Which Server CPU to get?

[Mystikage]

I'm building a server/host to run a diskless setup with 30-50 computers/clients. Think of an internet lounge. The client computers are easy but I need help building my server. I'm not sure what system requirements to expect in this case. 

They'll all be Windows 10 64-Bit.

My estimate is 16gb-32gm RAM,

HDD I'm thiking of 4TB HGST Deskstars. 

As for the CPU, many people suggest a core i3? Would that be enough or should I get an i5? or even a Xeon? 

I need to add that these computers will be used for work, internet browsing, music and movies, heavy gaming, and potential video recording as well. So I think each computer client will have their own CPU and GPU. Just no disk. 

Any help would be great! I'm pretty experienced with computers but I'm new to servers specifically. Thank you!

Edited December 22, 2016 by Mystikage

[TLN]

Get a Xeon, old gens are cheaper, yet pretty powerful.

You can easily get 8 core(16 threads) E5-2670 for $80, or older E3-1230 for $150.

 

Depends on how much money you're willing to spend. If you wanna do PCoIP for internet lounge, I'd definately go with E5-2670 Xeon. May be even Dual CPU rig for future upgrades.

[Mystikage]

Thank you for your reply. I need to add that these computers will be used for work, internet browsing, music and movies, heavy gaming, and potential video recording as well. So I think each computer client will have their own CPU and GPU. Just no disk. 

[TLN]

Oh. I though about different use.
If you're planning on gaming and installing a videocard - that's a bit different story. I'd stick with i3 or i5. Whatever you find cheaper

 

I thought that you want to create a server(s), and connect using PCoIP or something like that. In that case you don't even need a PC, and I remember PCoIP monitors on sale for less then $100. That might be a good idea, if you wanna think of it

[Mystikage]

Thank you! I think I'm going with an i5 for a bit of a leeway and future proofing. 

[Electronics Wizardy]

11 hours ago, Mystikage said:

Thank you for your reply. I need to add that these computers will be used for work, internet browsing, music and movies, heavy gaming, and potential video recording as well. So I think each computer client will have their own CPU and GPU. Just no disk. 

Why are you goin diskless on the clients.

 

Id put a small hdd in each, then AD it up so it resets on login(or can pull files for everyuser).

 

Your also gonna need 10gbe network for this to not feel slow.

[tt2468]

Get 32 GB ram. Also get something like an r510 or r520 that has a lot of storage bays. You will need a fast array, especially if you dont want all of your computers to run like snails. You might even want to consider an SSD cache, as lots of users using a spinning drive is a perfect way to slow it down. (because of seek times etc). You shouldn't even consider anything less than a 10Gb uplink from your server to a switch. You can find cheap 10Gb SFP+ cards for $20, and the Quanta LB4M has 2 10Gb ports on it, and is sold on ebay for as low as $50.

[TLN]

Just FYI: there's a bunch of kingston 16gb m2 drives on ebay. I should've receive em shortly. Prefect for boot disks..

In case someone wants take 5 - PM me.

[leadeater]

Why diskless, that's putting a lot of undue strain on a server to do this and network plus overall will actually cost more to fit out an appropriately spec'd server to handle this versus just using HDDs/SSDs in the client workstations.

 

What's your justifications for going diskless and what are you actual requirements? What positive benefits do you think you're getting with diskless?

 

Without knowing the why and your thought processes behind it giving solid advice is going to be difficult.

[Mystikage]

23 hours ago, leadeater said:

Why diskless, that's putting a lot of undue strain on a server to do this and network plus overall will actually cost more to fit out an appropriately spec'd server to handle this versus just using HDDs/SSDs in the client workstations.

 

What's your justifications for going diskless and what are you actual requirements? What positive benefits do you think you're getting with diskless?

 

Without knowing the why and your thought processes behind it giving solid advice is going to be difficult.

 

On 12/22/2016 at 6:18 PM, Electronics Wizardy said:

Why are you goin diskless on the clients.

 

Id put a small hdd in each, then AD it up so it resets on login(or can pull files for everyuser).

 

Your also gonna need 10gbe network for this to not feel slow.

I was thinking that it would be easier to control all 30-50 computers from one computer. i can turn them on or shut them off all at the same time or individually. I can update them or install things on them if I need to, all using the server instead of going to each and every computer one by one to turn them on and off, run updates, install or uninstall programs, etc. All that plus save money on extra HDDs or SSDs in each computer. That was my thinking of it.

[Mystikage]

23 hours ago, leadeater said:

Why diskless, that's putting a lot of undue strain on a server to do this and network plus overall will actually cost more to fit out an appropriately spec'd server to handle this versus just using HDDs/SSDs in the client workstations.

 

What's your justifications for going diskless and what are you actual requirements? What positive benefits do you think you're getting with diskless?

 

Without knowing the why and your thought processes behind it giving solid advice is going to be difficult.

I want to run an internet lounge that provides computers for customers to use. They can do work, business, school, gaming, internet browsing, shopping, etc. My first thought was to set up 50 individual computers and hook them all up into an extremely fast internet connection that can handle all 50 computers. But the problem with this is that I'll have to turn them on one by one when I open, and turn them off one by one when I close. I also have to install the OS, programs, games, drivers, and updates individually which can add up to a huge amount of time. 

So to simplify things  I was thinking of using CCboot to connect all computers to one server so I can control them a lot easier and save a huge amount of time and money. The 50 computers will have to be connected to a server anyways because I want to be able to track customer usage, handle payments, control bandwidth, etc. That was my thought on running a diskless setup. Thank you for any tips and help, I greatly appreciate your time and effort.

[Electronics Wizardy]

8 minutes ago, Mystikage said:

 

I was thinking that it would be easier to control all 30-50 computers from one computer. i can turn them on or shut them off all at the same time or individually. I can update them or install things on them if I need to, all using the server instead of going to each and every computer one by one to turn them on and off, run updates, install or uninstall programs, etc. All that plus save money on extra HDDs or SSDs in each computer. That was my thinking of it.

You can do all of that with AD. Having the HDD on a network server won't make any of this easier.  

 

For money, a basic hdd is about 30 bucks, and probably cheap for 50 systems cheaper than a big server. You will still need a server for ad.

 

 

Also, if you were to go disk less, id go with a thinclient and vdi, no reason to use full systems then.

[Mystikage]

On 12/23/2016 at 0:09 AM, tt2468 said:

Get 32 GB ram. Also get something like an r510 or r520 that has a lot of storage bays. You will need a fast array, especially if you dont want all of your computers to run like snails. You might even want to consider an SSD cache, as lots of users using a spinning drive is a perfect way to slow it down. (because of seek times etc). You shouldn't even consider anything less than a 10Gb uplink from your server to a switch. You can find cheap 10Gb SFP+ cards for $20, and the Quanta LB4M has 2 10Gb ports on it, and is sold on ebay for as low as $50.

Thank you very much, I'll look into it!

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, Mystikage said:

I want to run an internet lounge that provides computers for customers to use. They can do work, business, school, gaming, internet browsing, shopping, etc. My first thought was to set up 50 individual computers and hook them all up into an extremely fast internet connection that can handle all 50 computers. But the problem with this is that I'll have to turn them on one by one when I open, and turn them off one by one when I close. I also have to install the OS, programs, games, drivers, and updates individually which can add up to a huge amount of time. 

So to simplify things  I was thinking of using CCboot to connect all computers to one server so I can control them a lot easier and save a huge amount of time and money. The 50 computers will have to be connected to a server anyways because I want to be able to track customer usage, handle payments, control bandwidth, etc. That was my thought on running a diskless setup. Thank you for any tips and help, I greatly appreciate your time and effort.

Just an FYI I'm going to edit this comment with much more detail since all the points you have supplied can all be addressed without going with a diskless solution, will take a while to write hence this.

 

@Mystikage

 

First off I strongly advise to do some in depth research in to cyber cafe/internet cafe software solutions. Many of the points your raised are addressed with these types of software and are designed exactly for what you want to do. There are many out there some free and others not, all (I think) have a trial so absolutely give those a try.

 

Do a proof of concept with 2 computers, one as the server and one as a client.

 

http://www.mypublicwifi.com/en/index.html

http://www.handycafe.com/features.php

http://www.cybercafepro.com/features.php

http://www.antamedia.com/cafe/

http://www.antamedia.com/cafe

http://www.truecafe.net/index.php

 

I've never used any of these so I can't advise which is best, again do your research and try them out. I'd be interest to hear back on your thoughts on them.

 

Q: But the problem with this is that I'll have to turn them on one by one when I open, and turn them off one by one when I close.

A: Wake on LAN and remote shutdown is the answer for this, almost every cyber cafe software can do this.

 

Q: I also have to install the OS, programs, games, drivers, and updates individually which can add up to a huge amount of time.

A: This will be a multiple part answer and there is more than one way to do this, both fortunately and unfortunately.

 

Operating System Installs

You can do this with the many deployment tools that exist. Most of my experience is with Microsoft tools such as Windows Deployment Services (WDS), Microsoft Deployment Toolkit (MDT) and System Center Configuration Manager (SCCM).

 

I would advise buying a Windows Server 2016 Standard edition license which covers you up to 16 cores (if more you have to buy core pack licenses) and the right to run two virtual instances.

 

Install Windows Server 2016 on the physical server and install the Hyper-V role. Do not use this OS install for anything else only to run Hyper-V and it's VMs, if you do you'll violate the license terms for the setup I'm outlining. Create 3 VMs two being Windows Server 2016 and one Linux: Windows Domain Controller, Windows Deployment Server, Linux Proxy Server.

 

For the Domain Controller (DC) VM that is rather simple, install the OS and then install the DC server role. Plenty of guides on the internet on how to do this but do NOT use .local as the domain even if the guide you are using says so. Happy to help with this if or when the time comes.

 

On the Deployment Server VM install WDS server role + MDT software and Windows Server Updates Services (WSUS) server role. With WDS + MDT you can create a base Windows image and with the extensions that MDT gives you can install drivers and any software you like. WSUS allows you to centrally download and schedule the release of Windows Updates to client computers with the help of the DC and group policies. Again happy to help if or when the time comes.

 

Finally for the Linux VM install which ever distro you like, I personally use Ubuntu Server. Install the Squid package which is a internet/web cache software which you can use to cache game updates and limit the bandwidth a single computer can use (if you need to).

 

 

Summary

So basically in short I would advise against a diskless solution as it has far more areas and likelihood of not working well and causing issues.

 

I have a lot of years experience in managing network systems for customers between 10 PCs to thousands and what I outlined above is some of the key  things we (company I used to work for) would setup. Without these and other systems in place managing large networks simply would not be possible. 

 

Edit: Not all client editions of Windows can join a Windows Domain, make sure if you do plan on using a DC that you have the correct edition. You don't necessarily even need the DC as WDS can function without it and most of the benefits of doing this can be done using the Cyber Cafe software and the Linux Squid server. 

[Mystikage]

On 12/28/2016 at 5:45 PM, leadeater said:

Just an FYI I'm going to edit this comment with much more detail since all the points you have supplied can all be addressed without going with a diskless solution, will take a while to write hence this.

 

@Mystikage

 

First off I strongly advise to do some in depth research in to cyber cafe/internet cafe software solutions. Many of the points your raised are addressed with these types of software and are designed exactly for what you want to do. There are many out there some free and others not, all (I think) have a trial so absolutely give those a try.

 

Do a proof of concept with 2 computers, one as the server and one as a client.

 

http://www.mypublicwifi.com/en/index.html

http://www.handycafe.com/features.php

http://www.cybercafepro.com/features.php

http://www.antamedia.com/cafe/

http://www.antamedia.com/cafe

http://www.truecafe.net/index.php

 

I've never used any of these so I can't advise which is best, again do your research and try them out. I'd be interest to hear back on your thoughts on them.

 

Q: But the problem with this is that I'll have to turn them on one by one when I open, and turn them off one by one when I close.

A: Wake on LAN and remote shutdown is the answer for this, almost every cyber cafe software can do this.

 

Q: I also have to install the OS, programs, games, drivers, and updates individually which can add up to a huge amount of time.

A: This will be a multiple part answer and there is more than one way to do this, both fortunately and unfortunately.

 

Operating System Installs

You can do this with the many deployment tools that exist. Most of my experience is with Microsoft tools such as Windows Deployment Services (WDS), Microsoft Deployment Toolkit (MDT) and System Center Configuration Manager (SCCM).

 

I would advise buying a Windows Server 2016 Standard edition license which covers you up to 16 cores (if more you have to buy core pack licenses) and the right to run two virtual instances.

 

Install Windows Server 2016 on the physical server and install the Hyper-V role. Do not use this OS install for anything else only to run Hyper-V and it's VMs, if you do you'll violate the license terms for the setup I'm outlining. Create 3 VMs two being Windows Server 2016 and one Linux: Windows Domain Controller, Windows Deployment Server, Linux Proxy Server.

 

For the Domain Controller (DC) VM that is rather simple, install the OS and then install the DC server role. Plenty of guides on the internet on how to do this but do NOT use .local as the domain even if the guide you are using says so. Happy to help with this if or when the time comes.

 

On the Deployment Server VM install WDS server role + MDT software and Windows Server Updates Services (WSUS) server role. With WDS + MDT you can create a base Windows image and with the extensions that MDT gives you can install drivers and any software you like. WSUS allows you to centrally download and schedule the release of Windows Updates to client computers with the help of the DC and group policies. Again happy to help if or when the time comes.

 

Finally for the Linux VM install which ever distro you like, I personally use Ubuntu Server. Install the Squid package which is a internet/web cache software which you can use to cache game updates and limit the bandwidth a single computer can use (if you need to).

 

 

Summary

So basically in short I would advise against a diskless solution as it has far more areas and likelihood of not working well and causing issues.

 

I have a lot of years experience in managing network systems for customers between 10 PCs to thousands and what I outlined above is some of the key  things we (company I used to work for) would setup. Without these and other systems in place managing large networks simply would not be possible. 

 

Edit: Not all client editions of Windows can join a Windows Domain, make sure if you do plan on using a DC that you have the correct edition. You don't necessarily even need the DC as WDS can function without it and most of the benefits of doing this can be done using the Cyber Cafe software and the Linux Squid server. 

Thanks a bunch! This will take me some time to go through and check out everything so stay tuned and I'll give an update when I can.

 

Ray

[Mystikage]

On 12/23/2016 at 0:09 AM, tt2468 said:

Get 32 GB ram. Also get something like an r510 or r520 that has a lot of storage bays. You will need a fast array, especially if you dont want all of your computers to run like snails. You might even want to consider an SSD cache, as lots of users using a spinning drive is a perfect way to slow it down. (because of seek times etc). You shouldn't even consider anything less than a 10Gb uplink from your server to a switch. You can find cheap 10Gb SFP+ cards for $20, and the Quanta LB4M has 2 10Gb ports on it, and is sold on ebay for as low as $50.

Thanks! I'll go ahead and do that. I had the Intel I350-T4V2 and thought it would be enough. Do you recon a one-port SFP+ 10GBE card is enough or should I get a dual-port? I read some stuff with 'teaming' and 'aggregation' and wasn't sure if it's necessary.

[leadeater]

1 minute ago, Mystikage said:

Thanks! I'll go ahead and do that. I had the Intel I350-T4V2 and thought it would be enough. Do you recon a one-port SFP+ 10GBE card is enough or should I get a dual-port? I read some stuff with 'teaming' and 'aggregation' and wasn't sure if it's necessary.

That would mostly depend on if you go with diskless or not. The extra port would be handy when talking about 50 1Gbps devices connecting to the server. I would say get a dual port if the price difference is small.

[Mystikage]

5 minutes ago, leadeater said:

That would mostly depend on if you go with diskless or not. The extra port would be handy when talking about 50 1Gbps devices connecting to the server. I would say get a dual port if the price difference is small.

I do trust your judgement and expertise. If you recommend not going diskless then I probably won't. My main concern was being able to manage everything from the server and I didn't know about the other ways that you mentioned. Money is also not too much of an issue, I just don't want to overspend on things I won't need or use but if it's worth it then I will invest. So I'll put the server together and check out the solutions you listed for now.

 

Thanks again!

[Falconevo]

I have quite a bit of experience in this field using Citrix Provisioning Server and Double-Take Flex, Provisioning services has some unique aspects for disk cache offloading which prevent a servers network being overloaded as multiple client access.  Once you get more than 5-6 clients banging at the IO, everyone suffers and believe me they will complain like bitches.

At the end of the day the servers CPU will be doing jack shit this all boils down to how much IO capability you have on the server and bandwidth available to it.

Lets put this in perspective;

 

1Gbit networking provides approximately 110MB/s sequential read/write throughput to a single client.  This is the equivalent of a shit SATA2 7200RPM hard disk.  Now you take the 1Gbit connection and split that between 50 machines, it makes absolutely no difference what disks are in the server.. your bottle neck is due to PXE booting and having a 1GBit remote disk over the network

So, you need to look at this sensibly on the server side first.  

If the client side and server side is 1Gbit/s the maxiumum throughput is approximately 110MB/s disk IO sequentially.  1 client can max this out installing a steam game and then everyone else starts complaining their desktops are running slowly

 

The server side needs to be 4-10GBit/s to handle people continually installing applications etc

4GBit server side can be achieved with an appropriate LACP switch and 4Port Intel PCIe network adapter, this would be bare minimum for this

10GBit will obviously require appropriate switching and network card

 

The biggest problem with having remote disks is WRITE performance, as soon as loads of the clients start writing to disk.. the whole thing starts to crumble.

 

When the machines are barely doing anything, the disk IO will be low.  I have around 300 Machines running on remote boot but i utilise a small 60GB SSD in each machine to offload data writes to the SSD.  They get rebooted once every early morning to clear the 60GB write cache off the disks and reads are simply pulled from the server or cached locally on the SSD.  This is a Citrix technology though, not sure if CCBoot has this at all which is where its likely to be a problem.

 

Do not attempt this on 100M networking, you will suffer greatly lol