Questions for IT/Comp Sci Majors

[rokerlykdat]

Hello, and thanks for taking a look at my thread. I've been a fan of LTT for a couple years now and I'm just about finished with my generals in community college and I wanted to ask a few questions about the industry.  It's also part of my assignment which is kinda convenient. Also yes I plan on using google, but I'd like to use personal experiences from other users on this board. 

1. What are some key issues within our industry? Besides specific jobs being pretty competitive.

2. What jobs are the most demand, least demand? ( Pay isn't a concern, I'm looking for percentiles)
3. What types of studies are a "Trap" or most likely to not get you a career?

4. What are the higher paying jobs at which degree levels, (AA, BA, Masters)
5. Is there any writing involved? (Writing reports and such)

Thanks once again if you decide to take the time to help me out with my assignment, and possibly with some guidance in my future career(s).

(P.S. I had a weird issue trying to make this thread and had to reset my account and when I came back my post was still saved, this forum is sweet.)

[davidna2002]

Answers from 18 year IT veteran.

 

1: Biggest issue today is data security which is something every discipline of IT can do something about.

2: As a current employer I need people that can just simply think and take initiative w/o having to be micro managed.  That is the most important quality I look for.  Otherwise any IT discipline can make good pay and it'll depend on the area/market you are looking for a job.  The key is to learn and move on to another job to keep learning.  If you are at a job doing the same thing your career is going to suffer big time.  My average was about 3 years per job which drove my wife crazy.  Its also where you'll get the big jumps in pay.

3: I would say that web designers pretty much have died out [IMHO and as I started my IT career as one] and you shouldn't spend time with that.

4:  A degree is no guarantee as I look for people who have solid real world experience and can perform under pressure, no degree can provide that.  New college grads would say in an interview...  "Well we did some labs to simulate that".  It'll also depend on the college you get the degree from.  ie a degree from MIT would probboaly be better than most.

5: Documentation will always plague you but can save your a$$ if it hits the fan.

 

GL

 

 

[rokerlykdat]

Thank you very much,  your post was very insightful and encouraging.  I'll also take a peek at MIT but thanks a bunch, any other replies are greatly encouraged. 

[aithos]

1 hour ago, rokerlykdat said:

1. What are some key issues within our industry? Besides specific jobs being pretty competitive.

2. What jobs are the most demand, least demand? ( Pay isn't a concern, I'm looking for percentiles)
3. What types of studies are a "Trap" or most likely to not get you a career?

4. What are the higher paying jobs at which degree levels, (AA, BA, Masters)
5. Is there any writing involved? (Writing reports and such)

1) Security.  Cyber security is a critical issue now and will only become more and more familiar moving forward.  Having a good understanding of security concepts (physical, network and software) is going to be a key focus for people wanting to work in IT whether you want to work with databases, programming or something else.

 

2) Software developer/engineer, Database admin/programmer, IT analyst, IT support.  Security specific job are hard to rate because all of the above include security, anything involving hardware or web design is garbage and should be avoided at all costs unless you want to be an electrical engineer.

 

3) Game development.  Literally everyone between the ages of 5-40 wants to make video games and there just aren't many *good* studios to work for.  Video game programming is difficult, very narrow in focus, is ridiculously competitive, requires that you live in one of 3 specific areas (the bigger two of which are some of the most expensive places to live) and on top of all that... you work more hours and make less money for doing the same job.  If you *REALLY* want to do it be prepared to make some big sacrifices, and make damn sure you are extremely dedicated and are willing to put in a LOT of effort over a long period of time.

 

4) Unless you want to teach or go into project management the rule of thumb is that you want a B.S. in Computer Science.  You won't get any decent jobs with an associates in today's job market, and a master's will only help you for specific jobs but will also price you out of MANY jobs because having a masters doesn't make you a better programmer.  IT jobs evolve so rapidly that you're going to learn very little in school beyond the fundamentals, you're going to have to learn everything else on the job and so getting more education just isn't that helpful.  Someone with a BS and 2 years of experience is FAR more desirable than someone with a Masters and 0 experience.

 

5) Yes.  You will have to document things, communicate with people constantly (developers, database people, analysts, managers, customers, etc), and you will also have to write up requirements documents, analysis reports, or any of a variety of other things depending on which role you go into.  Being an IT person does not mean sitting in a cubicle pounding away at a keyboard all day with no writing or communication.

[aithos]

I just want to respond to a few of his comments...

 

1 hour ago, davidna2002 said:

Answers from 18 year IT veteran.

 

1: Biggest issue today is data security which is something every discipline of IT can do something about.

2: As a current employer I need people that can just simply think and take initiative w/o having to be micro managed.  That is the most important quality I look for.  Otherwise any IT discipline can make good pay and it'll depend on the area/market you are looking for a job.  The key is to learn and move on to another job to keep learning.  If you are at a job doing the same thing your career is going to suffer big time.  My average was about 3 years per job which drove my wife crazy.  Its also where you'll get the big jumps in pay.

3: I would say that web designers pretty much have died out [IMHO and as I started my IT career as one] and you shouldn't spend time with that.

4:  A degree is no guarantee as I look for people who have solid real world experience and can perform under pressure, no degree can provide that.  New college grads would say in an interview...  "Well we did some labs to simulate that".  It'll also depend on the college you get the degree from.  ie a degree from MIT would probboaly be better than most.

5: Documentation will always plague you but can save your a$$ if it hits the fan.

 

GL

 

 

 

2) His statement about switching jobs every 3 years is spot on, not only do things change rapidly but a lot of work is contract-based and you WILL find yourself in new positions.  If you aren't changing jobs you will not jump pay very quickly at all, so if change scares you then IT is a bad idea.  I've been working in IT for going on 7 years now and my pay has increased several times faster than my best friend who has been working in IT for 13 years (at the same company in a couple roles).  To the point that I'm making quite a bit more than he is in about half the time.  Don't needlessly job hop and make sure you pick positions you can be successful in, but 3 years is a good sweet-spot if you're smart about it.  The key is to make sure that every job adds something to your resume, a new language, a new environment, a new certification, a new tool-set, more responsibility, etc.

 

4) Here is where I disagree.  Most jobs won't even consider you if you don't have a degree unless you have a lot of experience, so while it's nice that he says he looks for people with "real world experience" the fact of the matter is that YOU DON'T HAVE ANY.  So you *NEED* a Bachelor's, plain and simple.  The days are gone when you could get entry level jobs without one unless you're extraordinarily lucky or you know someone.

 

I also agree with the ones I didn't respond to, was kinda silly putting "+1" three times...

[rokerlykdat]

48 minutes ago, aithos said:

 

 

4) Here is where I disagree.  Most jobs won't even consider you if you don't have a degree unless you have a lot of experience, so while it's nice that he says he looks for people with "real world experience" the fact of the matter is that YOU DON'T HAVE ANY.  So you *NEED* a Bachelor's, plain and simple.  The days are gone when you could get entry level jobs without one unless you're extraordinarily lucky or you know someone.

 

 

 

 

I'm half and half on this as well. For part of my research on my assignment, I looked around for jobs that has "IT" openings in my general 30mile radius area and there are some openings that seem to lean more  towards experience over a bachelor's. Most openings around here (southern California)  were looking for CCNE and Sec+ certs with a couple years of experience over the Bachelors. Some even said "experience equal to around a bachelor degree." which I'm assuming meant, enough experience will possibly net you the position. However some high paying jobs definitely wanted the bachelor's, but that's pretty much expected.

[davidna2002]

43 minutes ago, rokerlykdat said:

I'm half and half on this as well. For part of my research on my assignment, I looked around for jobs that has "IT" openings in my general 30mile radius area and there are some openings that seem to lean more  towards experience over a bachelor's. Most openings around here (southern California)  were looking for CCNE and Sec+ certs with a couple years of experience over the Bachelors. Some even said "experience equal to around a bachelor degree." which I'm assuming meant, enough experience will possibly net you the position. However some high paying jobs definitely wanted the bachelor's, but that's pretty much expected.

IMHO on the job experience will always trump someone fresh out of college with an IT degree an no XP.  And 99% of the time when you write your resume all your experience is listed first while your education is usually at the bottom.  I think it is like that for a reason.  

[aithos]

27 minutes ago, davidna2002 said:

IMHO on the job experience will always trump someone fresh out of college with an IT degree an no XP.  And 99% of the time when you write your resume all your experience is listed first while your education is usually at the bottom.  I think it is like that for a reason.  

I don't disagree with you at all.  Job experience is MUCH more important than a Bachelor's degree, *but* you will not find many jobs at all that don't require a degree OR a certain amount of on-the-job experience.  So how is someone like the OP supposed to acquire said experience?  The answer: get a Bachelor's degree and accept an entry level position in order to gain the experience necessary.  It is extremely difficult to find a position that doesn't require EITHER a degree or experience, IE: it's such a low chance it isn't even worth talking about.

 

TLDR: with so many people having a Bachelor's and no experience, why would anyone hire the OP with neither?  In short: they wouldn't.

 

Edit: just give you an idea... I worked a non-IT related job for 3 years before I got my first job with my Bachelor's degree, and I had a decade of other work experience and a substantial amount of management experience.  I'm not in S. California but the job market in my area wasn't bad at the time either.

[aithos]

58 minutes ago, rokerlykdat said:

I'm half and half on this as well. For part of my research on my assignment, I looked around for jobs that has "IT" openings in my general 30mile radius area and there are some openings that seem to lean more  towards experience over a bachelor's. Most openings around here (southern California)  were looking for CCNE and Sec+ certs with a couple years of experience over the Bachelors. Some even said "experience equal to around a bachelor degree." which I'm assuming meant, enough experience will possibly net you the position. However some high paying jobs definitely wanted the bachelor's, but that's pretty much expected.

Those things you're seeing are additional requirements in addition to a degree or work experience.  Trust me, if you don't have any experience and you don't have a degree you aren't getting a job unless you are extremely lucky or know someone (as I said before).  People with degree's and no experience are a dime a dozen, and no matter how awesome a person you are a company will choose one of those people over you when neither of you have experience.

 

IT is a big field and it's one of the best for job growth, that doesn't mean jobs are falling from trees and anyone can secure one.  You're in a good job market for IT if you're in S. California, but you're also in an extremely competitive one with a lot of people looking for the same jobs as you.

[davidna2002]

24 minutes ago, aithos said:

I don't disagree with you at all.  Job experience is MUCH more important than a Bachelor's degree, *but* you will not find many jobs at all that don't require a degree OR a certain amount of on-the-job experience.  So how is someone like the OP supposed to acquire said experience?  The answer: get a Bachelor's degree and accept an entry level position in order to gain the experience necessary.  It is extremely difficult to find a position that doesn't require EITHER a degree or experience, IE: it's such a low chance it isn't even worth talking about.

 

TLDR: with so many people having a Bachelor's and no experience, why would anyone hire the OP with neither?  In short: they wouldn't.

quite the conundrum

[aithos]

1 minute ago, davidna2002 said:

quite the conundrum

Yep.  I think what people forget when they look at the "best" fields with the largest year-to-year gains in jobs is that it isn't just an increase in jobs with the same candidate pool... you also have more and more people studying and making career changes to those fields.  So even though there has been a lot of job growth the rate of people entering the field is even higher.  It's still a good field to study, but it's not like you graduate and someone shakes your hand and gives you a job either.

[rokerlykdat]

18 minutes ago, aithos said:

Yep.  I think what people forget when they look at the "best" fields with the largest year-to-year gains in jobs is that it isn't just an increase in jobs with the same candidate pool... you also have more and more people studying and making career changes to those fields.  So even though there has been a lot of job growth the rate of people entering the field is even higher.  It's still a good field to study, but it's not like you graduate and someone shakes your hand and gives you a job either.

Yeah, unfortunately that is a mess that I will have to luck out or give a few more years into college before I can solve this issue. I believe that if I play my cards right and keep my eyes peeled I may be able to find somewhere to start. I actually did find a job that had very low requirements a few cities over but i'm halfway through a semester right now and it's full-time so unfortunately that'll have to wait. 

[aithos]

18 minutes ago, rokerlykdat said:

Yeah, unfortunately that is a mess that I will have to luck out or give a few more years into college before I can solve this issue. I believe that if I play my cards right and keep my eyes peeled I may be able to find somewhere to start. I actually did find a job that had very low requirements a few cities over but i'm halfway through a semester right now and it's full-time so unfortunately that'll have to wait. 

I'm not saying those things to "scare" you or anything and it isn't a problem you can't overcome, I just want you to have realistic expectations.  A lot of people go to college because they were told they "have" to, but those people who told them that didn't bother to mention that going to college doesn't guarantee you a job or a good career. 

 

There are things you can do to make yourself a more attractive candidate.  Here are a few things to start with:

- Get a job.  Any job, but do it before you graduate college.  Show employers that you can hold a job for a year or two and even if it's in a completely unrelated field that makes you more attractive than Johnny 22 year old never worked before.

 

- Get involved in clubs and activities.  Even if it's just a code competition or you're volunteering for a charity, employers wants to see that you're the kind of person who likes to make a difference and challenge yourself personally and professionally.

 

- Learn the job market.  What I mean is you need to find out what companies in the job/market are looking for and make sure your experience/resume reflects those skills and if possible certifications.  So if you want to be a programmer: get security+, learn popular languages/tools, etc.

 

- If you want to do software development get involved with open-source development.  The number one skill you need as a software developer in nearly *every* job is the ability to work with other people's code, figure out what is good/bad/ugly and improve or refactor it.  It is also something you will NEVER learn in school to any real degree because it's too complex and time intensive, so working with open source software is probably the only easy way to get exposure to that.  Start small, you don't need to jump into working on the newest Unreal Engine or Open Office... maybe a simple utility or plug-in.

 

 

[Nipplemilk909]

6 hours ago, davidna2002 said:

Answers from 18 year IT veteran.

 

1: Biggest issue today is data security which is something every discipline of IT can do something about.

2: As a current employer I need people that can just simply think and take initiative w/o having to be micro managed.  That is the most important quality I look for.  Otherwise any IT discipline can make good pay and it'll depend on the area/market you are looking for a job.  The key is to learn and move on to another job to keep learning.  If you are at a job doing the same thing your career is going to suffer big time.  My average was about 3 years per job which drove my wife crazy.  Its also where you'll get the big jumps in pay.

3: I would say that web designers pretty much have died out [IMHO and as I started my IT career as one] and you shouldn't spend time with that.

4:  A degree is no guarantee as I look for people who have solid real world experience and can perform under pressure, no degree can provide that.  New college grads would say in an interview...  "Well we did some labs to simulate that".  It'll also depend on the college you get the degree from.  ie a degree from MIT would probboaly be better than most.

5: Documentation will always plague you but can save your a$$ if it hits the fan.

 

GL

 

 

Mmm you have and open spots? ?

[Nipplemilk909]

3 hours ago, davidna2002 said:

quite the conundrum

Also , what certs or most usefully right now ? I heard ccna and sap are good 

[Lurick]

I see a few people saying "You need a Bachelors or similar" but seem to forget that there are a lot of companies that offer internships for college kids that can get your feet wet and in the door. That's how I got my job with an Associates degree, a paid internship which helped land me a full-time job once I graduated. On top of that the work exp was used for course credit which helped out too

[Nipplemilk909]

3 minutes ago, Lurick said:

I see a few people saying "You need a Bachelors or similar" but seem to forget that there are a lot of companies that offer internships for college kids that can get your feet wet and in the door. That's how I got my job with an Associates degree, a paid internship which helped land me a full-time job once I graduated. On top of that the work exp was used for course credit which helped out too

Bwhat cpanys are doing this?

[Lurick]

2 minutes ago, Nipplemilk909 said:

Bwhat cpanys are doing this?

Depends on the field. I can think of a ton of companies in the networking field that offer this.

 

Ex: VMWare, Cisco, Facebook, Google, Linkedin, Juniper, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, NetApp, Intel

[Nipplemilk909]

1 minute ago, Lurick said:

Depends on the field. I can think of a ton of companies in the networking field that offer this.

My bad forgot to specify cyber sec and networking 

[Lurick]

Just now, Nipplemilk909 said:

My bad forgot to specify cyber sec and networking 

See my edit

[chrisholland03]

6 hours ago, davidna2002 said:

Answers from 18 year IT veteran.

 

1: Biggest issue today is data security which is something every discipline of IT can do something about.

2: As a current employer I need people that can just simply think and take initiative w/o having to be micro managed.  That is the most important quality I look for.  Otherwise any IT discipline can make good pay and it'll depend on the area/market you are looking for a job.  The key is to learn and move on to another job to keep learning.  If you are at a job doing the same thing your career is going to suffer big time.  My average was about 3 years per job which drove my wife crazy.  Its also where you'll get the big jumps in pay.

3: I would say that web designers pretty much have died out [IMHO and as I started my IT career as one] and you shouldn't spend time with that.

4:  A degree is no guarantee as I look for people who have solid real world experience and can perform under pressure, no degree can provide that.  New college grads would say in an interview...  "Well we did some labs to simulate that".  It'll also depend on the college you get the degree from.  ie a degree from MIT would probboaly be better than most.

5: Documentation will always plague you but can save your a$$ if it hits the fan.

 

GL

 

 

This is all good advise, from someone with the same amount experience (18 yrs) I would emphasize:

 

Never. Stop. Learning.  Ever.

 

In IT, the quickest way to become irrelevant is to quit learning.  You can have the best degree in the world and amazing experiences, but if you aren't continuing to learn and build new experiences, you will be stale after 3 years and stuck after 5 years.  Degrees and internships are *one way* to show you know how to learn.  They don't show whether you will continue to learn.

 

Always be learning.  Every day.  And be able to demonstrate it.

 

[Lurick]

7 hours ago, rokerlykdat said:

1. What are some key issues within our industry? Besides specific jobs being pretty competitive.

2. What jobs are the most demand, least demand? ( Pay isn't a concern, I'm looking for percentiles)
3. What types of studies are a "Trap" or most likely to not get you a career?

4. What are the higher paying jobs at which degree levels, (AA, BA, Masters)
5. Is there any writing involved? (Writing reports and such)

This is all coming from a network engineer who does testing on a daily basis so your mileage may vary

 

1. Security is huge and always growing, programming is becoming much more important as well so don't be afraid to take a couple basic coding classes to have a good foundation.

2. There is a huge blanket that covers this, do you have anything specific in mind in terms of fields? Networking, System Administrator, Consultant, etc.

3. Web Design is the first that comes to mind.

4. Depends on experience and certs more than degree level in my experience.

5. I do "write" reports but it's pretty simple and straight forward. I punch in a couple sentences for every test case that summarizes what happened and then when everything is done use a tool to generate the report from my input. It's nothing complicated and fairly easy, nothing that takes more than a minute or two per test case and nothing like a novel or anything.

 

Tips: Get experience in whatever field you choose, look for internships, do stuff outside of school that relates to your field of study, etc. For example if you love programming then write some code, find projects that you can add value to or write your own scripts to do stuff and post them online for others. Be creative but have something more to bring to the interview than just "I have degree, you hire now!", lol.

 

Edit: Another tip, find something you love to do with a passion and make a living off of it. Whatever that might be, fight your ass off to make a career out of it and stick with it. I'm not going to say that adage "Do what you love and you'll never work a day in your life" because every career has it's up's and downs but overall, if you find a career doing what you enjoy then life will be far better for you in the long run.

[aithos]

13 hours ago, Lurick said:

Depends on the field. I can think of a ton of companies in the networking field that offer this.

 

Ex: VMWare, Cisco, Facebook, Google, Linkedin, Juniper, Microsoft, Apple, Amazon, NetApp, Intel

LOL.  I'm sorry, but no way you're getting an internship at Google without a degree, being enrolled at a well-known program like MIT or having some SERIOUS work to your name (prodigy).  If you're Joe Schmo associates degree with no experience or portfolio then you have literally a 0% chance of landing an internship like that.  

[Lurick]

7 minutes ago, aithos said:

LOL.  I'm sorry, but no way you're getting an internship at Google without a degree, being enrolled at a well-known program like MIT or having some SERIOUS work to your name (prodigy).  If you're Joe Schmo associates degree with no experience or portfolio then you have literally a 0% chance of landing an internship like that.  

And your point is? I listed some companies I knew of that offered internships, I didn't go an investigate every one to see what the requirements are for them all, which is what someone who is seriously interested in getting one would do. With an attitude like that, you definitely have 0% of landing any internship, regardless of the company.

[aithos]

18 hours ago, Lurick said:

And your point is? I listed some companies I knew of that offered internships, I didn't go an investigate every one to see what the requirements are for them all, which is what someone who is seriously interested in getting one would do. With an attitude like that, you definitely have 0% of landing any internship, regardless of the company.

Then you completely missed the point of the conversation, because we were discussing why you need a bachelor's degree in order to get a job.  Which again, is because virtually every single job (entry level or otherwise) will ask for EITHER a bachelor's degree OR on the job experience.  You can't get experience without a bachelor's degree these days, so it's a catch22 until you get one.  

 

Also, I have a 0% desire or need to get an internship because I have been working as a software developer for nearly 7 years and I'm not going to boast because it's pointless, but I've done well for myself.