If students had guns would the 'terrorist' have been shot dead in under a minute?

[SansVarnic]

11 minutes ago, stconquest said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessions_of_an_Economic_Hit_Man

<snip>
— November 4, 2004 interview

I always wished the CIA no longer existed for this reason. 

[stconquest]

32 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

I always wished the CIA no longer existed for this reason. 

To be fair, it is not a knock on the US government, as most elected members have nothing to do with this shit.  It is more a knock on the pretense of law when there is none.  A two or three tiered justice system just makes things go really bad.

 

"Law and Order" type rhetoric kills me.

 

I have been watching a lot of the Standing Rock stuff... no real law and order there.  Police are doing as they please.  I have yet to see a single video of a "protector" commiting an act of violence.

 

I have seen an ETP employee get caught trying to infiltrate the protesting group, and being armed.  Indian authorities arrested him, got all his IDs and shit... too funny.

 

 

[SansVarnic]

50 minutes ago, stconquest said:

To be fair, it is not a knock on the US government, as most elected members have nothing to do with this shit.  It is more a knock on the pretense of law when there is none.  A two or three tiered justice system just makes things go really bad.

 

"Law and Order" type rhetoric kills me.

 

I have been watching a lot of the Standing Rock stuff... no real law and order there.  Police are doing as they please.  I have yet to see a single video of a "protector" commiting an act of violence.

 

I have seen an ETP employee get caught trying to infiltrate the protesting group, and being armed.  Indian authorities arrested him, got all his IDs and shit... too funny.

 

 

Pretty nice camp. I don't think I have watched Standing rock before but then again I am working a lot so I don't get much time to watch much these days. (had to take on a second job with the post office ... not really all that fun)

I understand though, even though I want the CIA closed its for good reason at this point as it is now redundant since we have the Dept of Homeland Defense the CIA had it's use back when it was needed at its inception but now its a bygone era in my eyes. *shrugs*

 

*edit

When I was still in my unit, we did some work up in South Dakota that helped out the Lakota tribe a few years ago, they are some pretty cool people. I guess it helps that I am part Apache though lol.... we got along pretty well.

(if you see my picture on my profile page you cant tell really that I am part Apache, its thinned out a bit but I am 1/8 give er take.)

[Jovidah]

1 hour ago, SansVarnic said:

I wasn't being selectively exclusive hence the added etc. it was just the start of a very very long list. If you like I can start way back in the 1780's ... Tripoli, Gibraltar .........

invasions my arse we were asked to get involved in at least more than half of those.

Well most of the times when you were 'asked' to get involved that was really just  you working behind to scenes to make sure some local did. Let's face it. Vietnam wasn't about 'securing freedom', it was about containment of China.  Grenada was all about stopping a spread of Cuban influence. Panama was all about making sure the Panama canal wouldn't be nationalized. And the coups? Those were all of elected governments. The US has been one of the biggest threats to democratically elected regimes in the 20th century. All the meddling in central America in the early 20th century was all about securing business interests.

Most of the time, the US really only did something if it overlapped with their own interests. It only ever protected democracies when those democracies were friendly to them; if they weren't it never had any qualms about knocking them over. So yeah... for a lot of countries, the US has at times been a threat (even when they themselves weren't).

 

Now I'll freely admit that the US isn't a kingsize North Korea on steroids that only does bad. The US has showed moments of remarkable leadership when it was clearly trying to do good. WW2 is the best example of this, and I think the interventions in Bosnia and Kosovo are also shining examples. Desert Storm - even when oil obviously was a factor - was likewise a justified effort, and notwithstanding the miserable outcome I think the intervention in Libya really was a well-intended effort within the R2P framework.

 

But that doesn't mean all the missteps can all so easily be forgotten.

Quote

 

How they turned out is admittedly unfortunate but still the truth is the world relies to much in the US to fight wars/skirmishes they themselves would rather not fight themselves or cannot.

 

I do agree there is a glaring lack of leadership in trying to prevent the humanitarian disasters we've seen over and over again when the world sits by watching just another conflict no one cares about. Europe watched for years as Yugoslavia tore itself apart. Same goes for Syria.

My criticism though is not for the few well-intended cases that ended bad (with Libya being the best example of that). My criticism is for all the cases when it went out of its way to invade a third world country or knock over a democratically elected regime. Or when it really made a bad situation a lot worse (Iraq 2003). The whole problem with jihadi extremists would have been over for years if it hadn't been for that invasion.

And yes I'm fully aware it's not alone in that; France and UK also continue to play neocolonial powerbroker. But that doesn't make it right.

Just don't go around claiming that you're not a threat to anyone... when there are too many countries who have good reasons to feel differently.

Quote

And if we at first decline to then its all like screw you US and your higher than though attitude for not helping us... yeah I have heard this and more over and over. It sucks having the worlds strongest military but it also sucks that we have a government that has us bent over the way they do and the people do not realize it just like Britain and their soon to be police state ...he US is not far behind. 

I agree there's no pleasing everyone. I do think though that it would have been possible to please far more people with just a few different strategic decisions. Especially in the last 15 years.

Quote

The US gets hate on the most because we have guns oh for the sake of saneness that is the last thing people should worry about. Matter fact the reason Imperial Japan did not attempt direct attack against mainland US is for that factor amongst others.

The main thing holding them back was logistics (it's a pretty damn big ocean); they couldn't even keep a handful of troops on the Aleutian islands supplied. Second... well after the battle of midway it was quite obvious they weren't going to gain the naval control required for any invasion. 

Quote

The US is not with out its own issues but the rest of the world is just in the same state we are. He who is without sin throw the first stone ... Please spare me the rhetoric.

For good reason, but its not just for Europeans, we will stand for anyone who asks for help anytime. It is a fundamental thing we believe in doing and we get hung for it all the time. I wont apologize for being the way I am, for being American because what really means isn't what it people see it today. I stand for what the Founding fathers stood for.

And for the record the US has been at constant state of war with Muslims since the incident at Tripoli just encase some wants to point that one out.

 

Well... no.. the US (nor any other country) stands for anyone who asks. It only stands for those who ask who have something to offer.

Routinely the governments have shown that even if the government asks, it prefers to deal with corrupt dictators. Neither does it really stand up to other countries for their actions unless it feels its own interests are threatened. It fully supported the 2006 invasion of Somalia by Ethiopia even though it tore apart the best chance for a legitimate functioning Somali government in 20 years. It's unlimited support for Israel, regardless of what it does or who it invades (it essentially wrecked Lebanon... several times), is the main reason that conflict still exists. 

 

Sure, the US occasionally does some good things but please spare me the high and mighty idealism talk. The overriding principle of US foreign policy has always been their own interest & power. Idealistic efforts and R2P-like interventions have really been the exception rather than the norm. Now I'm no hater of the US. Over here we've mostly been on the receiving end of some of the good things the US has done. But to just claim the record is all clean and all intentions were always good is just ludicrous.

 

Now about US-Muslim relations... there's no such concept. The only ones talking about Muslims as one group are Muslim radicals and Western writers with either an agenda or a complete lack of grasp on basic social concepts (Huntington?!).  About specific regimes... well it's really a mixed bag. It has had very good relations with a lot of regimes in muslim-majority countries (think Gulf states, Pakistan, Indonesia). Sadly it often found itself supporting these regimes against their own people, which is one of the main reasons that policy backfired and turned into the mess we have now.

If you go further back (19th century) I really don't think there were much relations with the exception of the few clashes with the Barbary states.

 

 

[Jovidah]

Okay that got awfully long. I can kind of see where you're coming from. Most people tend to talk in black & whites and claim the US is nothing but black. I can understand why that pushes you to claim it's white. My main point is that it's more...grey. I can live with light grey.

For all it flaws I do suppose the US is still the best candidate for the top power though. Europe has seriously dissapointed in the last 5 years - completely throwing all principles, idealism, international laws & norms out of the window when the going got a bit more though. Russia & China... well... they tend to make the US look like a nun. They don't even have any regard for their own citizens.

[SansVarnic]

6 minutes ago, Jovidah said:

<snip>

 

Well said. I don't think I could have put it better really.

One thing I cant stand is this constant dissent on Americans and clumping us altogether in one mindset when we as a people are clearly not all of the same mindset. There are those (such as myself) that stand out for instance don't like what has become of the vision the US was to become. Big government, overbearing military might.... I am not libertarian or anything but there is point where we have gotten to big for our own britches and need to pull back and re-evaluate ourselves as a country. Honestly in some ways I yearn for day that would be similar to the US of pre-WW2. Granted we really were isolationist but we are the polar opposite of isolationist-ism that @killcomic makes us out to be, I mean how in the world can a country as involved as we are be isolationist (rhetorical question). 

 

I would like many things to change here politically especially a reversal of the last 50-60+ years of legislation but as it is I am still happy to be here than anywhere else and if I had to chose another place to live ... maybe Canada. I am pretty much set on living in North America and far as I see (and I know I will catch ton of flack for this) but I see the US and Canada as virtually similar. We are all Americans really.Not really sure why US citizens are the only ones that get called American's.... eh oh well. Now I am rambling.

 

9 minutes ago, Jovidah said:

Okay that got awfully long. I can kind of see where you're coming from. Most people tend to talk in black & whites and claim the US is nothing but black. I can understand why that pushes you to claim it's white. My main point is that it's more...grey. I can live with light grey.

For all it flaws I do suppose the US is still the best candidate for the top power though. Europe has seriously dissapointed in the last 5 years - completely throwing all principles, idealism, international laws & norms out of the window when the going got a bit more though. Russia & China... well... they tend to make the US look like a nun. They don't even have any regard for their own citizens.

Agreed. Grey it is.

[Velvet Revolver]

3 hours ago, Alir said:

 

What if the terrorist murdered everyone in the school but got away with it because he was 'mentally ill'?

That can happen its called NCR not criminally responsible, there are always cases like that. Recently a multiple murder got off, but i have my suspicions because the univercity students father was a high ranking pig. But he did hire the best damn lawyer in town, spot-light media type high priced lawyer. If I remember it was Belfour Der who defended a drunk driver who killed an entire family some Christmases ago. Oh and another spotlight news story, a couple cases of murderers getting off on the 40 month rule, need a conviction within 40 months or they get off. See the judicial systems lacks qualified employee's to prosecute in a timely manner.

Would any of these ever happen in the USA, nope. To the needle you go....... in 35 yrs or so. Even then sometimes they die a cruel and unusual death. And the authorities do nothing about it. Keep the money machine gravy train going, employing shit loads of people.

[SansVarnic]

6 minutes ago, Velvet Revolver said:

To the needle you go....... in 35 yrs or so.

Lose the needle, public hangings need to be brought back. Used to be a fair deterrent to criminals. But its to inhumane of course.

Sorry but dead is dead.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Velvet Revolver]

 

Naaaaa lets just stone them to death. Its cheaper. Or water board them and take off their fingernails.

 

13 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

Lose the needle, public hangings need to be brought back. Used to be a fair deterrent to criminals. But its to inhumane of course.

Sorry but dead is dead.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

 

[Jovidah]

1 hour ago, SansVarnic said:

Well said. I don't think I could have put it better really.

One thing I cant stand is this constant dissent on Americans and clumping us altogether in one mindset when we as a people are clearly not all of the same mindset.

Well to be fair it's something we're hardwired to do psychologically. Simplify into basic groups and classify them unidimensionally (identifying by only 1 group-membership we deem most important). It sucks but pretty much everyone does it.

But it's at the root of a lot of problems, and sadly still at the basis of a lot of policy.

There's a great book on this; Identity & Violence by Amartya Sen. Essentially a lot of the (ethnic) violence you see results from overfocus on a certain cleavage / difference between groups while forgetting about all the commonalities.  The whole concept of nationalism really relies on this selective amnesia and mental lazyness.

1 hour ago, SansVarnic said:

 

There are those (such as myself) that stand out for instance don't like what has become of the vision the US was to become. Big government, overbearing military might.... I am not libertarian or anything but there is point where we have gotten to big for our own britches and need to pull back and re-evaluate ourselves as a country. Honestly in some ways I yearn for day that would be similar to the US of pre-WW2. Granted we really were isolationist but we are the polar opposite of isolationist-ism that @killcomic makes us out to be, I mean how in the world can a country as involved as we are be isolationist (rhetorical question). 

I honestly don't really know where the US should go from here. In a way it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle. I can sympathize with the longing for the older ways, but I'm not sure whether they're still applicable. You can try to withdraw from the world but I'm not sure how feasible that is given how the runaway train of globalization will just keep going. It's happening whether you like it or not, so you have to deal with it somehow.

 

The only real example I can think of that was very isolationist in the past was China. It really didn't do them any good. Even though they were ahead of the west for most of history in scientific & civic development, the isolation and xenophobia caused them to fall behind and become dominated by the western powers. 

A withdrawing US might very well simply fall behind, diminish & impoverish. I'd also worry about who'd step in to fill the vaccuum and what kind of world that'd leave us with. So I doubt it's good for anyone.

That being said I do agree it has to figure out the right solution to that balancing act.

 

 

1 hour ago, SansVarnic said:

 

I would like many things to change here politically especially a reversal of the last 50-60+ years of legislation but as it is I am still happy to be here than anywhere else and if I had to chose another place to live ... maybe Canada. I am pretty much set on living in North America and far as I see (and I know I will catch ton of flack for this) but I see the US and Canada as virtually similar. We are all Americans really.Not really sure why US citizens are the only ones that get called American's.... eh oh well. Now I am rambling.

 

 

I guess for most of us in the internet generation, the differences between the populations of any of the western countries really aren't that big. A lot of us really just consume the same media, same pop culture, communicate in the same language, etc. I'd dare say that 'people under 30' from different western countries have more in common, than the younger and older generations within the same country.

That's probably also why you see this huge disconnect in some of the recent elections. Brexit was really something only the older generations wanted. All the younger generations are on board with the globalization stuff, a more connected Europe, etc. 

1 hour ago, SansVarnic said:

Lose the needle, public hangings need to be brought back. Used to be a fair deterrent to criminals. But its to inhumane of course.

Sorry but dead is dead.  ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Although admittedly I don't have any data to back this up (I'm no expert in criminology) I really doubt the death penalty (or any other harsh punishment) is a good deterrent. The problem is that most people comitting a crime aren't calculating whether advantage gained from the crime is worth the measurement of the punishment. Generally they just think they'll get away with it, won't get caught, and evade the punishment altogether. 

People generally tend to think 'that won't happen to me'.

 

It's entirely worthless in cases of political / ideological violence committed by idealists who are willing to sacrifice for their cause...

It does work wonders in stemming recidivism though.

 

Resorting to torture and that kind of thing? Only galvanizes the resistance. It's been tried. It ruins your counterinsurgency effort. Doing it on your own population only undermines the legitimacy of your government.

[HughMungusCynicalAnarch]

On 11/29/2016 at 11:59 PM, Velvet Revolver said:

Founded on loading one rock into a barrel that took 5 minutes to load. LOL times have changed man. Its an obsolete fucking law, that pro gunners will use till their dying day. which will be by a bullet more likely then not.

 

I hope Trump is man enough to do something about it. After Obama care.

Another ignorant anti gun imbecile.

they had the air rifle 

they had puckle guns

harmonica rifles 

early metal casing rifles 

citizens owned fucking cannons 

rifled guns 

 

those were the "assault weapons" of The day and they knew we'd advance. So bullshit. And self defense and self reliance will never become obsolete.

[HughMungusCynicalAnarch]

On 11/30/2016 at 0:01 AM, stconquest said:

What militia are do you regularly train with?

This dumbass argument again.

One there's a comma, two the federalist papers and writings of the founding fathers reaffirm the right for individuals to own firearms And ordinance, three well regulated meant in good order, four it means you need guns in order to be in the militia not that you need to be in the militia to be able to own guns and five militia means all able bodied men 18 to 45(that's actually the law) so either way your point is beyond retarded.

[HughMungusCynicalAnarch]

On 11/30/2016 at 0:40 AM, killcomic said:

It's hard to kill an entire classroom with a knife as opposed to a gun. Guns are long range, rapid fire weapons. To say that a knife, or even a sword, can have the same effect is a fallacy. Ever heard the saying "Never bring a knife to a gun fight"?

There's a reason why the USA has high number of mass shootings, because they are shootings. it's an easy weapon to carry and use when in a disturbed mental state. You don't need much co-ordination or physical strength.

 

Interesting.

because a guy in Daegu in spith Korea killed 192 people with gas and matches.

[killcomic]

Just now, HughMungusCynicalAnarch said:

Interesting.

because a guy in Daegu in spith Korea killed 192 people with gas and matches.

Right, therefore guns for everyone. Please show me the example of such attacks occurring with the same frequency as mass shootings.

[HughMungusCynicalAnarch]

5 minutes ago, killcomic said:

Right, therefore guns for everyone. Please show me the example of such attacks occurring with the same frequency as mass shootings.

Does it matter? It happened once and it killed more people than the Paris shooters and almost 4 times as much as the Orlando shooter. Take away guns and you get mass arson or mass bombing, hell those two things are already better than guns.

that was just a response to your dumbass statement that it's always guns that aren't used for mass murder.

[stconquest]

3 hours ago, HughMungusCynicalAnarch said:

This dumbass argument again.

One there's a comma, two the federalist papers and writings of the founding fathers reaffirm the right for individuals to own firearms And ordinance, three well regulated meant in good order, four it means you need guns in order to be in the militia not that you need to be in the militia to be able to own guns and five militia means all able bodied men 18 to 45(that's actually the law) so either way your point is beyond retarded.

Try this argument:  Change your law.

[Praesi]

16 hours ago, SansVarnic said:

I know but that doesn't mean we are though. As I stated we are no threat to the world - disclaimer we are a threat if you are stupid enough to challenge us ... I.E. 1910 Germany, 1940's Nazi Germany, 1940's Japan, etc...

USA is rogue state number 1.

[CantThinkOfAUserName]

14 minutes ago, stconquest said:

Try this argument:  Change your law.

That's not a arguement

[Velvet Revolver]

The American militia is a whole other story.

 

[Alir]

20 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Contrary to what people think from Hollywood movies, being declared "mentally unfit" during a trial does NOT get you off Scott-free. You end up being admitted into a mental health facility, where you are under constant guard, probably locked in isolation, and are given heavy doses of drugs to keep you and those around you safe from physical harm.

 

He would have essentially went to "crazy prison" instead of "regular prison".

 

Furthermore, if at a later date, he was deemed "cured" of his mental illness, he would go back to trial and likely would end up in regular prison anyway.

 

So no. Even if he was "mentally ill", he would not "get away with it". That's an absurd notion.

Unless he white.

[Alir]

20 hours ago, dalekphalm said:

Contrary to what people think from Hollywood movies, being declared "mentally unfit" during a trial does NOT get you off Scott-free. You end up being admitted into a mental health facility, where you are under constant guard, probably locked in isolation, and are given heavy doses of drugs to keep you and those around you safe from physical harm.

 

He would have essentially went to "crazy prison" instead of "regular prison".

 

Furthermore, if at a later date, he was deemed "cured" of his mental illness, he would go back to trial and likely would end up in regular prison anyway.

 

So no. Even if he was "mentally ill", he would not "get away with it". That's an absurd notion.

My joke was in reference to the European (all colonies included) "justice" system and the media for excusing white people and especially cops and soldiers for being "scared for their life" or "mentally ill" or some other crap like that when they kill people or commit an act of brutality. I rarely watch movies.

[Velvet Revolver]

There was a crazy dude that beheaded a man on the Greyhound bus in Saskatchewan. He is walking free today.

Karla Humalka Ontario serial killer = Walking free today

Charles Ing - Caught in a Canadian Hudsons Bay department store, trial cost California $20M still on death row, since 1999.

 

[Alir]

17 hours ago, Velvet Revolver said:

That can happen its called NCR not criminally responsible, there are always cases like that. Recently a multiple murder got off, but i have my suspicions because the univercity students father was a high ranking pig. But he did hire the best damn lawyer in town, spot-light media type high priced lawyer. If I remember it was Belfour Der who defended a drunk driver who killed an entire family some Christmases ago. Oh and another spotlight news story, a couple cases of murderers getting off on the 40 month rule, need a conviction within 40 months or they get off. See the judicial systems lacks qualified employee's to prosecute in a timely manner.

Would any of these ever happen in the USA, nope. To the needle you go....... in 35 yrs or so. Even then sometimes they die a cruel and unusual death. And the authorities do nothing about it. Keep the money machine gravy train going, employing shit loads of people.

 

Please refer to my last post.

[Velvet Revolver]

All the pigs gotta do is claim he "thought" he saw a gun. Then its way harder for the cop to lose his job, lose his pension or go to prison.

Piggies are highly trained as they have been to countless court cases, they know the right words to say.

Add to that equation, they are the biggest gang in the world. They protect their own. They consist of the prosecution, judges, "experts", police.

However on the news now, there is judge about to be disbarred, claiming the woman was asking to be raped. They all have this attitude of being above the law and untouchable. Each and every one of them. It doesnt matter what country they are in. That is why they are the most dangerous gang in the world and the biggest gang in the world.

[killcomic]

8 hours ago, HughMungusCynicalAnarch said:

Does it matter? It happened once and it killed more people than the Paris shooters and almost 4 times as much as the Orlando shooter. Take away guns and you get mass arson or mass bombing, hell those two things are already better than guns.

that was just a response to your dumbass statement that it's always guns that aren't used for mass murder.

 Yes, it does matter. It takes quite a bit of expertise to carry out a bomb or gas attack. You can't bomb or gas people in a moment of rage, but you can shoot them. Guns are easy to manipulate and any Tom, Dick and Harry can use one, on the other hand, you need to have know quite a bit of chemistry and containment to carry out a bomb or gas attack.

And please, there's no need to use insults. I have not insulted you and you are attacking me personally. It says a lot more about you than it does about me.