup. So tomorrow (November 3rd) the owner is coming back again to return the Asus routers and will be looking to get a solution (hopefully) actually works. I'm completely at a loss here, I was considering setting up a second Linksys Maxstream router (see diagram) and setting it to wireless bridge mode, do routers perform better than range extenders? And I don't want to see the same error again that the Asus ones gave, was that potentially because I was trying to use Asus routers bridged to a Linksys? It shouldn't be right? A router is a router, they worked when I hard wired them in the same room. Please give me some suggestions here and keep in mind that this is a daycare so we cant have cables running everywhere and mounting is not possible. I will try to answer as many questions as I can.

[Streetguru]

35 minutes ago, Olroy1234 said:

 

Power Line Ethernet to more routers?

Or just tell them to buy one single big ass router?

OR power line ethernet to like the middle ish, and one big ass router there?

[Windows7ge]

I'm thinking the signal is having issues being stable while passing through the concrete walls. Signal drops out for the repeaters which tells me that repeaters aren't a good option for the building. I'd say most concrete buildings (from my experience) are almost always hardwired. Since that's not an option my next best advice is look into Power Line from the router to each repeater.

 

If this won't work then someone is going to have to write a fat check out to a contractor who will install hardwire. Usually in concrete buildings they're installed inside metal conduit and bolted to the concrete walls with outlet boxes. Definitely not a 5 minute job, nor cheap.

[bcguru9384]

59 minutes ago, Olroy1234 said:

Before reading here are some key situation points you need to know...

 

- I cannot run any network cables, they don't want that done (don't ask me why, they're the customer)

- All the walls are concrete!!!! This is what's making this such a difficult setup....

- Outlets are very limited, no extension cables may be run

- It's preferable to have 1 single network, but this is just a want not a need, the Dlink extender has already technically broken this

 

DIAGRAM: https://imgur.com/a/3VBun

 

Please look at my diagram, short red marks are outlets, gaps are doors, only the EA7500 location has a modem with internet access, no other rooms have Ethernet jacks, the indicated ranges are estimated by me from what I've experienced using an iPad 2017. Overall max download speed is 18mbps even through hard line

 

 

So I work as a full time technician at Staples and for the past few days I've been helping a local daycare get setup with a wireless network to enable their staff to have wireless access in some of their classrooms. Overall it sounds like an easy enough task, and that's what I thought. Initially I went and got them setup with a decent Asus router and 2 linksys RE7000 range extenders and then some "crap" DLink extender just to help edge out the coverage at the bottom end. However after a day they called back claiming that the linksys extenders weren't working, so I went and checked it out and sure enough, the extenders would grab the signal for about 5 minutes and then drop it, however that DLink was going strong (DLink is like $40 and the RE7000 are around $130 each). So I told them to bring the linksys extenders back and we'd refund them and help find an alternative. So they ended up getting an Linksys EA7500 Maxstream router which honestly does a pretty solid job of casting the signal, they also got another Asus router with the intent of having me set that one and the other Asus router they had purchased previously up as wireless bridges. All that went flawlessly, the Asus setup is super easy and grabbed right onto the Linksys router's signal and stayed strong, except they kept coming up with an error saying something like "Original Access Point has no internet connection" which is not true because the Linksys router definitely had a connection for the whole time. Please keep in mind that I ensured each device was initially setup in the same room to avoid any signal quality issues during setup. So tomorrow (November 3rd) the owner is coming back again to return the Asus routers and will be looking to get a solution (hopefully) actually works. I'm completely at a loss here, I was considering setting up a second Linksys Maxstream router (see diagram) and setting it to wireless bridge mode, do routers perform better than range extenders? And I don't want to see the same error again that the Asus ones gave, was that potentially because I was trying to use Asus routers bridged to a Linksys? It shouldn't be right? A router is a router, they worked when I hard wired them in the same room. Please give me some suggestions here and keep in mind that this is a daycare so we cant have cables running everywhere and mounting is not possible. I will try to answer as many questions as I can.

subnetting and "proper" dhcp setup

 

[bcguru9384]

Just now, bcguru9384 said:

subnetting and "proper" dhcp setup

 

if i walk you through i want a percentage of the bill charged

[brwainer]

When you have more than one extender, sometimes the extenders may grab onto each other instead of the main router, even if the main router is closer. the logic for most devices in extender mode is a bit dumb. You may have better luck if you can set the devices up using WDS, which is like a very simple/dumb mesh protocol. Or use powerline networking with APs instead of extenders (the devices may be able to operate in AP mode, but make sure first, because we have seen plenty of wireless extenders that if connected to the network by both wireless and wired, create a loop.

[Cosmic Railgun]

2 hours ago, Streetguru said:

Power Line Ethernet to more routers?

Or just tell them to buy one single big ass router?

OR power line ethernet to like the middle ish, and one big ass router there?

Big ass router was one idea I had, but in the end anything over AC1900 is just adding my channels to the network rather than signal strength so the router they have now is pretty much as good as thats gonna get, we considered powerline ethernet, but without a schematic of the powerlines and knowing which circuits each room is on I wasn't sure if it would work, can the rooms be on different circuits but all be on the same panel for it to work?

[Cosmic Railgun]

2 hours ago, bcguru9384 said:

subnetting and "proper" dhcp setup

 

Is this why my idea with the Asus routers didn't work?

[Just.Oblivious]

The "no cable" part makes it borderline impossible to get this properly setup, I strongly suggest that you make them reconsider this. Running two or three cables is a non-issue with a standard commercial drop ceiling.

 

What you want to use in a setup like this are managed access points, not consumer routers and certainly not a string of mixed-brand range extenders.

 

If they're firm on the no-cable thing then the "best" option would be to setup a few Ubiquiti access points using their "wireless uplink" functionality. This is essentially the same as using range extenders, only slightly less crappy thanks to their better radio management and improved roaming. A proper site survey should give you an estimation of what they need, but based on the graphic I think it'll work fine with only two or three UAP-AC-Pro's.

 

Now something tells me that this organisation has the standard small business IT budget of $3.50 and a jar of change by Jane's desk. If having good wifi is important to them they would have hired a contractor to run the cables already. If that's the case then I don't think they'd be willing to pony up the cash for the Ubiquiti gear.

[brwainer]

5 hours ago, Olroy1234 said:

Big ass router was one idea I had, but in the end anything over AC1900 is just adding my channels to the network rather than signal strength so the router they have now is pretty much as good as thats gonna get, we considered powerline ethernet, but without a schematic of the powerlines and knowing which circuits each room is on I wasn't sure if it would work, can the rooms be on different circuits but all be on the same panel for it to work?

Powerline adaptors that are on the same phase will be able to see each other with a full connection. On an standard US two-phase breaker box, even rows are the one phase, and odd rows are the other phase. So normally all you have to do is confirm which breaker each outlet is on and the look at the phases. Also, HomePlug AV2 units are able to communicate over the ground wire in addition to the hot/neutral, so any outlets that share a common ground can communicate even if they are on different phases. If there is more than one breaker box, then you can’t rely on consistent communication between them, only between the circuits inside each box. The actual throughput you will get unfortunately can’t be determined before you try it out, because it is highly variable.

[AGrider]

This sounds like a great use case for Ubiquiti Unifi Access points. Ive been working this the hardware for a while in a multi branch library district and am finding their hardware to not only be decently priced, but the configuration options for mesh wifi and longer range aps are great. They also play well together in a dense environment. Id recommend their switches too. Routers just arent quite there yet, but will work fine for a simple natted internet connection, but will have issues with a large non natted MOE style edu network.

 

Im using a combination of their UAP-AC-PRO(~150.00 US) aps, and UAP-AP-IW(~99.00 US) which is a neat little ap that takes POE+ input power, powers an internal AC access point, passes power to one external port and provides a non powered data port, all of which can be on seperate vlans. Im powering the aps with a 250 watt poe+ switch. If there are already data lines run to the classrooms, you just pop one IW unit in per classroom. Teachers computer and another device get attached to the direct ports on the IWAP,  Then you can broadcast up to 4 ssids per ap. It really makes a scenario as described above really easy.

 

There are specialized EDU aps that have built in speakers for broadcasting and paging and bell systems as well that set up as a simple sip speakerphone. 

[jnic]

12 hours ago, Olroy1234 said:

Is this why my idea with the Asus routers didn't work?

to use both of them you would have to disable dhcp server on one of them

[AGrider]

The Asus routers are just that, a router with an onboard switch and access point, converged into a single appliance. It includes routing features such as wan configuration, nat configuration, switch config, and ap config. What you want to do here needs to still have that router, but you dont want to use the routers wifi. You should look to dedicated APs that do nothing but process wireless connectivity down to the wired network for processing. 

 

That all being said. Try taking one of your Asus routers and turn off the dhcp server, leave the WAN disabled, and plug one asus routers lan port to the lan port on the second. So that you are essentialy using the router as a simple switch and Access point. Youll want to make sure the radios arent overlapping channels, but this should be a viable way to do what you are looking to do. 

 

EDIT: I forgot, you need to change the default address of the secondary router to a different ip that the primary router, or they will conflict. Use an ip address in the same subnet as the primary rotuer. IE: If your primary router is at 10.0.0.1/24 you should configure the secondary one to be at 10.0.0.2/24 or another address on the same subnet outside of the primary routers dhcp scope. If you dont, They will have the same IP on the network and cause conflicts. Set up the secondary router before connecting it to the primary router. 

Edited November 3, 2017 by AGrider
Forgot to include an important config step

[tt2468]

So theres no way you can refuse to do the job?

 

Personally I just tell them that I cant do the job and let them hire some other sorry soul. These are the type of people who will end up taking up more of your time than its worth.

[MWaldhauer]

Check this out dude

 

https://unifi-mesh.ubnt.com/

[Lurick]

20 minutes ago, MWaldhauer said:

Check this out dude

 

https://unifi-mesh.ubnt.com/

What worries me is that the people asking OP for the help, if they had a proper budget, would have had this solved with a contractor as mentioned above.

Also, not sure how good the mesh stuff is through walls like were mentioned.

[Ezzy-525]

How would enterprise wifi like ubiquiti handle concrete walls? Anyone with any experience?

[MWaldhauer]

Just as bad as everything else

If concrete: use a lot of AccessPoints

[bcguru9384]

On ‎11‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 3:12 PM, jnic said:

to use both of them you would have to disable dhcp server on one of them

nope just program the dhcp address pool correctly

[bcguru9384]

Just now, bcguru9384 said:

nope just program the dhcp address pool correctly

gateway #.#.#.1

dhcp 10 devices=#.#.#.2 - #.#.#.11

client at dhcp under new subnet being 10 clients as well but it needs its gateway set to client ip thats now also dhcp host but its address pool #.#.#.12 - #.#.#.21

all ### are same example 192.168.0.#

now the .1 maingate know to use subnetbits to see each "sub"network

i just do not know how to dhcp style distribute the subnetted gateways(thus static setting of those is recommended from ip addresses not under any of the subnetted dhcp pools)

note you can pool the addresses as this form #.3, #.75, #.123, etc if you use the comma seperator

[Cosmic Railgun]

I would just like to update everyone on what happened. I decided to go with all Linksys max stream gear and the network is working beautifully and went up without a hitch, linksys definitely has a solid product line here