Xeon E5 vs E7 for 3D renderfarm?

[Farming3D]

Alright so Im trying to plan a "budget build" in the sense that I am looking to buy used xeons to save some money.  The total budget is around $6,000-8,000 USD and my original plan was to use 2 2-CPU E5 server boards, but after seeing the holy sh!t episode with the 4CPU build, I wanted to consider using a single E7 board with quad sockets.  Im having a hard time finding a lot of information on the advantages/disadvantages of E7, and all Ive learned so far is that they are usually used for banking or large volumes of data.  Ive seen that used E7's also seem to go for 40% cheaper than comparable used E5 xeons despite the E7 being nearly 2x as expensive when new.  I also saw that one server/workstation company (Titan PC's I think it was) builds an 4 CPU E7 rig that they claim is good for 3D rendering, but I dont know how dependable that information is.

 

Im completely new to the idea of a server build and have just been trying to learn what I can over the last few months, so I might be missing something "obvious" when it comes to E5's vs E7's.  but Im basically asking if they would make a good 3D render farm since they do seem to sell for cheaper than the E5's when buying used.

 

Renderer's I use: Vray for Maya, Renderman for Maya, Keyshot.  All multi-core multi-CPU capable.

[domandric034]

9 minutes ago, Farming3D said:

Alright so Im trying to plan a "budget build" in the sense that I am looking to buy used xeons to save some money.  The total budget is around $6,000-8,000 USD and my original plan was to use 2 2-CPU E5 server boards, but after seeing the holy sh!t episode with the 4CPU build, I wanted to consider using a single E7 board with quad sockets.  Im having a hard time finding a lot of information on the advantages/disadvantages of E7, and all Ive learned so far is that they are usually used for banking or large volumes of data.  Ive seen that used E7's also seem to go for 40% cheaper than comparable used E5 xeons despite the E7 being nearly 2x as expensive when new.  I also saw that one server/workstation company (Titan PC's I think it was) builds an 4 CPU E7 rig that they claim is good for 3D rendering, but I dont know how dependable that information is.

 

Im completely new to the idea of a server build and have just been trying to learn what I can over the last few months, so I might be missing something "obvious" when it comes to E5's vs E7's.  but Im basically asking if they would make a good 3D render farm since they do seem to sell for cheaper than the E5's when buying used.

 

Renderer's I use: Vray for Maya, Renderman for Maya, Keyshot.  All multi-core multi-CPU capable.

Get ryzen

[Farming3D]

15 minutes ago, domandric034 said:

Get ryzen

You missed the whole point of my question.  I plan to buy used to save money, Ryzen threadripper (which isnt even out yet) is too new to be able to buy it used, so Id appreciate some knowledge of E5 vs E7.   Ryzen will be considered if the 18 core can be purchased for sub $600 (thats what I can get E5-2697v4 for used), and if its lower power consumption than the 18 or 22 core xeons that I am currently looking at.

 

[domandric034]

1 minute ago, Farming3D said:

you missed the whole point of my question.  I plan to buy used to save money, Ryzen threadripper (which isnt even out yet) is too new to be able to buy it used, so Id appreciate some knowledge of E5 vs E7.   Ryzen will be considered if the 18 core can be purchased for sub $600 (thats what I can get E5-2697v4 for used), and if its lower power consumption than the 18 or 22 core xeons that I am currently looking at.

 

Oh E5's are high end CPU's and E7 are basically E5's but allow 4 CPU's at the same time

[Farming3D]

2 minutes ago, domandric034 said:

Oh E5's are high end CPU's and E7 are basically E5's but allow 4 CPU's at the same time

are you sure the E7's are the same, they have very odd builds, like 15 core E7-4880, and Ive not seen an 15 core E5's.  so I just dont understand if they are the same.  Also why do they cost up to $7,000 new while a similar E5 costs $2500 new?

[TheCherryKing]

1 minute ago, Farming3D said:

are you sure the E7's are the same, they have very odd builds, like 15 core E7-4880, and Ive not seen an 15 core E5's.  so I just dont understand if they are the same.  Also why do they cost up to $7,000 new while a similar E5 costs $2500 new?

Xeon E7's use a different socket than Xeon E5's and have slightly more cores. Xeon E7's support 2, 4, and 8 way configurations. 

[scottyseng]

8 minutes ago, Farming3D said:

-snip-

Be careful, the cheap high core count Xeons you see on ebay are usually ES chips. They work, but there's no warranty and they may have pre retail microcode on them.

 

Also, the quad socket boards / servers I usually see aren't so easy to get used. Some server chassis makers will only sell the quad socket systems as a complete system (with the CPUs new).

 

Although, what renderer are you using? Depends if your renderer is more CPU vs GPU bound.

 

But yeah, the E7 has eight and four socket support, more memory configuration (It supports more RAM than the E5 does at least when in quad socket boards), and is usually found in tightly packed servers.

 

I'd personally say to go for the cheaper as long as you can find a board and chassis for them.

 

I also render on my own server, a E5-2695V3. It works well with two 1070s.

[TheCherryKing]

1 minute ago, scottyseng said:

Be careful, the cheap high core count Xeons you see on ebay are usually ES chips. They work, but there's no warranty and they may have pre retail microcode on them.

 

Also, the quad socket boards / servers I usually see aren't so easy to get used. Some server chassis makers will only sell the quad socket systems as a complete system (with the CPUs new).

 

Although, what renderer are you using? Depends if your renderer is more CPU vs GPU bound.

 

But yeah, the E7 has eight and four socket support, more memory configuration (It supports more RAM than the E5 does at least when in quad socket boards), and is usually found in tightly packed servers.

 

I'd personally say to go for the cheaper as long as you can find a board and chassis for them.

 

I also render on my own server, a E5-2695V3. It works well with two 1070s.

I got E5-2695v3's on eBay for only $700 each!

[scottyseng]

1 minute ago, TheCherryKing said:

I got E5-2695v3's on eBay for only $700 each!

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me with how old they are. I got mine for $600 about two years ago, but mine's an ES chip. I'm tempted to build another render server soon...

[Farming3D]

3 minutes ago, TheCherryKing said:

Xeon E7's use a different socket than Xeon E5's and have slightly more cores. Xeon E7's support 2, 4, and 8 way configurations. 

yeah I knew they used a different socket type.  I think it was 2011-1 or cj02... or something.  but I didnt know if they both runder 3D "equally" or if one has a better architecture for 3D.  like I said... no idea about server CPU's so this is all a learning experience

 

2 minutes ago, scottyseng said:

Be careful, the cheap high core count Xeons you see on ebay are usually ES chips. They work, but there's no warranty and they may have pre retail microcode on them.

 

Also, the quad socket boards / servers I usually see aren't so easy to get used. Some server chassis makers will only sell the quad socket systems as a complete system (with the CPUs new).

 

Although, what renderer are you using? Depends if your renderer is more CPU vs GPU bound.

 

But yeah, the E7 has eight and four socket support, more memory configuration (It supports more RAM than the E5 does at least when in quad socket boards), and is usually found in tightly packed servers.

 

I'd personally say to go for the cheaper as long as you can find a board and chassis for them.

 

I also render on my own server, a E5-2695V3. It works well with two 1070s.

I plan to buy a supermicro board new, and if its a 4 socket Im prepared for the $2,500+ bill.  and I was talking about non engineering samples.  Ive seen engineering samples go for as low as $400 for 2697 v4, and as low as $150 for an E7 4880L.  and speaking of what is the difference in E7 CPU's that end in L or other letters?

[TheCherryKing]

Just now, scottyseng said:

Yeah, that doesn't surprise me with how old they are. I got mine for $600 about two years ago, but mine's an ES chip. I'm tempted to build another render server soon...

Mine are qualified samples, not engineering samples. Haswell is the second newest generation of DP Xeon Processors(until Skylake-SP comes out).

[TheCherryKing]

Just now, Farming3D said:

yeah I knew they used a different socket type.  I think it was 2011-1 or cj02... or something.  but I didnt know if they both runder 3D "equally" or if one has a better architecture for 3D.  like I said... no idea about server CPU's so this is all a learning experience

 

I plan to buy a supermicro board new, and if its a 4 socket Im prepared for the $2,500+ bill.  and I was talking about non engineering samples.  Ive seen engineering samples go for as low as $400 for 2697 v4, and as low as $150 for an E7 4880L.  and speaking of what is the difference in E7 CPU's that end in L or other letters?

Supermicro doesn't sell quad socket boards separately. The 'L" stands for low power.

[Farming3D]

Just now, TheCherryKing said:

Mine are qualified samples, not engineering samples. Haswell is the second newest generation of DP Xeon Processors(until Skylake-SP comes out).

right that reminds me, when looking at supermicro there are DP xeons MP and some other acronyms, can I get a quick explanation on these?  all that Ive figured out is the MP line I think supports the E7, and I think the DP supports the E5, but again cant say for sure.

[TheCherryKing]

DP is for two E5 processors. MP is for four or eight E7 processors.

[Farming3D]

4 minutes ago, TheCherryKing said:

Supermicro doesn't sell quad socket boards separately. The 'L" stands for low power.

but these say they support E7's are these not new?
 https://www.amazon.com/Supermicro-SuperMicro-X10QBL-Motherboard/dp/B012JIJ5VA/ref=pd_lpo_sbs_147_t_1?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=VQDSV58AAN65H60KHMRV

[scottyseng]

2 minutes ago, Farming3D said:

I plan to buy a supermicro board new, and if its a 4 socket Im prepared for the $2,500+ bill.  and I was talking about non engineering samples.  Ive seen engineering samples go for as low as $400 for 2697 v4, and as low as $150 for an E7 4880L.  and speaking of what is the difference in E7 CPU's that end in L or other letters?

Yeah, I know supermicro doesn't sell the quad socket board separately. They kind of make you buy the whole system new.

 

As for supermicro, UP = uni processor, DP = dual processor, and MP = multi processor (4 or 8).

 

E7 and E5 will render just the same.

 

3 minutes ago, TheCherryKing said:

Mine are qualified samples, not engineering samples. Haswell is the second newest generation of DP Xeon Processors(until Skylake-SP comes out).

Ah, you got lucky. QS chips weren't so easy to find when I was building my server (originally a super overkill NAS)...and now your average 1700 will beat it. Though I love how low power it runs. Like I have a small 92mm tower heatsink on it, and I have never gotten this Xeon to go past 60C, even with two GPUs in the system.

 

I hope to pick up another Xeon high core count chip in a year or two and load it with more GPUs for vray rendering.

[TheCherryKing]

I didn't know that the motherboards are sold separately on amazon.

[Farming3D]

Just now, TheCherryKing said:

I didn't know that the motherboards are sold separately on amazon.

yeah Ive been looking at these for 6 months now, well I guess I got to teach someone something  not totally useless over here.  Thanks for all the info btw.

[TheCherryKing]

Would two processors be enough for your workload? I've seen great deals for processor/motherboard combinations on eBay.

[scottyseng]

1 minute ago, TheCherryKing said:

I didn't know that the motherboards are sold separately on amazon.

I don't think that's from SuperMicro themselves...probably a third party seller. Amazon's kind of sketchy with Brands lately (you can find tons of fake memory cards on there mixed in with real ones).

[Farming3D]

Just now, TheCherryKing said:

Would two processors be enough for your workload? I've seen great deals for processor/motherboard combinations on eBay.

well if its a good enough deal Id consider buying 2x 2 CPU boards.  I just prefer a single board for slightly less headache, but I am very sure it will be 4 CPU's total since I need to cut render times down to under 1 day for clients, so I need very serious power if I want to stop paying renderfarms.  Also Keyshot costs me a lot to render for since I need to rent an entire server from a farm, which costs a lot of money, so i really need as many as I can get for about 8k.  As it stands I think I spend about 3-5k a year on renderfarm services.

[scottyseng]

Just now, Farming3D said:

well if its a good enough deal Id consider buying 2x 2 CPU boards.  I just prefer a single board for slightly less headache, but I am very sure it will be 4 CPU's total since I need to cut render times down to under 1 day for clients, so I need very serious power if I want to stop paying renderfarms.  Also Keyshot costs me a lot to render for since I need to rent an entire server from a farm, which costs a lot of money, so i really need as many as I can get for about 8k.  As it stands I think I spend about 3-5k a year on renderfarm services.

Well, have to keep in mind you'll have to deal with service / cleaning the render server...and cooling (My room gets really hot...). I'm sure it'll pack quite a lot of power though, even then I think you might actually need more, depending on how willing you are to wait. I kind of went for GPU rendering because of that (Vray RT).

 

I do think you should be able to build several servers for your budget, but depends if you get a used server chassis or not.

[Farming3D]

7 minutes ago, scottyseng said:

Well, have to keep in mind you'll have to deal with service / cleaning the render server...and cooling (My room gets really hot...). I'm sure it'll pack quite a lot of power though, even then I think you might actually need more, depending on how willing you are to wait. I kind of went for GPU rendering because of that (Vray RT).

 

I do think you should be able to build several servers for your budget, but depends if you get a used server chassis or not.

Cooling will only be a problem 3 months of the year, I live in Canada and usually we have 8-9 months of sub 15C weather and 4-5 months of Sub 9c weather, so the server will be located near a window which is under a balcony (so weather cant get in) so cooling it will be cheap for most of the year.  Summer will be an expensive AC bill though.  As for cleaning, nothing Im not already used to, Ive been using 5 separate machines as render nodes for the past few years and its not convenient to clean 5 separate machines in different rooms, so the idea of having everything on 1 rack seems nice.

[scottyseng]

1 minute ago, Farming3D said:

Cooling will only be a problem 3 months of the year, I live in Canada and usually we have 8-9 months of sub 15C weather and 4-5 months of Sub 9c weather, so the server will be located near a window which is under a balcony (so weather cant get in) so cooling it will be cheap for most of the year.  Summer will be an expensive AC bill though.and as for cleaning, nothing Im not already used to, Ive been using 5 seperate machines as render nodes for the past few years and its not convinient to clean 5 seperate machines in different rooms, so the idea of having everything on 1 rack seems nice.

Ah, you're lucky. You have natural cooling...here in Texas, it's probably 32C for the majority of the year. In summer, usually 40.5C....

 

Yeah, I have to clean my server every month at least and it's alright. I can't imagine having to clean a room full of these though...

 

I'm sure you already budgeted it, but don't forget a good UPS unit for the render server.

 

Though even though you can buy the quad socket motherboard...I wonder if you can buy the empty chassis that goes with it. That sounds tough to find.

[Farming3D]

2 minutes ago, scottyseng said:

Ah, you're lucky. You have natural cooling...here in Texas, it's probably 32C for the majority of the year. In summer, usually 40.5C....

 

Yeah, I have to clean my server every month at least and it's alright. I can't imagine having to clean a room full of these though...

 

I'm sure you already budgeted it, but don't forget a good UPS unit for the render server.

 

Though even though you can buy the quad socket motherboard...I wonder if you can buy the empty chassis that goes with it. That sounds tough to find.

Ive not done much digging on the chassis yet because I didnt even know if E7 was an option until just now.  so Ill keep digging knowing both E5 and E7 are valid options for a render farm, I guess if worse comes to worse I could try and do a fancy wall build, but then that gets near impossible if I need more than 1 board.  also loud, harder to clean and harder to control heat ventilation.