If students had guns would the 'terrorist' have been shot dead in under a minute?

[RocketFarmer]

<deleted>

Edited November 30, 2016 by RocketFarmer
Formatting

[SansVarnic]

Let me quote myself here.

 

On 12/2/2015 at 8:03 PM, SansVarnic said:

One point here I keep seeing is the mental argument which is a fine line argument.

Say Joe is a gun owner for 30 years with a known sane mentality suddenly he flips and goes mental shoots up something for no reason, then all of a sudden every body is how the heel did he get a gun was mental for pete's sake.

Man I hate that

 

On 12/2/2015 at 8:38 PM, SansVarnic said:

when a gun is used there is generally thought put into the 'how" the crime will be done. You don't just pick up gun and go on a shooting spree; planning is made on the part of the shooter. Most of the mass shooting of late have been done with illegally obtained weapons, not something done on a whim.

 

Previous version of this argument.

Another version of this argument.

Another quote from me.

 

On 1/21/2016 at 4:33 AM, SansVarnic said:

That's why I added the last link (quote with the spoiler). The listed states still utilize the Brady law (not necessarily enforced) but the FBI NICs data base is what essentially replaced the Brady law in respect to background checks.

 

Either way by having this discussion with me the OP topic has been derailed. I do not wish to continue this as the point has been made over a dozen times in this forum in the last 6 months in multiple threads. Arguing with me the finer points of the NICs and other background checks system for each state and the laws the at back them up is pointless atm. I may work in law enforce (so I have to know a certain amount of the law to enforce it) but I cannot know every states law specifically other than my own. Respectfully I know the blanket portions and refer to those when I speak of them. Unfortunately for you and I we arguing the same thing, I apologize if I generalized things to much for to go along with but my original answer for the person that made the average Joe statement works. It some up the majority of legal firearms purchases in the US and anything more specific state to state can be referenced to individually.

 

Besides I summed this entire thread and any other gun conversation in other posts a little while ago. See my link below (I put in a spoiler as it is long)

I'll leave it be at that and let a mod lock this if they feel the need to.

 

http://linustechtips.com/main/topic/497792-should-america-ban-guns/page-13

 

Spoiler

SansVarnic, on 06 Dec 2015 - 1:51 PM, said:

Here is the thing.

America is unable to place a ban on guns period. The constitution in it current form prevents this.

The debate on a gun ban is not pointless but essentially a waste of time for the most part. The time, the undertaking, the massive amount of cooperation it will take to accomplish a goal of changing the constitution is tremendous not to mention nearly impossible in today's politics. The process to change or add an amendment takes about 4-7 years but cannot exceed 7 years or the process is considered null by law and must be restarted.

Please read the spoiler or click the following link; https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/constitution/

 

Hidden Content

 

 

Oh there is more. IIRK there is at least 6 different conversations I took part in on this forum last year about this same issue. Firearms. Guns ... oh it never ends. One in July, August, September & December. I cant remember all of them but if you search hard enough you can find them.

 

 

 

[SansVarnic]

8 minutes ago, RocketFarmer said:

<snip>

Please fix your formatting.

[killcomic]

26 minutes ago, CantThinkOfAUserName said:

Wasnt arguing that, just that if people want to bad enough theyll grab what they can to do the dead. Still think guns are awesome, and that high capacity mags and clips are cool for things other then killing a bunch of people. Fail to see how the majority should be punished for the minority. 

Guns are not toys, they are tools built and design for a specific purpose and they should be treated as such. There's a reason why most civilised countries place regulations on gun ownership. 

[killcomic]

7 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

Let me quote myself here.

 

 

 

Previous version of this argument.

Another version of this argument.

Another quote from me.

 

 

 

Oh there is more. IIRK there is at least 6 different conversations I took part in on this forum last year about this same issue. Firearms. Guns ... oh it never ends. One in July, August, September & December. I cant remember all of them but if you search hard enough you can find them.

 

 

 

Maybe because it's an ongoing issue there?

It's a never ending parade of people arguing about the benefits of gun control while Americans block their ears while shout "LA LA LA FREEDUM 'MERICA!".

[mathijs727]

Colombine highschool.........

 

Giving students guns is the worste idea I've heard in some time, but than again, I'm european.

[SansVarnic]

7 minutes ago, killcomic said:

Maybe because it's an ongoing issue there?

It's a never ending parade of people arguing about the benefits of gun control while Americans block their ears while shout "LA LA LA FREEDUM 'MERICA!".

True but there was and still is a reason why the founders put that specific amendment into the Constitution. It is still quite relevant needless to say. History plays a huge part as to why it is so ingrained. Other countries/people can say what they want but at least in the US people will have the ability because of this right to be able to fight back if the government becomes tyrannical.

[killcomic]

11 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

True but there was and still is a reason why the founders put that specific amendment into the Constitution. It is still quite relevant needless to say. History plays a huge part as to why it is so ingrained. Other countries/people can say what they want but at least in the US people will have the ability because of this right to be able to fight back if the government becomes tyrannical.

That's all cute and all but that's all a load of crap, isn't it? I mean, in the USA, you guys get bent over by your government and large corporations and you guys just take it, then ask for more. Your guns aren't exactly helping, aren't they?

There many countries that are freer than the USA and they don't even sleep with guns under their pillows. And what's more, many have deposed of tyrannical governments without a shot being fired. 

I understand the USA is an insulated country with little to no real notion of the rest of the world, but really, it would really help if Americans would educate themselves a bit on things which are not America.

[RocketFarmer]

I am guessing that some outside the US think the country is all wild west or gangland.  Some places it is, but most of the country is pretty peaceful and people aren't waving guns around.  In fact, most of the people who do carry aren't looking to draw their weapon unless it's absolutely necessary. 

 

In fact the vision of the old wild west is more of a Hollywood invention.  A movie might plug in a decade worth of real life incidents from the old west into a few days of story.

[stconquest]

2 minutes ago, killcomic said:

That's all cute and all but that's all a load of crap, isn't it? I mean, in the USA you guys get bent over by your government and large corporations, and you guys just take it, then ask for more. Your guns aren't exactly helping, aren't they?

There many countries that are freer than the USA and they don't even sleep with guns under their pillows. And what's more, many have deposed of tyrannical governments without a shot being fired. 

I understand the USA is an insulated country with little to no real notion of the rest of the world, but really, it would really help if Americans would educate themselves a bit on things which are not America.

I have said it here before:  If I feel unsafe in my home, I open my front door for the night.

 

If I live through the night, I feel safe. 

[stconquest]

1 minute ago, RocketFarmer said:

I am guessing that some outside the US think the country is all wild west or gangland.  Some places it is, but most of the country is pretty peaceful and people aren't waving guns around.  In fact, most of the people who do carry aren't looking to draw their weapon unless it's absolutely necessary. 

 

In fact the vision of the old wild west is more of a Hollywood invention.  A movie might plug in a decade worth of real life incidents from the old west into a few days of story.

Did not some towns relinquish a visitor's firearms back in the "wild west"?

[SansVarnic]

11 minutes ago, killcomic said:

That's all cute and all but that's all a load of crap, isn't it? I mean, in the USA you guys get bent over by your government and large corporations, and you guys just take it, then ask for more. Your guns aren't exactly helping, aren't they?

There many countries that are freer than the USA and they don't even sleep with guns under their pillows. And what's more, many have deposed of tyrannical governments without a shot being fired. 

I understand the USA is an insulated country with little to no real notion of the rest of the world, but really, it would really help if Americans would educate themselves a bit on things which are not America.

There is an unfortunate truth to what you said. 

Problem is the last 2 generations have allowed themselves to become ... ignorant to this. It will probably take another generation to realize the truth and a revolt may take place. *shrugs* The fact you think that other countries are free'r is not necessarily true in the terms we speak of here. A false pretense of security is not a reality of freedom but a perception of that which is really a form of governmental imprisonment.

Thing is what I said is very strong point and historically correct including everything I said in the other threads way back when. The rest of the world can shove it as far I am concerned when it come to firearms and how they should be "controlled".

 

6 minutes ago, stconquest said:

Did not some towns relinquish a visitor's firearms back in the "wild west"?

Some. But that was a local law enacted by local sheriffs acting on the majoriy of the towns folk requests due to the high number of killings at the time and fear of "guman". This period of time was short lived though, roughly about the 10 years after the civil war.

[SansVarnic]

Good night I will be back tomorrow.  

[Zodiark1593]

8 minutes ago, RocketFarmer said:

I am guessing that some outside the US think the country is all wild west or gangland.  Some places it is, but most of the country is pretty peaceful and people aren't waving guns around.  In fact, most of the people who do carry aren't looking to draw their weapon unless it's absolutely necessary. 

 

In fact the vision of the old wild west is more of a Hollywood invention.  A movie might plug in a decade worth of real life incidents from the old west into a few days of story.

Perhaps the Europeans have seen the old Bugs Bunny cartoons and have equated the average gun owner to Yosemite Sam. Or perhaps said cartoons highlights said gun culture. 

 

Regardless, the situation of Firearms regulation is unlikely to change dramatically anytime soon due to the process of adding ammendments to the US Constitution. More precisely, a requirement of either 2/3rd of both the Senate and House to approve an ammendment, or a constitutional convention with 2/3rds the States voting to approve it, and (with one of the two above fulfilled) 38 of the 50 states ratifying the ammendment. As things stand now, you'd do better to buy some lottery tickets. 

[killcomic]

9 minutes ago, SansVarnic said:

There is an unfortunate truth to what you said. 

Problem is the last 2 generations have allowed themselves to become ... ignorant to this. It will probably take another generation to realize the truth and a revolt may take place. *shrugs* The fact you think that other countries are free'r is not necessarily true in the terms we speak of here. A false pretense of security is not a reality of freedom but a perception of that which is really a form of governmental imprisonment.

Thing is what I said is very strong point and historically correct including everything I said in the other threads way back when. The rest of the world can shove it as far I am concerned when it come to firearms and how they should be "controlled".

I believe the idea that Americans have of freedom is a corrupted version fabricated during the cold war. The idea that freedom and power should emerge from money, hence their love affair with being screwed over by corporations. There's an adoration of greed and selfishness. Where else in the world would people be positively gleeful at having homeless, working poor and people with no access to medical care like in the USA?

I'm sorry, but I believe that Americans have no idea what actual freedom is.

Freedom comes from fairness, accessibility and compassion, not from greed and selfishness. Then again, telling this to an American is like trying to teach quantum mechanics to a cat.

[Zodiark1593]

6 minutes ago, killcomic said:

I believe the idea that Americans have of freedom is a corrupted version fabricated during the cold war. The idea that freedom and power should emerge from money, hence their love affair with being screwed over by corporations. There's an adoration of greed and selfishness. Where else in the world would people be positively gleeful at having homeless, working poor and people with no access to medical care like in the USA?

I'm sorry, but I believe that Americans have no idea what actual freedom is.

Freedom comes from fairness, accessibility and compassion, not from greed and selfishness. Then again, telling this to an American is like trying to teach quantum mechanics to a cat.

A true Democratic or Republic system that relies on civilian involvement has the fundamental weak point of the education of said civilians. To operate as intended requires a well knowledged populace. As poorly educated people are more easily manipulated, a democratic system can become twisted by the knowledgeable few. As such, I believe that not just education, but a desire to learn among the populace is what a democratic system requires to function as intended. 

 

I agree that allowing base greed and selfishness to rule your life is not freedom. 

[killcomic]

5 minutes ago, Zodiark1593 said:

A true Democratic or Republic system that relies on civilian involvement has the fundamental weak point of the education of said civilians. To operate as intended requires a well knowledged populace. As poorly educated people are more easily manipulated, a democratic system can become twisted by the knowledgeable few. As such, I believe that not just education, but a desire to learn among the populace is what a democratic system requires to function as intended. 

 

I agree that allowing base greed and selfishness to rule your life is not freedom. 

Absolutely. There's a reason why business groups and right wing governments always try to price education out of reach of anyone but the very rich.

An educated population cannot be fooled. That's why I think the Soviet Union collapsed. Too many educated people that couldn't be fooled.

In fact, I think I should have added education or knowledge as one of the principles of freedom (even I thought I covered it with 'accessibility').

[CantThinkOfAUserName]

53 minutes ago, killcomic said:

Guns are not toys, they are tools built and design for a specific purpose and they should be treated as such. There's a reason why most civilised countries place regulations on gun ownership. 

They have recreational uses and therefore are toys and weapons depending on how they are used. Just a really dangerous toy that you have to be responsible with so you don't hurt any one. Skeet shooting, range shooting are all purposes for guns not just killing. I should be able to have a 100 round mag for a .22 to just piss away on a target cause it's fun. Hence the majority of people who like guns don't just buy them for defence they buy them for something to do as well. Shooting is just fun to people maybe not you but to others it is. Meh shouldn't be restricted on what people do for fun. What is strange is you can legally buy a air gun that can be made to fire full auto that shoots a metal projectile with enough force to kill yet you don't need to register it because it's not classified as a fire arm. Only difference is the gun powder. I'm not a villain and other people aren't villains either we shouldn't have our fun/hobbies taken away because of a few bad apples. 

[stconquest]

24 minutes ago, killcomic said:

Absolutely. There's a reason why business groups and right wing governments always try to price education out of reach of anyone but the very rich.

An educated population cannot be fooled. That's why I think the Soviet Union collapsed. Too many educated people that couldn't be fooled.

In fact, I think I should have added education or knowledge as one of the principles of freedom (even I thought I covered it with 'accessibility').

I think I got this down:

 

1.  Access to clean water.

 

2.  Access to clean food.

 

3.  Respect for life.  <<Just don't harm others needlessly

 

4.  Access to education.  <<When the first three criteria are met, this is the icing on the cake

 

I believe that that encompasses everything we need as a society in order to thrive, to be free.  If any component fails out right, we don't thrive... maybe survive, but in a more stagnant state.

 

The idea in my mind is to make it as simple as possible.  So when I see ideology that ignores/undermines one of these rules, I can ferociously mock it. 

[killcomic]

34 minutes ago, CantThinkOfAUserName said:

They have recreational uses and therefore are toys and weapons depending on how they are used. Just a really dangerous toy that you have to be responsible with so you don't hurt any one. Skeet shooting, range shooting are all purposes for guns not just killing. I should be able to have a 100 round mag for a .22 to just piss away on a target cause it's fun. Hence the majority of people who like guns don't just buy them for defence they buy them for something to do as well. Shooting is just fun to people maybe not you but to others it is. Meh shouldn't be restricted on what people do for fun. What is strange is you can legally buy a air gun that can be made to fire full auto that shoots a metal projectile with enough force to kill yet you don't need to register it because it's not classified as a fire arm. Only difference is the gun powder. I'm not a villain and other people aren't villains either we shouldn't have our fun/hobbies taken away because of a few bad apples. 

That's pretty selfish of you.

[killcomic]

20 minutes ago, stconquest said:

I think I got this down:

 

1.  Access to clean water.

 

2.  Access to clean food.

 

3.  Respect for life.  <<Just don't harm others needlessly

 

4.  Access to education.  <<When the first three criteria are met, this is the icing on the cake

 

I believe that that encompasses everything we need as a society in order to thrive, to be free.  If any component fails out right, we don't thrive... maybe survive, but in a more stagnant state.

 

The idea in my mind is to make it as simple as possible.  So when I see ideology that ignores/undermines one of these rules, I can ferociously mock it. 

Don't forget access to medical care. A basic human right.

And you know what? It should be that simple. Freedom is not rocket science. Everyone should understand what freedom is and how it relates to their rights as humans.

[AlTech]

On ‎11‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 5:22 AM, BingoFishy said:

Yeah but we might end up with more terrorists. It's just so easy to press a trigger people might not think hard enough about it.

The problem though is that not all guards have guns to deal with terrorists.

[stconquest]

1 hour ago, killcomic said:

Don't forget access to medical care. A basic human right.

And you know what? It should be that simple. Freedom is not rocket science. Everyone should understand what freedom is and how it relates to their rights as humans.

I did not forget it.  It is compounded into respect for life and education.  If we can't use our knowledge and effort to make one another's life easier and better, we are not worth much to ourselves.

[killcomic]

21 minutes ago, stconquest said:

I did not forget it.  It is compounded into respect for life and education.  If we can't use our knowledge and effort to make one another's life easier and better, we are not worth much to ourselves.

Right on! I couldn't have said it better myself.

[BingoFishy]

3 hours ago, AluminiumTech said:

The problem though is that not all guards have guns to deal with terrorists.

As long as the guards are trained/screened properly, I think that they should definitely have guns.