To RAID or not to RAID?

[KCmetro]

I am going all internal at the moment, 1x512GB M.2 SSD & 1x3TB HDD.

 

My list:

https://pcpartpicker.com/user/KCmetro/saved/gzTJxr

 

I bought the parts, but before I piece them all together am wondering if I'll be fine with just the 1 WD Red, or if I could get away with a solid RAID setup with 2 WD Reds.

 

I will eventually set up an external RAID/NAS but that'll have to wait (budget).

 

It sounds like the Reds are better used as RAID and basically are put somewhat to waste when not, like with a single Red drive.

[deleted_member_030719]

Why would you raid HDDs when you could buy another SSD?

[Unhelpful]

7 minutes ago, Jed M said:

Why would you raid HDDs when you could buy another SSD?

He never said RAID 0.

 

12 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

I am going all internal at the moment, 1x512GB M.2 SSD & 1x3TB HDD.

 

My list:

https://pcpartpicker.com/user/KCmetro/saved/gzTJxr

 

I bought the parts, but before I piece them all together am wondering if I'll be fine with just the 1 WD Red, or if I could get away with a solid RAID setup with 2 WD Reds.

 

I will eventually set up an external RAID/NAS but that'll have to wait (budget).

 

It sounds like the Reds are better used as RAID and basically are put somewhat to waste when not, like with a single Red drive.

RAID 0? RAID 1? RAID 10? RAID 5? RAID 6? What are you thinking of?

[Ryujin2003]

Here is a good link that explains the WD color scheme and HDD designs. https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Understanding-the-WD-Rainbow-674/

 

Why would you put in M.2 SSD then slow everything down with 5,400 RPM mechanical drives? I would use atleast 7200 RPM drives, or purchase an SSD. I do understand that an SSD will not provide you the same storage solutions as a 3TB HDD. If you require the storage, I'd suggest looking at 7200 RPM.

 

In a desktop scenario, Of course you can RAID WD Reds, a RAID 0 would increase read/write speeds, but increase failure probabilities, while Raid 1 would give your redundancy through mirror.

 

If you are eventually going to set up RAID in a NAS, I would look at RAID 5. I have set up a couple NAS setups for some friends, and RAID 5 has been the most popular choice.

 

You can use any HDDs/SSDs in RAID. Same drive types are best, otherwise, you'll be limited by the slowest device in the RAID.

[leadeater]

Don't mix drive types in a RAID array, this means drive RPM also not just SSD vs HDD.

 

Don't use Reds as single disks, they have non-optimal firmware for that type of usage.

[KCmetro]

10 hours ago, Jed M said:

Why would you raid HDDs when you could buy another SSD?

SSD is still overpriced, considering my budget, my needs for the space and speed, it's more appropriate to run the OS/apps/games drive via SSD and the bulk storage via HDD. Going RAID with both would be great but I'm presently only considering the possibility of maybe going with RAID on the 2+ internal HDDs. If the WD Red is fine as a stand-alone drive, without RAID, then I might just leave it as is and wait 'til I set up an external RAID NAS.

10 hours ago, JoeyDM said:

He never said RAID 0.

 

RAID 0? RAID 1? RAID 10? RAID 5? RAID 6? What are you thinking of?

I haven't decided on RAID type yet, if I will go with RAID at all internally. Since I will eventually go RAID on an external NAS setup, I might not go RAID internally. Or I might, it depends on pros/cons of different RAID options.

10 hours ago, Ryujin2003 said:

Here is a good link that explains the WD color scheme and HDD designs. https://www.pugetsystems.com/labs/articles/Understanding-the-WD-Rainbow-674/

 

Why would you put in M.2 SSD then slow everything down with 5,400 RPM mechanical drives? I would use atleast 7200 RPM drives, or purchase an SSD. I do understand that an SSD will not provide you the same storage solutions as a 3TB HDD. If you require the storage, I'd suggest looking at 7200 RPM.

 

In a desktop scenario, Of course you can RAID WD Reds, a RAID 0 would increase read/write speeds, but increase failure probabilities, while Raid 1 would give your redundancy through mirror.

 

If you are eventually going to set up RAID in a NAS, I would look at RAID 5. I have set up a couple NAS setups for some friends, and RAID 5 has been the most popular choice.

 

You can use any HDDs/SSDs in RAID. Same drive types are best, otherwise, you'll be limited by the slowest device in the RAID.

Comparing... I think it's 4GB/s (?) of the M.2 to the RPMs of the traditional discs doesn't seem like it'll make that much of a difference when comparing M.2 to 5400 and M.2 to 7200. I understand that RAID 5 is slower than the other RAIDs, if talking speed. I used RAID 5 before. I might go with a 10, 01, or something similar this time (if I go RAID at all internally... I still might, it's 50/50 at this point).

3 hours ago, leadeater said:

Don't mix drive types in a RAID array, this means drive RPM also not just SSD vs HDD.

 

Don't use Reds as single disks, they have non-optimal firmware for that type of usage.

I wouldn't mix drive types in RAID. I'm not sure if you're saying don't RAID SSD+HDD but if that's what you mean, there's no way I'd do that. I am not going to RAID SSD+SSD, I don't think it's an option with the motherboard anyway. I might in the future with another board. I am considering RAIDing more than one HDD.

 

Why do you say don't use Reds as single disks? What is "non-optimal firmware for that type of usage"? I already bought 1 Red, so I need to go send it back to the store for another single drive or get 1+ more Red(s) and RAID? I might use a RAID setup, in which case I'll definitely get 1+ more Red(s), but if I do not use the setup, then why would it be a problem using only 1 Red?

[geo3]

Get a back up running before you RAID if you care at all avoiding data loss!  

 

Only 2 drives? No RAID. Back up one to the other on a frequent basis. 

3 drives? RAID1 the main ones and back up on to the 3rd. 

4? Have 2 RAID1 Arrays one backed up to the other.

 

Remember folks, RAID only protects from physical problems with the drive. 

[geo3]

5 hours ago, leadeater said:

Don't use Reds as single disks, they have non-optimal firmware for that type of usage.

Why? What are the negatives? 

[leadeater]

1 hour ago, KCmetro said:

Why do you say don't use Reds as single disks? What is "non-optimal firmware for that type of usage"? I already bought 1 Red, so I need to go send it back to the store for another single drive or get 1+ more Red(s) and RAID? I might use a RAID setup, in which case I'll definitely get 1+ more Red(s), but if I do not use the setup, then why would it be a problem using only 1 Red?

If you already have the disk then it's fine, wouldn't go through the hassle of sending it back.

 

As for the firmware on the disk this relates to Time Limited Error Recovery (TLER). If the disk encounters a read error it will give up within 9 seconds ensuring the disk is not improperly marked as failed. Problem with that is the reason to do so is so the RAID controller can get the block of data from a different disk in the array, single disk there isn't another one to get if from so this will result in an I/O error being passed to the OS.

 

When disks are used as stand alone you don't want TLER you want them to keep trying basically forever since it may actually be able to successfully read the data block but it might take 30 seconds to do so. WD Blues and Blacks don't have TLER, these are intended to be used as single disks. Biggest reason really is the cost as you gain nothing extra buying a Red for single use.

[KCmetro]

It's a bit frustrating that the Red is really intended for RAID and not non-RAID use, considering that "TLER" feature.

 

If I decide to go ahead and get 1+ more Reds, I'm wondering if it'll be worth also replacing the 5400RPM with 7200RPM.

 

Also, if I go RAID, can I do hard RAID with the motherboard I bought?

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/LsX2FT/asus-motherboard-z170pro

 

Or would I have to do soft RAID (like via mdadm)?

 

I did soft raid before, it was fine I guess, but I never really had the opportunity (fortunately) to deal with dead drives in the RAID, although the OS drive is the lone disk that ended up dying, and it wasn't in the array.

 

If I proceed with this, I'd prefer hard raid if possible.

[KCmetro]

Also if I go with a RAID setup, how do I know which one to use? I had a few HDDs in my last computer with a RAID 5 setup, but I don't want to do that again. Is RAID 10 better? Another one better than that? If I end up getting more Reds, I don't know yet how many total. It's more $$$ each time, and I am getting an external NAS setup in future, so if I go with RAID here I'll stick with a low # of HDDs.

[Ryujin2003]

I use RAID 0 in my desktop. I don't use my pc for multimedia, so any redundancy isn't needed. I RAID 0 my SSD's and back up to an HDD. I also have 1TB HDD for mass storage.

 

The type of RAID will depend on your usage. I RAID 0 for the increased bandwidth and faster read/write times.

 

Why do you want RAID? What will you be using your HDDs for?

[SCHISCHKA]

3 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

Also if I go with a RAID setup, how do I know which one to use?

Raid1 for two drives on a system which must run 24/7 uninterrupted.

Raid0 for performance

Raid 1+0 for a both ^ and all the other RAID levels have differing benefits of speed, redundancy, and price.

Throw your drives in RAID0. RAID1 does nothing for a desktop computer except increase the cost, it is not a substitute for backup. Also the other WD drives are just as good as red in raid0

7 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

If I decide to go ahead and get 1+ more Reds, I'm wondering if it'll be worth also replacing the 5400RPM with 7200RPM.

 

that would be the red pro which costs a bit more but also has a better warranty.

8 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

It's a bit frustrating that the Red is really intended for RAID and not non-RAID use, considering that "TLER" feature.

 

that is what the reds are for. you are looking for blue or black.

 

 

 

 

[KCmetro]

17 minutes ago, Ryujin2003 said:

I use RAID 0 in my desktop. I don't use my pc for multimedia, so any redundancy isn't needed. I RAID 0 my SSD's and back up to an HDD. I also have 1TB HDD for mass storage.

 

The type of RAID will depend on your usage. I RAID 0 for the increased bandwidth and faster read/write times.

 

Why do you want RAID? What will you be using your HDDs for?

Previously, I used RAID for protection of data if a drive died. How much of a difference in read/write IOPS is there with RAID 0?

 

15 minutes ago, SCHISCHKA said:

Raid1 for two drives on a system which must run 24/7 uninterrupted.

Raid0 for performance

Raid 1+0 for a both ^ and all the other RAID levels have differing benefits of speed, redundancy, and price.

Throw your drives in RAID0. RAID1 does nothing for a desktop computer except increase the cost, it is not a substitute for backup. Also the other WD drives are just as good as red in raid0

that would be the red pro which costs a bit more but also has a better warranty.

that is what the reds are for. you are looking for blue or black.

 

 

 

 

Why does Raid 1 have to be on 24/7? What would happen if a setup using it (say it's not a desktop computer) had a power outage without UPS/etc.?

 

I'd/I'll go for blue or black if/when I decide to not use RAID, but really can't Reds be used for non-RAID?

 

It looks like RAID 0 works fine with only 2 drives, so if I go ahead and also use that, I might just get 1 more Red, basically an exact duplicate of the one I have now.

 

The big question at that point is what the motherboard's capable of.

https://pcpartpicker.com/product/LsX2FT/asus-motherboard-z170pro

 

I can see the advantage to just using RAID 0 for speed/bandwidth in the desktop computer, while using other RAID options outside of that via NAS.

[KCmetro]

Another quick question... if I have two 3TB HDDs with RAID 0, do I get to use all 6TB or only 3TB?

[SCHISCHKA]

3 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

Why does Raid 1 have to be on 24/7? What would happen if a setup using it (say it's not a desktop computer) had a power outage without UPS/etc.?

 

it is for uninterrupted service, so if a drive dies you can hot swap it and never loose what ever service you are providing. absolutely useless on a desktop without hot swap bays. If you had a power outage the same effect will be noticed on both drives; this is why RAID1 is not backup.

5 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

I'd/I'll go for blue or black if/when I decide to not use RAID, but really can't Reds be used for non-RAID?

 

you can use them but for the price you'd be better off returning and get a black.

5 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

It looks like RAID 0 works fine with only 2 drives, so if I go ahead and also use that, I might just get 1 more Red, basically an exact duplicate of the one I have now.

 

I use RAID0 on three drives. Its awesome, almost as fast as a SSD

2 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

Another quick question... if I have two 3TB HDDs with RAID 0, do I get to use all 6TB or only 3TB?

All 6TB minus the overhead of the filesystem

[SCHISCHKA]

1 minute ago, SCHISCHKA said:

I use RAID0 on three drives. Its awesome, almost as fast as a SSD

4 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

I should mention I'm using software raid so I can do this. Motherboards do seem to be restricted to pairing drives for raid0

[KCmetro]

3 minutes ago, SCHISCHKA said:

it is for uninterrupted service, so if a drive dies you can hot swap it and never loose what ever service you are providing. absolutely useless on a desktop without hot swap bays. If you had a power outage the same effect will be noticed on both drives; this is why RAID1 is not backup.

you can use them but for the price you'd be better off returning and get a black.

I use RAID0 on three drives. Its awesome, almost as fast as a SSD

All 6TB minus the overhead of the filesystem

So basically if, say I have RAID 1 (or 10 or another *1*) with a NAS setup and power goes out, I have to rely on separate backups to then re-copy everything over onto the NAS when power comes back up?

 

1 minute ago, SCHISCHKA said:

I should mention I'm using software raid so I can do this. Motherboards do seem to be restricted to pairing drives for raid0

Do you mean you have to use softraid because of 3 drives instead of 2?

What if using 4?

Would 4 drives RAID 0 be faster than 2 drives RAID 0?

[SCHISCHKA]

22 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

So basically if, say I have RAID 1 (or 10 or another *1*) with a NAS setup and power goes out, I have to rely on separate backups to then re-copy everything over onto the NAS when power comes back up?

 

possibly. there are some pretty neat filesystems with super powers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journaling_file_system

24 minutes ago, KCmetro said:

Would 4 drives RAID 0 be faster than 2 drives RAID 0?

I think the benefits of RAID0 hit their peak at 3 or 4 disks and then do not get much better in price/performance. here is a good article http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=btrfs-raid015610-linux41&num=1

 

 

 

 

[KCmetro]

Those benchmarks show 4 disk RAID 0 as getting close to 2x better than 2 disk RAID 0 (and the 4 disk version is the best of all of them).

 

Okay now I'm considering either:

 

2x3TB RAID 0

or

4x2TB RAID 0 (unless 3TB Reds are inexpensive enough)

[leadeater]

4 hours ago, SCHISCHKA said:

I use RAID0 on three drives. Its awesome, almost as fast as a SSD

I ran 4x WD VelociRaptors in RAID 0 back when SSDs were first coming out, that setup was wayy faster than SSDs back then and even today for seq read/write a tiny bit faster too (for SATA SSDs).

 

@KCmetro make sure anything important is backed up when using RAID 0 or easily reacquired, I only ever put my steam library on an array with no protection and still do even now but on SSDs.

[SCHISCHKA]

4 hours ago, KCmetro said:

Those benchmarks show 4 disk RAID 0 as getting close to 2x better than 2 disk RAID 0 (and the 4 disk version is the best of all of them).

 

Okay now I'm considering either:

 

2x3TB RAID 0

or

4x2TB RAID 0 (unless 3TB Reds are inexpensive enough)

BTW; more drives = longer access time.

You do not need red drives for RAID0. Blacks work just as good unless your doing to use them in redundancy later

[KCmetro]

Do Reds in RAID 0 use TLER?

[Ryujin2003]

7 hours ago, KCmetro said:

Previously, I used RAID for protection of data if a drive died. How much of a difference in read/write IOPS is there with RAID 0?

I will give you my speed tests when it home from school. I'll give you Seagate HDD, OCZ SSD, and RAID 0 PNY 1311.

 

It helps a lot with decreased game load times and regular feel of the OS.

[KCmetro]

I'm not sure what to put on what just yet.

1x512GB M.2 SSD.

1x(or 2x)3TB(or 4TB) WD Red HHD(s).

I'll run Windows and Linux.

Windows only for gaming.

Linux for everything else.

Any recommendations on partitioning the drives out, divvying up the space on SSD & HDD(s) to the Windows and Linux systems, and the games, apps, etc.?