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13HP Electric Bike?

BuckGup
By BuckGup
in Hobby Electronics
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Is 13HP enough to move a 160lb person on a bike with some gearing?

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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3 minutes ago, Hackentosher said:

I'm going to have to say yes, pretty sure normal electric bikes have less power than that.

Alright

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 minute ago, Dogeystyle said:

If you mean HP as in horsepower, it's way more than enough. 1 hp is 750watts. Lance Armstrong would be jealous of that bike.

Yeah I think it's around 10,500 watts. So you are saying it's overkill?

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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1 minute ago, SamStrecker said:

Yeah I think it's around 10,500 watts. So you are saying it's overkill?

Dude, Usain Bolt max out on an exercise bike produces around 2000 watts. Chris Froome (3x TdF winner) can sustain about 400 watts. Assuming you're 160lb, and on max power you can produce 10 kW on that bike you're looking at a power to weight ratio of 138 Watts/kg. You'd be extremely fast, are you sure that 13hp figure is correct? Because even the top ebikes only give about 800 Watts or so for like 20 minutes.

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48 minutes ago, Dogeystyle said:

Dude, Usain Bolt max out on an exercise bike produces around 2000 watts. Chris Froome (3x TdF winner) can sustain about 400 watts. Assuming you're 160lb, and on max power you can produce 10 kW on that bike you're looking at a power to weight ratio of 138 Watts/kg. You'd be extremely fast, are you sure that 13hp figure is correct? Because even the top ebikes only give about 800 Watts or so for like 20 minutes.

The motor was able to get a 1/5th scale RC car weighing 66lbs up to about 70mph.

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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13hp is MORE that enough to get a person moving. There are even small motorcycles like the honda grom that have just 9hp and that's enough to get up to a top speed of 60-70 mph

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1 hour ago, bob345 said:

13hp is MORE that enough to get a person moving. There are even small motorcycles like the honda grom that have just 9hp and that's enough to get up to a top speed of 60-70 mph

Oh....

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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3 hours ago, SamStrecker said:

Is 13HP enough to move a 160lb person on a bike with some gearing?

However much horsepower the average human has is the minimum amount you'll need. That's about bursts of 2.5 HP and sustained amounts of 0.1-0.3 HP. With the right gearing, and knowing exactly how your motor is producing the 13 horsepower (HP = (Torque * RPM) / 5252) so that you can design your gearing correctly you can probably make a 100 MPH bike with 13 horsepower. 

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24 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

However much horsepower the average human has is the minimum amount you'll need. That's about bursts of 2.5 HP and sustained amounts of 0.1-0.3 HP. With the right gearing, and knowing exactly how your motor is producing the 13 horsepower (HP = (Torque * RPM) / 5252) so that you can design your gearing correctly you can probably make a 100 MPH bike with 13 horsepower. 

100MPH seems pretty crazy so I might either gear it down like crazy or buy a helmet and leather suit

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 minutes ago, SamStrecker said:

100MPH seems pretty crazy so I might either gear it down like crazy or buy a helmet and leather suit

It wouldn't go that fast unless you designed it to. The engine probably spins pretty slowly. If you're just using the stock gearing of the bicycle your fastest speed is probably in the 50-60 range.+



I was just saying that it could go that fast if you wanted it to.

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3 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

It wouldn't go that fast unless you designed it to. The engine probably spins pretty slowly. If you're just using the stock gearing of the bicycle your fastest speed is probably in the 50-60 range.+



I was just saying that it could go that fast if you wanted it to.

It's an 800Kv electric motor

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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15 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

That's not enough information for the gearing side of it. I need a torque/rpm graph. Do you know the manufacturer and model number of the thing?

http://www.castlecreations.com/en/2028-extreme-800kv-motor-060-0054-00

The original 13HP I didn't come up with. The person said they calculated it with the gearing they had. 

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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So by using the HP equation, Hp = (T * Rm) / 5252 we can derive a torque equation: T = (5252Hp) / Rm . Using this, we can get a best case (or highest output) scenario of 1.167 Lb/Ft of torque. Which is a scenario that I would have counted on if I had known that this was an RC motor. 

There's two ways to get high horsepower: the brute force way (like a diesel) and the go fast way (like a supersport motor). Basically, given any horsepower rating there are two schools of thought on how to arrive there: Low torque and high speed or high torque and low speed. With the appropriate gearing, you can arrive at identical performance in terms of speed and acceleration from both schools of thought, although engine response may be different.

According to Trek, professional cyclists can apply an average sustained torque of around 36 Lb/Ft and sprints of up to 83 Lb/Ft. Your motor supplies up to 1.167 Lb/Ft of torque. That's a massive problem, because, using normal gearing, or even direct drive, that's not enough to really get you moving, and you will definitely overheat the motor if you try for too long.

But not all is lost, all we need to do is gear down the motor before attaching it either directly to the rear wheel or the front sprocket on a multispeed bicycle. 

 

For me, the best solution in the general case is to attach the geared down motor to the front sprocket, as this allows for the widest range of speeds, although acceleration may be limited when compared to direct drive (contrary to the usual line of thought) because of the amount of time that shifting gears will take. To do this, you also have to carefully select the appropriate motor, for reasons that I will show in the following sentences. Calculating the number for torque only gives us a gear ratio range of [35:1, 70:1]. However, if we look at the output RPM/torque of these gear reductions, we see that they are 1286 RPM at 41 Ft/Lbs and 642 RPM at 82 Ft/Lbs. The torque numbers are spot on, however the revolutions are too fast. About 10 times and 6 times too fast, respectively. A professional cyclist will try to push to about 80-110 RPM. We really want to stay in the 60-80 MPH range, as that is were all of our flatground, unpaced, cycling records fall. This keeps the speeds within the level of realism and safety for a bicycle. We will ideally want our motor to push a maximum of 200 RPM to the front sprocket, which will yield a gear ratio of 225:1. This will supply our front sprocket with 262 ft/lbs of torque and 200 RPM. That's about twice as much torque as we would expect to be applied to even the most high quality of cycling front sprockets, but I think that with careful use and good maintenance the equipment could handle it. This is not ideal, but oh well. Ideally, we would select a motor that will give us, either through gear reduction or not, the appropriate 100 Ft/Lb and 200 RPM that we want.

 

With direct drive, that is, attaching the motor directly to the rear wheel hub just as the rear sprocket is, things are very similar to the previous example, but slightly simpler as it is unlikely that we will break any components by slightly overtorquing or overspeeding them. With direct drive, we will probably want a top speed somewhere around 40 miles an hour. This will give us a good middle ground mix of acceleration and top speed. On a normal bicycle with a 26 inch wheel, to get a linear velocity of 40 MPH we need our direct drive unit to have an output speed of 517 RPM. This gives us a gear reduction ratio of 85:1 which yields an input speed of 529 RPM with 99 Lb/Ft of torque. This is plenty to make the bike move and have good acceleration. This solution will give us 9.97 HP at the wheel, which is similar to what a 125 CC dirtbike has. With that motor, this is the solution that I would pick. 

 


DISCLAIMER:: All of this math assumes a maximum throttle scenario (this is why I dealt with top speeds and maximum torques) and assumes that the manufacturer given information of 10HP and 45,000 RPM is correct. 
 

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30 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

snip
 

Very useful info. Would it be worth my time to make it so the motor had swappable gears like the bike has? I am thinking of mirroring the pedaling side but with a motor.

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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35 minutes ago, SamStrecker said:

Very useful info. Would it be worth my time to make it so the motor had swappable gears like the bike has? I am thinking of mirroring the pedaling side but with a motor.

Here you are, just do a gear reduction of 255:1 before connecting the motor to the front sprocket, and then do so like in the following video (but a little nicer): Be warned, without getting too advanced with your engineering, the only way to shift will be to let off the throttle, shift, pedal forward to move the chain to the new sprocket(s), and then get back on the throttle.

1 hour ago, straight_stewie said:

A professional cyclist will try to push to about 80-110 RPM. We really want to stay in the 60-80 MPH range, as that is were all of our flatground, unpaced, cycling records fall. This keeps the speeds within the level of realism and safety for a bicycle. We will ideally want our motor to push a maximum of 200 RPM to the front sprocket, which will yield a gear ratio of 225:1. This will supply our front sprocket with 262 ft/lbs of torque and 200 RPM. That's about twice as much torque as we would expect to be applied to even the most high quality of cycling front sprockets, but I think that with careful use and good maintenance the equipment could handle it. This is not ideal, but oh well. Ideally, we would select a motor that will give us, either through gear reduction or not, the appropriate 100 Ft/Lb and 200 RPM that we want.


P.S: You'll probably want to use a worm drive or planetary drive for the reduction drive due to the extremely low gear ratio. To get one that can withstand the torque requirements without being too large and heavy, you'll probably have to design it yourself. That shouldn't be too hard if you have experience with a 3d printer and lego technic. Also be warned that bearing and gear selection is very important. 45,000 RPM is EXTREMELY fast and as such, you will need machining quality bearings and gears as well as a very sturdy housing.

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34 minutes ago, straight_stewie said:

Here you are, just do a gear reduction of 255:1 before connecting the motor to the front sprocket, and then do so like in the following video (but a little nicer): Be warned, without getting too advanced with your engineering, the only way to shift will be to let off the throttle, shift, pedal forward to move the chain to the new sprocket(s), and then get back on the throttle.


P.S: You'll probably want to use a worm drive or planetary drive for the reduction drive due to the extremely low gear ratio. To get one that can withstand the torque requirements without being too large and heavy, you'll probably have to design it yourself. That shouldn't be too hard if you have experience with a 3d printer and lego technic. Also be warned that bearing and gear selection is very important. 45,000 RPM is EXTREMELY fast and as such, you will need machining quality bearings and gears as well as a very sturdy housing.

The motor he used in the video was a lot smaller and is brushed. I might be over thinking how much power is needed to move a human on a bike. It probably doesn't go fast. Also what about inhub motors? It seems to bypass any problem with gearing. But they seem expensive and a tad slow.

▓ƆԀ▓ S▓₱▓Ɇ▓c▓s▓: i7 6ʇɥפᴉƎ00K (4.4ghz), Asus DeLuxe X99A II, GT҉X҉1҉0҉8҉0 Zotac Amp ExTrꍟꎭe),Si6F4Gb D???????r PlatinUm, EVGA G2 Sǝʌǝᘉ5ᙣᙍᖇᓎᙎᗅᖶt, Phanteks Enthoo Primo, 3TB WD Black, 500gb 850 Evo, H100iGeeTeeX, Windows 10, K70 R̸̢̡̭͍͕̱̭̟̩̀̀̃́̃͒̈́̈́͑̑́̆͘͜ͅG̶̦̬͊́B̸͈̝̖͗̈́, G502, HyperX Cloud 2s, Asus MX34. פN∩SW∀S 960 EVO

Just keeping this here as a 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2 hours ago, SamStrecker said:

The motor he used in the video was a lot smaller and is brushed. I might be over thinking how much power is needed to move a human on a bike. It probably doesn't go fast. Also what about inhub motors? It seems to bypass any problem with gearing. But they seem expensive and a tad slow.

Well, as I previously alluded to, the best solution is to find a motor that outputs the proper torque at the proper speed without needing to be geared, or be geared too much (I think hub motors might actually be geared down with a planetary, because it's much easier and cheaper to build a high speed/low torque motor than a high torque/low speed motor). 

I'm thinking that the best thing to do in your situation is to rig your motor up to the hub with the 85:1 gear reduction. The hardest part of that task would be building the gear reduction. I've done some more research though, and you could easily do that large of a reduction with a gear drive if you're super smart about it, infact, you can do it with only four gears, granted, one of them needs 170 teeth and would be relatively large (relative to the RC world), but it would work.

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